The **BOXING** thread Vol 2

[Tonberry]

Cheers Fred, great analysis.

My problem is not so much who can take a hit but who has the stamina to go the distance (round 4+) without fading off and leaving themselves open.

I feel it'll go one of two ways. Both fighters cautious, conserving energy, using jabs and keeping distance at least initially.

Or, both of them coming out swinging like the Quillin - Jacobs fight. In which case conditioning will pay off until one of them is dead on their feet. Based on conditioning that'll be Whyte if Joshua is mentally up for it.

Obviously I'm no pro and probably talking out of my arse so we'll see.

The only thing tempting me to throw a few quid in is the great odds for Whyte but I do think Joshua will do him so I won't waste the cash.

[andburg]

any rumours on who del boy will be against on the 12th?

[Fittster]

FredClogs said:

Tonberry said:

Some ridiculous odds on Whyte, you're right.

Especially if you fancy picking the round or going for a group. 28/1 rounds 4-6.

I bet on Fury to beat Klitschko (against advice from pretty much everyone) but I wouldn't bet on Whyte to beat Joshua.

RE: People are going on about "chins" being tested.. Here's what I think - Modern heavyweight boxing isn't about testing peoples chins, the days of Ali vs Frazier where heavyweight boxers were 6ft and 14 stone and would bang for 12 rounds (or even 15) have gone, these days you can have a chin made of granite, the boys are so big and so strong and so well prep'd at the highest level if you get hit square you're staying hit with anything other than pawing jabs, you won't see a heavyweight boxer in the modern era taking punishment on the chin like they used to, at least not for long, the refs will step in.

So it comes down to who can move well on their feet, control the distance, keep a good defense when tired, switch to the body well and keep their head moving as well as control the emotions of the event. For me Joshua seems to have it all and he's ice cold in and out the ring... It's a non contest, put your money on Joshua, round 2.

I still think a heavyweights chin is something worth considering. For my first witness I call David Price, a fighter on the same trajectory as Joshua, until he fought his first serious opponent in Tony Thompson, who KO'ed him easily. Now you can argue that it wasn't his chin that let Price down rather his lack of movement which was found out by a quality opponent but considering Prices's amateur success I don't think his technique can have been that bad.

For my second witness I call David Tau. I don't think it would controversial to say Lennox Lewis was one of the best heavyweights of all time and a big puncher. He spent 12 rounds hitting Tau chin with little effect.

I'm of the opinion that different fighters have different levels of ability to withstand punishment and that effects the outcome of fights.

Although modern heavyweights are giants at 6 ft 6 in+, there were plenty of big men about in the golden age who hit hard, George Foreman was 6 ft 4 in, Gerry Conney was 6ft 6in (his generations Price?),

[FredClogs]

Fittster said:

FredClogs said:

Tonberry said:

Some ridiculous odds on Whyte, you're right.

Especially if you fancy picking the round or going for a group. 28/1 rounds 4-6.

I bet on Fury to beat Klitschko (against advice from pretty much everyone) but I wouldn't bet on Whyte to beat Joshua.

RE: People are going on about "chins" being tested.. Here's what I think - Modern heavyweight boxing isn't about testing peoples chins, the days of Ali vs Frazier where heavyweight boxers were 6ft and 14 stone and would bang for 12 rounds (or even 15) have gone, these days you can have a chin made of granite, the boys are so big and so strong and so well prep'd at the highest level if you get hit square you're staying hit with anything other than pawing jabs, you won't see a heavyweight boxer in the modern era taking punishment on the chin like they used to, at least not for long, the refs will step in.

So it comes down to who can move well on their feet, control the distance, keep a good defense when tired, switch to the body well and keep their head moving as well as control the emotions of the event. For me Joshua seems to have it all and he's ice cold in and out the ring... It's a non contest, put your money on Joshua, round 2.

I still think a heavyweights chin is something worth considering. For my first witness I call David Price, a fighter on the same trajectory as Joshua, until he fought his first serious opponent in Tony Thompson, who KO'ed him easily. Now you can argue that it wasn't his chin that let Price down rather his lack of movement which was found out by a quality opponent but considering Prices's amateur success I don't think his technique can have been that bad.

For my second witness I call David Tau. I don't think it would controversial to say Lennox Lewis was one of the best heavyweights of all time and a big puncher. He spent 12 rounds hitting Tau chin with little effect.

I'm of the opinion that different fighters have different levels of ability to withstand punishment and that effects the outcome of fights.

Although modern heavyweights are giants at 6 ft 6 in+, there were plenty of big men about in the golden age who hit hard, George Foreman was 6 ft 4 in, Gerry Conney was 6ft 6in (his generations Price?),

You might be right, Audley Harrison also springs to mind, but I think he and Price suffered from getting hit rather than any particular weakness in their chins/necks or ability to stave of concussion via the power of their wills, but I agree there are guys out there who can take more, I'm just not convinced at heavyweight it's a question of chin more just a good skill set when it comes to head movement just taking the sting off the punch. I dunno, and am certainly not going to ask for first hand experience from a guy like Joshua....

Not many went rounds with George Foreman, 37 KOs and TKOs in his first 40 fights!!!! The vast majority inside 2 rounds... The man was a freak at the time, maybe of all time, 68KOs in 78 wins! That wasn't 68 men with bad chins, if Duran can knock a horse out Foreman would have taken the head clean off ;o)

[m4tti]

FredClogs said:

You might be right, Audley Harrison also springs to mind, but I think he and Price suffered from getting hit rather than any particular weakness in their chins/necks or ability to stave of concussion via the power of their wills, but I agree there are guys out there who can take more, I'm just not convinced at heavyweight it's a question of chin more just a good skill set when it comes to head movement just taking the sting off the punch. I dunno, and am certainly not going to ask for first hand experience from a guy like Joshua....

Not many went rounds with George Foreman, 37 KOs and TKOs in his first 40 fights!!!! The vast majority inside 2 rounds... The man was a freak at the time, maybe of all time, 68KOs in 78 wins! That wasn't 68 men with bad chins, if Duran can knock a horse out Foreman would have taken the head clean off ;o)

Both price and Audrey hated getting hit. They'd cover and freeze up. To the point where price in the second fight starts turning his back on Thompson. He's simply in the wrong sport. Maloney began to insinuate that it was partly Lennox Lewis's fault as price was never a Lewis and couldn't take the punishment. Lewis had been prepping him.

Conversely watch this. Mike Tyson sparring with no headgear at 17 against a much bigger guy. He gets hit, but his defence is awesome which like you say takes the sting from the shots. But he didn't mind getting hit, to an extent it seems to fuel him. Just look at that speed.

http://youtu.be/NNJwWWdCuVw

Even in this era dominated by tall jab and clinch fighters. I'm sure what you see in that link could still be devastating today

Edited by m4tti on Thursday 10th December 20:53

[mikebradford]

Easy to forget just how fast Mike Tyson was in his earlier career
Makes you realise some of the bigger heavyweights now rely on size and especially reach

Probably why Haye did so well, even smaller he simply had the speed to get past the majority of the ponderous big guys

And ultimately anyone over 16stone could potentially have enough power to put a 20st guy on his arse

Add in that Tyson had real power and id like to think he (in his earlier years) would clear out the current heavy weight division with relative ease

Edited by mikebradford on Thursday 10th December 21:39

[m4tti]

I must admit as a kid I was a big fan, but you watch him against tyrell Biggs over 7 rounds, an Olympiic gold medalist who's 6' 6. He wears him down and he crumples. He set out a road map to beat taller guys that's never been followed.

Unfortunately he lost the way. Still amazing. Have we seen another heavyweight since who can literally jump and change position instantly.

Edited by m4tti on Thursday 10th December 22:40

Edited by m4tti on Friday 11th December 09:00

[tuscaneer]

tyson was a phenominal talent as that video above shows. however, there is an aura around him that clouds a lot of peoples judgement. that video was made around the time lennox went to spar tyson in the catskills and look what happened there...after a bull rush first round lennox gained his composure and beat the st out of mike for the next 3 rounds.

if they had fought at any point amateur or pro lennox would have had the day. never mind all the chat that mike was spent when they actually did fight....of course he was but there would never be a time where lennox didn't measure him and keep him at the end of that big jab.

i went to an after dinner speaking event some years ago and met mike and had a photo with him. the guy is roughly the same size as me. i stood side by side with anthony joshua at a secret signing event which members of this board were deliberately deprived of being privvy to.....and the top of my head came up to the guy's neck. he's fking huge. his back, his arms, his hands....fk me he's a leviathan....

now pick mike up and drop him in with these monsters of the "super" heavyweight era and i'm not saying he wouldn't do well......but he would get tagged on the way in MUCH harder and MUCH more frequently.



as to george foreman......i just love that guy, not the most skilled practitioner of all time but big enough to compete in any era and with one punch power like that in both hands you'd better believe he could equalize any contest at any point in the fight. if Ali would have taken the rematch i think we''d have seen a different fight. Ali himself even said those tactics would work once and once only.

in any mythical top 10s of heavyweights big george has got to be right up there with the best

[andburg]

I think boxing needs modernising in its approach to heavyweights and a new weigh class created for these new monsters, 240lb limit for heavyweight limit before getting to the big men seems about right, most heavyweights could make this easily if they wanted to.

In 44 fight Lenox Lewis only fought a guy weighing in over 240lb on 6 occasions and weighed less than 240lb for his first 26 fights himself. Iron mike never made 240lb, spent most of his career around 220lb. Even Wladimir Klitschko weighed in under 240 for his first 32 pro fights but half of his last 20 opponents have been over 240lb.

[Alex]

mikebradford said:

Add in that Tyson had real power and id like to think he (in his earlier years) would clear out the current heavy weight division with relative ease

I agree. Tyson at his peak was invincible.

[pincher]

Yes, how come the Olympics has Heavyweight and Super Heavyweight classes but pro boxing doesn't? Wouldn't that be quite lucrative for the various federations?

On a side note, I'm still tempted to put a few quid on Whyte to beat Joshua, even though I don't think he will. Looks like he is about 8-1 at the moment. Joshua is the same odds to win inside two rounds.

[dirty boy]

That age old question that places fighters in different eras, we love to visit it.

As much as I thought Tyson was amazing, he'd have struggled with the likes of Vitali and I've no idea how prime Lewis and Tyson would have panned out, but it would sure be interesting.

Probably my biggest gripe with boxing these days is that you have 7lbs between weight divisions, but this huge jump at cruiserweight at 200 to big heavyweights. There's got to be something for that 14.5 stone mark up to say 16 stone IMO.

Anyway, Saturday night's alright for fighting!

AJ, Bellew, Paulie, Mitchell, Campbell, Eubank, McGregor

and ITFC on at midday

What a day lined up

[m4tti]

andburg said:

I think boxing needs modernising in its approach to heavyweights and a new weigh class created for these new monsters, 240lb limit for heavyweight limit before getting to the big men seems about right, most heavyweights could make this easily if they wanted to.

In 44 fight Lenox Lewis only fought a guy weighing in over 240lb on 6 occasions and weighed less than 240lb for his first 26 fights himself. Iron mike never made 240lb, spent most of his career around 220lb. Even Wladimir Klitschko weighed in under 240 for his first 32 pro fights but half of his last 20 opponents have been over 240lb.

I think seperating heavy weight and super heavy weight would certainly make things more interesting, as you'd see a lot more athleticism under the 240 mark and more jab and hold over it.

Can't decide to suck up the PPV tomorrow night or look for a stream.

Edited by m4tti on Friday 11th December 10:16

[andburg]

pincher said:

Yes, how come the Olympics has Heavyweight and Super Heavyweight classes but pro boxing doesn't? Wouldn't that be quite lucrative for the various federations?

On a side note, I'm still tempted to put a few quid on Whyte to beat Joshua, even though I don't think he will. Looks like he is about 8-1 at the moment. Joshua is the same odds to win inside two rounds.

Weight classes don't match up

Olympic super heavyweight is 91kg+ or 200lb+

Heavy at Olympic boxing is more akin to cruiserweight

[dirty boy]

m4tti said:

andburg said:

I think boxing needs modernising in its approach to heavyweights and a new weigh class created for these new monsters, 240lb limit for heavyweight limit before getting to the big men seems about right, most heavyweights could make this easily if they wanted to.

In 44 fight Lenox Lewis only fought a guy weighing in over 240lb on 6 occasions and weighed less than 240lb for his first 26 fights himself. Iron mike never made 240lb, spent most of his career around 220lb. Even Wladimir Klitschko weighed in under 240 for his first 32 pro fights but half of his last 20 opponents have been over 240lb.

I think seperating heavy weight and super heavy weight would certainly make things more interesting, as you'd see a lot more athleticism under the 240 mark and more jab and hold over it.

Can't decide to suck up the PPV tomorrow night or look for a stream.

Edited by m4tti on Friday 11th December 10:16

I think you'd see slighty, erm...chubbier big guys put a bit more effort in to drop into an achievable weight class and at least look the part

I'm sucking up on the PPV for Sky and UFC

[m4tti]

dirty boy said:

I think you'd see slighty, erm...chubbier big guys put a bit more effort in to drop into an achievable weight class and at least look the part

I'm sucking up on the PPV for Sky and UFC

Hahahah

I don't mind sucking up the PPV, but the Fury ppv was a complete debacle so I'm in two minds. I also find that events/ppv run out of the UK are hopelessly organised. So they run on to about 1 am... Bit like the PPV last year with fury vs chisora. By which time I've consumed 20 cans of lager and am struggling to keep the mince pies open.

The people that had paid tickets to watch ringside last year on the chisora vs fury card,, who were having to get up and leave to get the last tube must have been pretty pished off!

[mikebradford]

tuscaneer said:

as to george foreman......i just love that guy, not the most skilled practitioner of all time but big enough to compete in any era and with one punch power like that in both hands you'd better believe he could equalize any contest at any point in the fight. if Ali would have taken the rematch i think we''d have seen a different fight. Ali himself even said those tactics would work once and once only.

in any mythical top 10s of heavyweights big george has got to be right up there with the best

Totally agree
If we were able to have a mythical contest of all the greats.
With the results being a best of 3 fights between each fighter, to allow for any random lucky shots!
I believe Foreman would likely be the best heavy weight of all time.
As he in my mind would have the measure of Ali if their first fight was one of the 3.

[Yiliterate]

m4tti said:

andburg said:

I think boxing needs modernising in its approach to heavyweights and a new weigh class created for these new monsters, 240lb limit for heavyweight limit before getting to the big men seems about right, most heavyweights could make this easily if they wanted to.

In 44 fight Lenox Lewis only fought a guy weighing in over 240lb on 6 occasions and weighed less than 240lb for his first 26 fights himself. Iron mike never made 240lb, spent most of his career around 220lb. Even Wladimir Klitschko weighed in under 240 for his first 32 pro fights but half of his last 20 opponents have been over 240lb.

I think seperating heavy weight and super heavy weight would certainly make things more interesting, as you'd see a lot more athleticism under the 240 mark and more jab and hold over it.

In principle I think it makes good sense, but the concern is if the heavyweight division is already thin on talent (a common a gripe), dividing into two further exacerbates that situation. Also, if we assume Super-Heavyweight would end up being the 'glamour' division (if only for legacy reasons of it being where the biggest men fight), then you'd probably get a repeat of the situation we already have with the Cruiserweight division, where fighters like David Haye end up going outside of their 'natural' weight class anyway just to chase the bigger money fights...

[tuscaneer]

Yiliterate said:

m4tti said:

andburg said:

I think boxing needs modernising in its approach to heavyweights and a new weigh class created for these new monsters, 240lb limit for heavyweight limit before getting to the big men seems about right, most heavyweights could make this easily if they wanted to.

In 44 fight Lenox Lewis only fought a guy weighing in over 240lb on 6 occasions and weighed less than 240lb for his first 26 fights himself. Iron mike never made 240lb, spent most of his career around 220lb. Even Wladimir Klitschko weighed in under 240 for his first 32 pro fights but half of his last 20 opponents have been over 240lb.

I think seperating heavy weight and super heavy weight would certainly make things more interesting, as you'd see a lot more athleticism under the 240 mark and more jab and hold over it.

In principle I think it makes good sense, but the concern is if the heavyweight division is already thin on talent (a common a gripe), dividing into two further exacerbates that situation. Also, if we assume Super-Heavyweight would end up being the 'glamour' division (if only for legacy reasons of it being where the biggest men fight), then you'd probably get a repeat of the situation we already have with the Cruiserweight division, where fighters like David Haye end up going outside of their 'natural' weight class anyway just to chase the bigger money fights...

^^^^^^^this , exactly.......the "heavyweight" division has been in existence since around the time of the london prize ring rules (1830s) when boxers separated out into the "heavy" weights(fighters around 12 stones and heavier) and the "light" weights(around 10 stoners).....soon to be followed by the "middle" weights on or around 11 stones.

even back in the days of nat langham being the middle weight champion guys like tom sayers found that the big money was where the big men went. tom went up and fought the bigger guys because the heavy weight champion was the ultimate.

it's been that way ever since. through the passage of time up until modern times with so many other sports diluting the aura of it the heavyweight champion of the world was the pinnacle of all , the richest prize in sport.

you just can't fk with that!

[coolchris]

I don't agree with all that you have said here Tuscaneer.A peak Mike gives a Peak Lennox hell in my opinion yes Lennox had a fantastic jab but look at the life and death struggle Mercer gave him(cold have gone either way) and he had a come forward pressure fighting style in my opinion on a lower level to Mikes.And Bruno a pretty static robotic heavyweight was actually out jabbing Lennox and winning up to the point he got caught(and you would not even put big Frank in the top 50 heavyweights of all time).Tyson in his pomp was very awkward to hit he could slip shots extremely well and get into position to let not one or two but a flurry of shots go.Its not always about size look at Dempsey what 13 stone tops and he could knock out guys a lot bigger I think some heavyweights can be too big these days.

tuscaneer said:

tyson was a phenominal talent as that video above shows. however, there is an aura around him that clouds a lot of peoples judgement. that video was made around the time lennox went to spar tyson in the catskills and look what happened there...after a bull rush first round lennox gained his composure and beat the st out of mike for the next 3 rounds.

if they had fought at any point amateur or pro lennox would have had the day. never mind all the chat that mike was spent when they actually did fight....of course he was but there would never be a time where lennox didn't measure him and keep him at the end of that big jab.

i went to an after dinner speaking event some years ago and met mike and had a photo with him. the guy is roughly the same size as me. i stood side by side with anthony joshua at a secret signing event which members of this board were deliberately deprived of being privvy to.....and the top of my head came up to the guy's neck. he's fking huge. his back, his arms, his hands....fk me he's a leviathan....

now pick mike up and drop him in with these monsters of the "super" heavyweight era and i'm not saying he wouldn't do well......but he would get tagged on the way in MUCH harder and MUCH more frequently.



as to george foreman......i just love that guy, not the most skilled practitioner of all time but big enough to compete in any era and with one punch power like that in both hands you'd better believe he could equalize any contest at any point in the fight. if Ali would have taken the rematch i think we''d have seen a different fight. Ali himself even said those tactics would work once and once only.

in any mythical top 10s of heavyweights big george has got to be right up there with the best