The **BOXING** thread Vol 2

[Turquoise]

Tickets were £300 each. Good seats. Steep but it's a good card and who knows how long it will be until GGG fights here again. Which means our room at the Dorchester is about the same, so it's all good. Just need to see if I can get a space for my car at the front of the hotel now ...

[tuscaneer]

smith looks a fair bit bigger than canelo

http://www.badlefthook.com/2016/7/19/12222838/cane...

[Birkin1932]

FredClogs said:

Well the Jazza Dickinson vs Rigondeaux was a bit of a let down, poor Jazza, that left hand of Rigo's is always cocked to go off though and I don't think his corner fancied it at all after the first two rounds... Here's Rigo doing some pad work, Cuban style...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLl61w_LB48

The lad broke his Jaw. Jazz is a warrior.

Not fancy it??

[FredClogs]

Birkin1932 said:

FredClogs said:

Well the Jazza Dickinson vs Rigondeaux was a bit of a let down, poor Jazza, that left hand of Rigo's is always cocked to go off though and I don't think his corner fancied it at all after the first two rounds... Here's Rigo doing some pad work, Cuban style...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLl61w_LB48

The lad broke his Jaw. Jazz is a warrior.

Not fancy it??

First thing to say is I've got massive respect for anyone who boxes at any level, but I just don't think Jazza or his team had the realisation of just how different Rigo was going to be, even compared to the other top pros around in Europe at that weight. Its about levels with all sports, and Rigo is on another level. We've all seen boxers go rounds and rounds with broken jaws, not advisable or necessary obviously, but had his corner thought he was within a mile of looking competitive they'd have given him another round or two at least, he obviously wanted to continue I think.

If you watch the fight back you'll see the jaw break was in the first round (I think) and was the first real left from rigo, the corners advice was to step back when the left was thrown at the end of the first but he's so quick and the left thrown with so few tells it was like a turkey shoot for rigo... Sorry but that's the way I saw it

[Yiliterate]

Wow, there's probably a thousand and one things on which Frank Warren and Eddie Hearn disagree...but what it's like trying to deal with Chris Eubank Snr certainly ain't one of them!!!! Don't think I've ever seen either man so exasperated...essential viewing!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOVzLDSq9qU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUzPkDdyjzo


Got to say, I genuinely fear for Jnr's career...what promoter worth his salt is going to want to deal with them now?!

[Yiliterate]

Well, he wasn't always my cup of tea as a commentator but a great fighter nevertheless and has had one or two bits of appalling luck over the years, so I wish Jim Watt a long/happy retirement.

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/boxing...

Edited by Yiliterate on Friday 22 July 22:26

[Yiliterate]

Just scintillating stuff from Crawford. Easily top 5 pound-for-pound now; might just be the best of the lot. The fight reminded me a bit of the Rigondeaux-Donaire match-up in terms of having the best two fighters in the division face off and one fighter being so good that the other can barely land a glove on him, no matter how hard he tries. A rare, rare talent...

[gadgetmac]

Kell v GGG

There are an increasing number of pros coming out and saying Brook v GGG shouldn't be happening. Malignaggi is tweeting that the growing lack of respect for the weight divisions in boxing is going to end up with someone getting killed. Broner is likewise saying that we all know Kell is warrior but this fight is just too much and that Kell's people aren't looking after him like they should. This fight is effectively like Joshua or Wlad fighting a light heavyweight they are saying and this trend towards these weight mis-matches is not going to end well for somebody at some point in the near future.

[mikebradford]

I can to a degree see their point.
But the reality is when you have fighters who should be facing off, Canelo v GGG
And its obvious Canelo deliberatley chose not to take the fight it all becomes BS

Cant help think that Mayweather is partially responsible in that he deliberately chased the dollars rather than the fights

Its all well building a fight but ultimately the results mean less when fighters wait until they are sure of beating the other, usually due to one of them going past their best.

[Turquoise]

Blame the pricks like Canelo and Eubank Jr who waste everyone's time, not Brook or GGG.

[gadgetmac]

The fighters will, what with it being their profession and their reason for being, fight anybody. In the case of Kell v GGG the man who made the match is Eddie Hearn and frankly if it goes tits up he should shoulder most of the blame.

Their is a pefectly reasonable argument that fighters have to be protected from themselves and Hearn rang Kell and almost goaded him into the fight.

"Eubank/GGG is off, it's a real shame you don't want some of it Kell, there are millions to be made, same deal as Eubank".

"Of course I want it Eddie, I told you that before, I'll take the offer and sign now mate".

IMO Hearn, who isn't a boxer but IS in it for the "pound notes" (as he freely admits) should be looking out for Kells health primarily and fails him here taking the line of least resistance (having struggled with Eubank Snr for weeks) and most cash.

I'm really looking forward to the fight but I have to say I'm seriously concerned about the outcome and just pray they both walk away from it. However, that in itself will only encourage more of this type of match up.

[Yiliterate]

Kell is a massive Welterweight. He could very easily have been campaigning the last couple of years at Light Middleweight and if he had been, there wouldn't be half the comments made about him stepping up. Also, Golovkin isn't a big Middleweight himself (though he clearly is a heavy-handed one)...in all honesty, I'd be surprised if there was more that 4-5lbs weight difference between then when they step in the ring. If so, Kell would be giving away 2-3% as a proportion of bodyweight. To put that into context, when Haye fought Wlad, he gave away 30lbs, which meant Wlad was c14% heavier than Haye. And while plenty of people said Haye wasn't big enough to win it, I can't remember anyone saying the fight shouldn't go ahead because of the size differential. Why? Because despite one being 213lbs and the other 243lbs, both carried the moniker 'Heavyweight'; however, because Kell is stepping up two divisions, it's being though of by some as a suicide mission.

Regarding the comment above about it being like a Light Heavyweight stepping up to fight AJ or Wlad, clearly it isn't anything of the sort (while even that size of step-up is not unheard of...Roy Jones Jr. being the most recent example), and I also couldn't help but notice Adrien Broner had no qualms about stepping up two weight divisions himself when he vacated his WBC Lightweight belt to fight for the WBA Welterweight title...

Edited by Yiliterate on Sunday 24th July 23:39

[lord trumpton]

Turquoise said:

Blame the pricks like Canelo and Eubank Jr who waste everyone's time, not Brook or GGG.

I'd be aiming the criticism at De la Hoya and Eubank Snr rather than the boxers.

Oscar wants to cling on to his upcoming fighter and wring every once of dollar from him. Sticking him in with Golovkin too soon would ruin much of his future earnings from the boxer. He seems happy to keep the fight idea afloat, allow anticipation to build and also for GGG to age further past his peak.

Eubank Snr - well what can one say after listening to Hearn and Warren. He sounds like he is as deluded as his aspirations to appear upper class.

[Having A Barth]

Look at GGG size wise next to Brook and there is not a great deal of difference. Brook looks stockier and GGG a bit lankier and slightly taller. Not much in it if you ask me. Compare that to the size, shape and weight differences in the heavyweights.......

GGG is just a dangerous man with a crazy KO % against some very handy fighters in that division. The move up had to come for Brook anyway as he just wasn't getting the fights at Welterweight for whatever reason.

[FredClogs]

I'm not sure size and weight are going to be as big a factor for Kell as they were for Khan. Kell claims to have struggled to sweat down for the Welterweight for years and he would have moved up anyway I think pretty soon, it's not the same as Khan who had to bulk to put the extra stone on and was fighting a guy who cuts hard to make the 155. I think Kell's biggest issue is going to be experience, big fight night experience especially, Khan had a quite long and prestigious history of top names and big events behind him this is Kell's biggest night by far, that said I'm sure Kell can hold it together, he's the real deal, and there is loads and loads of experience and support around his gym setup to guide him through. I'm starting to think we might see a different Kell Brook altogether and whilst you'd never bet against GGG I think this could be one of his hardest fights as well.

[lionelf]

Yiliterate said:

Kell is a massive Welterweight. He could very easily have been campaigning the last couple of years at Light Middleweight and if he had been, there wouldn't be half the comments made about him stepping up.

I think the counter argument might be that although he could "have been campaigning the last couple of years at Light Middleweight" he wasn't. And in any case, Light Middleweight isn't Middleweight.

He's never been hit, squarely anywhere on the head, by a light middleweight let alone a full blown middleweight let alone GGG. This is his first foray into a ring with a heavy hitting middleweight and we don't know about his resistance to this.

Personally, I'd like to see all fighters who move up to challenge for a world title have at least 1 or 2 fights at that weight first just to demonstrate that they are able to mix it at that weight and can take the heavier punches that will come their way. What's happening now and what I think the other pro's are concerned about is that we won't know anything about the any potential consequences of Kell getting hit by a middleweight until he actually gets hit by the most devastating middleweight on the planet.

Anyway, fingers crossed.

Of course, now that I've said all that Kell will obviously knock seven bells out of him in the first round

Edited by lionelf on Monday 25th July 15:40

[Yiliterate]

lionelf said:

I think the counter argument might be that although he could "have been campaigning the last couple of years at Light Middleweight" he wasn't. And in any case, Light Middleweight isn't Middleweight.

True – he wasn’t; but the counter-argument to that is that he has, in all likelihood, been keeping himself at an artificially low weight just because Welterweight was where the action has been for the last 3-4yrs (being the division of Mayweather, Pacquiao, Khan, Bradley, etc, etc), whereas Light-Middleweight has been a moribund division, thanks in no small part to Mayweather holding two of the belts and never bothering to do anything with them. Consequently – and I appreciate this is conjecture – Brook has probably spent the last couple of years fighting below his peak level because of the struggle to get down to 147lbs. Based on that, my expectation is that Brook would have been an even more effective Light-Middleweight than Welterweight and, had that been the case, there would be a lot less in the way of eyebrows raised at Brook now stepping up to take on Golovkin.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying the move isn’t without appreciable risk and, in an ideal world, I would have preferred Brook to have had at least one massive fight at Welterweight this summer (unless of course getting down to 147lbs had come too detrimental) and then maybe gone via a Liam Smith type opponent at the end of the year before looking to take on Golovkin in 2017. The issue I have, though, is that a lot of the consternation seems to be based on it being a step-up of two divisions; while I’m not dismissing that as a factor, I think, in itself, it's being over-emphasised (and, as an aside, I feel some of that verges on the hypocritical as similar or greater disparities that frequently occur in the Heavyweight division essentially go without comment, apparently for no better reason than it’s a single division so just par for the course).

Edited by Yiliterate on Monday 25th July 11:43

[Gerradi]

If Ward can have tune up fights ,why not Brook ?

[lionelf]

Yiliterate said:

I feel some of that verges on the hypocritical as similar or greater disparities that frequently occur in the Heavyweight division essentially go without comment, apparently for no better reason than it’s a single division so just par for the course.

Interesting.

These are the different upper limits for the various weight classes (per Google)

Heavyweight (200+ lbs)
Cruiserweight (200 lbs)
Light heavyweight (175 lbs)
Super middleweight (168 lbs)
Middleweight (160 lbs)
Light middleweight (154 lbs)

So you have to ask why the Heavyweight class can encompasses such a weight differential between 2 opponents (7 stone in the case of Haye v Valuev) yet the other classes are all very narrow by comparison and demand that the fighters boil down if even only 1lb over the limit.

Is it because proportionately Valuev doesn't hit that much harder than a Super Middleweight or perhaps his victim (who would also be a heavyweight albeit a few stone lighter) won't be as proportionately impacted/affected by the force?

What I do know is that I'm far more concerned at Brook being beaten senseless by a true Middleweight than I was at Haye being battered by Valuev - and it just "feels right" to hold that view when I see them in the ring even if I can't scientifically explain why. More importantly why is that differential sanctioned by the world governing bodies as (presumably) safe to fight at whilst the other weights have to meet such strict criteria.

[FredClogs]

lionelf said:

Interesting.

These are the different upper limits for the various weight classes (per Google)

Heavyweight (200+ lbs)
Cruiserweight (200 lbs)
Light heavyweight (175 lbs)
Super middleweight (168 lbs)
Middleweight (160 lbs)
Light middleweight (154 lbs)

So you have to ask why the Heavyweight class can encompasses such a weight differential between 2 opponents (7 stone in the case of Haye v Valuev) yet the other classes are all very narrow by comparison and demand that the fighters boil down if even only 1lb over the limit.

Is it because proportionately Valuev doesn't hit that much harder than a Super Middleweight or perhaps his victim (who would also be a heavyweight albeit a few stone lighter) won't be as proportionately impacted/affected by the force?

What I do know is that I'm far more concerned at Brook being beaten senseless by a true Middleweight than I was at Haye being battered by Valuev - and it just "feels right" to hold that view when I see them in the ring even if I can't scientifically explain why. More importantly why is that differential sanctioned by the world governing bodies as (presumably) safe to fight at whilst the other weights have to meet such strict criteria.

All the interim weights, were created in the late 60s, 70s and early 80s as a response to the proliferation of governing bodies and the era that was the Golden Age of boxing in terms of competition, also I think the fact that the heavyweights above 200lbs aren't sub divided any more is just a reflection of how many humans of that size are able to be competitive at boxing, there's a point of diminishing returns because good boxing isn't just about lumping people as hard as you can or lying on them.

There may also have been some safety concerns which led to the intro of new weight classes but not for the reasons of guys taking beatings (the refs are there to stop that) but in terms of people making huge weight cuts and entering the ring dehydrated. There's plenty of fighters who have gone up from Welter to Light Heavy, Manny P has put on over 3st in his pro career, if I were involved with Kell Brook or knew him personally I'd be much happier him going up than doing a huge water cut and risking taking big head shots dehydrated.

There is an inch in height between Kell and Golovkin but Kell has a longer reach, and I whilst GGG has a huge KO record I pretty confident in saying his record is because of his excellent skill, ability and accuracy not huge bombing concussive punches, what'll lose the fight for Kell is not the size or weight difference, which arguably did for Khan.