The **BOXING** thread Vol 2
Discussion
Yiliterate said:
Sorry, I'm in the other camp (ooo-err!) on this one...I think Alvarez is doing the right thing.
Taking on Gennady Golovkin is possibly the most daunting challenge in boxing today. More than that, despite being a solid lump and irrespective of what belt he holds, Alvarez is naturally a Light-Middleweight…he’s only fought above 154lbs on a couple of occasions, both times at 155lbs. So he’d be taking on that mammoth task already at a disadvantage.
On the flip side, he also knows that with Cotto beaten (and showing little interest in staying at Middleweight anyway) and the big names at Super-Middle having either stepped up to Light-Heavy (Ward) or retired (Froch/Kessler), added to the fact that Golovkin has already gone through the rest of the Middleweight division like a dose of salts, he is the only really big fight on the horizon for GGG at the moment. Whereas, for Alvarez, there’s plenty to be doing at Light-Middle now that Mayweather’s retired and there are a few more belts to go after again. Also, time is on his side…he’s only 25 so it’s not like he’s in the last chance saloon for getting a(nother) big pay-day.
Therefore, from a negotiation perspective, Alvarez is holding pretty much all of the bargaining chips…so why wouldn’t he seek to get as many concessions as he can out of Golovkin?! Weight, venue, purse-split, officials, choice of gloves, whatever…if I were him, I’d be looking to get as many things tilted in my favour as I could before signing on the dotted line!
The problem for Alvarez is he holds the WBC Middleweight which is between 154 lbs - 160 lbs. If he's not willing to fight an opponent who is 160lbs then the WBC should strip him of the belt. From the WBC website:Taking on Gennady Golovkin is possibly the most daunting challenge in boxing today. More than that, despite being a solid lump and irrespective of what belt he holds, Alvarez is naturally a Light-Middleweight…he’s only fought above 154lbs on a couple of occasions, both times at 155lbs. So he’d be taking on that mammoth task already at a disadvantage.
On the flip side, he also knows that with Cotto beaten (and showing little interest in staying at Middleweight anyway) and the big names at Super-Middle having either stepped up to Light-Heavy (Ward) or retired (Froch/Kessler), added to the fact that Golovkin has already gone through the rest of the Middleweight division like a dose of salts, he is the only really big fight on the horizon for GGG at the moment. Whereas, for Alvarez, there’s plenty to be doing at Light-Middle now that Mayweather’s retired and there are a few more belts to go after again. Also, time is on his side…he’s only 25 so it’s not like he’s in the last chance saloon for getting a(nother) big pay-day.
Therefore, from a negotiation perspective, Alvarez is holding pretty much all of the bargaining chips…so why wouldn’t he seek to get as many concessions as he can out of Golovkin?! Weight, venue, purse-split, officials, choice of gloves, whatever…if I were him, I’d be looking to get as many things tilted in my favour as I could before signing on the dotted line!
"Middleweight world champion: Miguel Cotto (Puerto Rico)
Cotto is scheduled to make a voluntary title defense against No. 1 ranked former super welterweight world champion Canelo Alvarez on November 21, with the winner committed to make a mandatory defense against WBC interim champion Gennady Golovkin of Kazakhstan"
If he won't fight Golovkin, then hand over the belt and fight at light middleweight. Hopefully the WBC will force his hand.
The fact he knows GGG will in all probability knock him out does't change anything.
There's the sport of boxing and the business and unfortunately it's up to the boxing public to make the business case, and the majority of the money in boxing comes from the US and South America, where Canelo Alverez is a big ticket, I believe the Mayweather vs Alvarez fight was the biggest grossing event of all time hundreds of $millions (at the time), and frankly GGG is a crazy Kazak murderer who no one wants to pay to watch... Yet! I'm sure he's only one big vegas night away from capturing the US markets imagination but it may never happen and until it does no one is going to advise Alvarez to get in the ring with GGG. Personally I think he'd have a chance but he gives away a lot of size to GGG and it would be incredibly risky for not much reward.
Fittster said:
Yiliterate said:
Sorry, I'm in the other camp (ooo-err!) on this one...I think Alvarez is doing the right thing.
Taking on Gennady Golovkin is possibly the most daunting challenge in boxing today. More than that, despite being a solid lump and irrespective of what belt he holds, Alvarez is naturally a Light-Middleweight…he’s only fought above 154lbs on a couple of occasions, both times at 155lbs. So he’d be taking on that mammoth task already at a disadvantage.
On the flip side, he also knows that with Cotto beaten (and showing little interest in staying at Middleweight anyway) and the big names at Super-Middle having either stepped up to Light-Heavy (Ward) or retired (Froch/Kessler), added to the fact that Golovkin has already gone through the rest of the Middleweight division like a dose of salts, he is the only really big fight on the horizon for GGG at the moment. Whereas, for Alvarez, there’s plenty to be doing at Light-Middle now that Mayweather’s retired and there are a few more belts to go after again. Also, time is on his side…he’s only 25 so it’s not like he’s in the last chance saloon for getting a(nother) big pay-day.
Therefore, from a negotiation perspective, Alvarez is holding pretty much all of the bargaining chips…so why wouldn’t he seek to get as many concessions as he can out of Golovkin?! Weight, venue, purse-split, officials, choice of gloves, whatever…if I were him, I’d be looking to get as many things tilted in my favour as I could before signing on the dotted line!
The problem for Alvarez is he holds the WBC Middleweight which is between 154 lbs - 160 lbs. If he's not willing to fight an opponent who is 160lbs then the WBC should strip him of the belt. From the WBC website:Taking on Gennady Golovkin is possibly the most daunting challenge in boxing today. More than that, despite being a solid lump and irrespective of what belt he holds, Alvarez is naturally a Light-Middleweight…he’s only fought above 154lbs on a couple of occasions, both times at 155lbs. So he’d be taking on that mammoth task already at a disadvantage.
On the flip side, he also knows that with Cotto beaten (and showing little interest in staying at Middleweight anyway) and the big names at Super-Middle having either stepped up to Light-Heavy (Ward) or retired (Froch/Kessler), added to the fact that Golovkin has already gone through the rest of the Middleweight division like a dose of salts, he is the only really big fight on the horizon for GGG at the moment. Whereas, for Alvarez, there’s plenty to be doing at Light-Middle now that Mayweather’s retired and there are a few more belts to go after again. Also, time is on his side…he’s only 25 so it’s not like he’s in the last chance saloon for getting a(nother) big pay-day.
Therefore, from a negotiation perspective, Alvarez is holding pretty much all of the bargaining chips…so why wouldn’t he seek to get as many concessions as he can out of Golovkin?! Weight, venue, purse-split, officials, choice of gloves, whatever…if I were him, I’d be looking to get as many things tilted in my favour as I could before signing on the dotted line!
"Middleweight world champion: Miguel Cotto (Puerto Rico)
Cotto is scheduled to make a voluntary title defense against No. 1 ranked former super welterweight world champion Canelo Alvarez on November 21, with the winner committed to make a mandatory defense against WBC interim champion Gennady Golovkin of Kazakhstan"
If he won't fight Golovkin, then hand over the belt and fight at light middleweight. Hopefully the WBC will force his hand.
The fact he knows GGG will in all probability knock him out does't change anything.
Firstly, yes, Alvarez is obliged to defend his WBC Middleweight title against Gennady Golovkin...but what the above statement doesn't do is stipulate a specific weight at which that contest has to take place - and it's probably safe to assume that's because the WBC would have no objection to sanctioning the fight at any particular weight between 154-160lbs, as long as both parties were in agreement (i.e. exactly what happened when the WBC initially sanctioned the fight between Canelo and Cotto for the Middleweight title at 155lbs).
Fair enough, if a fight can't be agreed within the stipulated time period because Alvarez won't fight at 160lbs and Golovkin doesn't want to compromise (as is his right), then undoubtedly the WBC would strip Alvarez and give the belt to Golovkin (as they said they would do if Cotto won last Saturday)...but the WBC won't want to do that unless absolutely necessary because they would lose out on sanctioning fees. This would be a particular concern for them in this instance because, as Cotto made clear last week, as far as the WBC goes, the bigger the fight, the bigger the sanctioning fee they look to charge. So, until that time is up, they'll be happy to allow the two camps to try and thrash out a deal between them...
Also, somewhat ironically, your insistence that Alvarez should be forced to fight Golovkin at 160lbs or forfeit the belt would more likely to be of greater concern to GGG than Canelo. On a like-for-like basis, Alvarez is probably a bigger draw at the moment than Golovkin and would seem to have more interesting options at 154lbs than Golovkin has at either 160lbs or 168lbs. In terms of the belt itself, well, Golovkin is already recognised as the best Middleweight in the world so having one more belt won't make that much difference to him, while Canelo is now a two-weight champion and that can't be taken away from him, irrespective of what happens to the belt he currently holds. So, in short, Golovkin would appear to have more to lose by this fight not going ahead that does Canelo...and that's without factoring in what you believe to be the likely outcome of the fight! So who's to say that Golovkin wouldn't be willing to make a concession on weight to secure the bout?! If I were in his shoes, I think I'd at least like to have the opportunity to see what could be negotiated...!
FredClogs said:
There's the sport of boxing and the business and unfortunately it's up to the boxing public to make the business case, and the majority of the money in boxing comes from the US and South America, where Canelo Alverez is a big ticket, I believe the Mayweather vs Alvarez fight was the biggest grossing event of all time hundreds of $millions (at the time), and frankly GGG is a crazy Kazak murderer who no one wants to pay to watch... Yet! I'm sure he's only one big vegas night away from capturing the US markets imagination but it may never happen and until it does no one is going to advise Alvarez to get in the ring with GGG. Personally I think he'd have a chance but he gives away a lot of size to GGG and it would be incredibly risky for not much reward.
Yep, good summary...ETA: ...except, I just remembered that I actually paid quite a considerable amount of money to watch GGG a few weeks ago!!!
Edited by Yiliterate on Thursday 26th November 21:20
Yiliterate said:
Yep, good summary...
ETA: ...except, I just remembered that I actually paid quite a considerable amount of money to watch GGG a few weeks ago!!!
But you're an educated connoisseur, the big money comes from getting $15 from every bud swilling armchair expert from Buenos Aires to Alaska...ETA: ...except, I just remembered that I actually paid quite a considerable amount of money to watch GGG a few weeks ago!!!
Edited by Yiliterate on Thursday 26th November 21:20
Yiliterate said:
Golovkin is already recognised as the best Middleweight in the world so having one more belt won't make that much difference to him,
All GGG ever says is that he wants all the M/weight belts, he does not care who holds them but he wants them all...so I guess he would care.Gerradi said:
Yiliterate said:
Golovkin is already recognised as the best Middleweight in the world so having one more belt won't make that much difference to him,
All GGG ever says is that he wants all the M/weight belts, he does not care who holds them but he wants them all...so I guess he would care.FredClogs said:
Yiliterate said:
Yep, good summary...
ETA: ...except, I just remembered that I actually paid quite a considerable amount of money to watch GGG a few weeks ago!!!
But you're an educated connoisseur, the big money comes from getting $15 from every bud swilling armchair expert from Buenos Aires to Alaska...ETA: ...except, I just remembered that I actually paid quite a considerable amount of money to watch GGG a few weeks ago!!!
Edited by Yiliterate on Thursday 26th November 21:20
Edited by Yiliterate on Friday 27th November 07:18
2hoots said:
I just can't see how Fury winning would be good for boxing, either in or out of the ring.
Because you'd certainly, sorry, definiately not have one champion for the next 10 years! As much as I appreciate the K2s, they're not that engaging for the casuals which boxing need.
Well Fury must have done his promo job well because for the first time in ages we talked about boxing down the pub last night! Mostly lamenting the good old days when the whole nation was up for a primetime fight (Bruno, McGuigan, Honeyghan) on mainstream TV. Whatever happened to that?
So we're all now interested in the fight...but not sure £17 interested, may change after a few sherbets tomorrow though.
We always overrate our guys, Klitschko to win easily round 3 or 4.
(This board is a great read btw. Also good to have some insight from those who have been in a ring and taken one on the schnozzle! Doesn't it flipping hurt?)
So we're all now interested in the fight...but not sure £17 interested, may change after a few sherbets tomorrow though.
We always overrate our guys, Klitschko to win easily round 3 or 4.
(This board is a great read btw. Also good to have some insight from those who have been in a ring and taken one on the schnozzle! Doesn't it flipping hurt?)
Northbloke said:
Well Fury must have done his promo job well because for the first time in ages we talked about boxing down the pub last night! Mostly lamenting the good old days when the whole nation was up for a primetime fight (Bruno, McGuigan, Honeyghan) on mainstream TV. Whatever happened to that?
So we're all now interested in the fight...but not sure £17 interested, may change after a few sherbets tomorrow though.
We always overrate our guys, Klitschko to win easily round 3 or 4.
(This board is a great read btw. Also good to have some insight from those who have been in a ring and taken one on the schnozzle! Doesn't it flipping hurt?)
Has always been a good board, unlike picking throught the 'specials' over on boxing24 fairly reasoned and well thought out responses. So we're all now interested in the fight...but not sure £17 interested, may change after a few sherbets tomorrow though.
We always overrate our guys, Klitschko to win easily round 3 or 4.
(This board is a great read btw. Also good to have some insight from those who have been in a ring and taken one on the schnozzle! Doesn't it flipping hurt?)
Yiliterate said:
dirty boy said:
Hi 
Have you missed me?
Can't believe I've missed Vol 2 for so long
Hang about...don't you still owe us some photos from that fancy dress party we helped you out with on the night of the Mayweather/Pacquiao fight???!!!Have you missed me?
Can't believe I've missed Vol 2 for so long
Bloody hell Yil , you don't forget much!Do you know what, the rules were changed quickly to sports persons and I ended up going as a cyclist wearing full kit w
ker helmet and all.One dude turned up as the best Don King I've ever seen...spot on. I'm digging for photos on my phone but can't see any.
Vitali pretty much sums it up on sky.
""Wladimir and I have had a lot of speakers in our boxing careers. They promise so much and start fighting with words. But boxing is discussion between two gentlemen with fists - not words. That's why Wladimir is a good speaker."
I'm getting worried now there is a risk my £17 is going to buy me 90 seconds of boxing action.
""Wladimir and I have had a lot of speakers in our boxing careers. They promise so much and start fighting with words. But boxing is discussion between two gentlemen with fists - not words. That's why Wladimir is a good speaker."
I'm getting worried now there is a risk my £17 is going to buy me 90 seconds of boxing action. Edited by m4tti on Friday 27th November 17:22
m4tti said:
Vitali pretty much sums it up on sky.
""Wladimir and I have had a lot of speakers in our boxing careers. They promise so much and start fighting with words. But boxing is discussion between two gentlemen with fists - not words. That's why Wladimir is a good speaker."
I'm getting worried now there is a risk my £17 is going to buy me 90 seconds of boxing action.
Well, someone was saying on here a day or two back they'd got WK in rounds 1-3 at 18/1...fairly easy for you to lay off that PPV value-for-money risk!""Wladimir and I have had a lot of speakers in our boxing careers. They promise so much and start fighting with words. But boxing is discussion between two gentlemen with fists - not words. That's why Wladimir is a good speaker."
I'm getting worried now there is a risk my £17 is going to buy me 90 seconds of boxing action. Edited by m4tti on Friday 27th November 17:22
dirty boy said:
Yiliterate said:
dirty boy said:
Hi
Have you missed me?
Can't believe I've missed Vol 2 for so long
Hang about...don't you still owe us some photos from that fancy dress party we helped you out with on the night of the Mayweather/Pacquiao fight???!!!Have you missed me?
Can't believe I've missed Vol 2 for so long
Bloody hell Yil , yoyu don't forget much!Do you know what, the rules were changed quickly to sports persons and I ended up going as a cyclist wearing full kit w
ker helmet and all.One dude turned up as the best Don King I've ever seen...spot on. I'm digging for photos on my phone but can't see any.
t like that! Where I put the car keys 5 minutes ago, though, a complete sodding mystery...!Seem to recall Don King was the popular choice on here for you to go as! If the other guy nailed it though, maybe for the best you went as someone else!
m4tti said:
Yiliterate said:
Well, someone was saying on here a day or two back they'd got WK in rounds 1-3 at 18/1...fairly easy for you to lay off that PPV value-for-money risk!
Do we know who's offering those odds. That has to be worth a tenner and I've never bet on anything before Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff