World Athletic Championships.

[anonymous-user]

272BHP said:

You don't think there is much competitive running throughout the world? you need to get out more. Most of us get filtered out very early though. Lets face it if you can't run 11 secs as a 14yr old then you are wasting your time going into sprinting it really is as simple and as cruel as that.

Any kid who runs close to that at school sports day will get people knocking on his parents door soon enough.

272BHP said:

Athletics is much cleaner now than it was in the past. Cleaner in that they cannot take the mega doses Flo-Jo took without falling foul of the detectors. Without doubt her times should be struck from the record book.

These days its all about maximising hormonal profile - some of them don't even believe it is cheating. The doctors/coaches convince them that their hormone levels are less than optimal and that they are disadvantaged with regards to the competition.

There is a 3 monkeys approach to athletics these days but now that the genie is out of the bottle there is no way of putting the bugger back in. People bend the rules in every sport don't they though? I am struggling to think of a professional sport that is not beset by cheaters in some form or another. Anyone know any?

You speak with such certainty about how athletics and the doping that 'everyone does' works and yet offer no background or explanation or sources. Do you have anything to back up these views you spout?

Edit:
As an U15 Adam Gemili ran 12.5-guess he's wasting his time?
As an U17 CJ Ujah had only run 11.61
In 2004 the English schools 100m at U15 boys level was won in 11.14 (Richard Kilty was third in this race) but yeah-anyone not under 11 secs at that age is wasting their time

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 31st August 21:37

[272BHP]

Gemelli was either a really late bloomer or I would question that time. Sprinting is mostly genetics, you're either fast or you are not.

To quote Chariots of Fire 'You can't put in what God left out'

[272BHP]

Thankyou4calling said:

I'm putting forward an argument for saying that I don't think Flo Jo used Anabolics. She would've used drugs for sure, all do as I said but she, along with others was a freak. A genetic freak who worked hard and chose a sport she was suited to. It happens, not often but it does.

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Monday 31st August 21:28

What drugs do you think she was taking? certainly the facial changes that occurred are consistent with HGH use.

[anonymous-user]

272BHP said:

Gemelli was either a really late bloomer or I would question that time. Sprinting is mostly genetics, you're either fast or you are not.

To quote Chariots of Fire 'You can't put in what God left out'

The time is easily findable on the Uka database-power of ten. So where did 11 secs at 14 come from-and you are still dodging about any sources or experience for why you are saying all athletes are on drugs.

[Randy Winkman]

Thankyou4calling said:

Randy Winkman said:

In the thread about allowing drugs you seem to think that taking them is already commonplace in a number of sports ..... but you wont acknowledge that Flo-Jo took them?

In the drugs threads what I've said, in a nutshell, is that ALL sports people take drugs. And they do. I'm including alcohol, nicotine, aspirin, nurofen, night nurse, lucozade etc as drugs, they are and all take them. The IAAF have decided their athletes can't fail a test for certain drugs that they think give an unfair advantage but they allow loads of others that give an unfair advantage. That's a fact.

Anabolics as an example make a minute difference. The top people will be the top people with or without. That's a fact.

Drugs, any drugs, won't make an also ran a champ, they just don't although also rans often cite so called non drug use as an excuse for why they can't win.

I'm putting forward an argument for saying that I don't think Flo Jo used Anabolics. She would've used drugs for sure, all do as I said but she, along with others was a freak. A genetic freak who worked hard and chose a sport she was suited to. It happens, not often but it does.

More often a genetic freak doesn't work hard (they don't have the desire as they're good anyway) or chooses the wrong sport or vocation.

The single biggest factor for success in any sport is genetics. Nature. What God given talent you are born with via your parentage. No drug, training regime, diet, or motivation will ever overcome your our genetics. You cannot make a racehorse out of a carthorse.

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Monday 31st August 21:28

In the thread on athletes doping you say "The regime I'm advocating is, for the athletes, no different from now other than they wouldn't have to take the masking agents to avoid failing a test.". To me, that implies you think that that taking of illegal drugs is currently commonplace. Yet you think that Flo-Jo didn't take illegal drugs?

[272BHP]

cookie118 said:

The time is easily findable on the Uka database-power of ten. So where did 11 secs at 14 come from-and you are still dodging about any sources or experience for why you are saying all athletes are on drugs.

You really are a pedantic pudding aren't you? 11 secs was not an absolute figure and was plucked from memory not from any frantic googling. As it occurs I am pretty close with the 11 secs or so. Also, I understand that Gemeli concentrated on football not athletics originally?

As I have said before you are getting my opinion and nothing more. I have been fascinated and been an avid follower of Athletics for 40 years. Been around Gyms and Athletes for more than 35 years so I know what drugs are out there and what they can do. Never used myself though which is a choice I am very pleased about as even being an old man I am still in reasonable nick. Many friends who did use back in the day have not been so lucky.

[Thankyou4calling]

272BHP said:

What drugs do you think she was taking? certainly the facial changes that occurred are consistent with HGH use.

What drugs do I Think She was taking? Why would I even speculate on that. There's no point, none at all. You can only go by the facts and the facts are she never, ever failed an IAAF test for drugs. What they looked and tested for back then I don't know but whatever it was, they looked and didn't find so on that basis she was clean.

Was she taking drugs? Yes. Without a doubt. It's impossible to exist in Western society and not take drugs.

Did her face change? Jesus Christ that's just getting stupid, drugs tests don't cover facial characteristics. Some drug takers face changes shape some don't. Some who don't take HGH.s face changes, I've not taken it but my jaws pronounced.

And finally HGH isn't a drug. The IAAF test the levels and ban for excessive but it isn't a drug which really shows the stupidity of it all along with comments about face shapes and muscularity. Flo Jo was an African American woman super athlete who trained with incredible intensity 2 or 3 times a day for years. Of course she was muscular, it would be impossible not to be.

[Thankyou4calling]

Randy Winkman said:

What do you mean "hadn't done alot"? She was very well respected for her amazing ......... er, fingernails".

I think you'd have to have pretty high standards to say Flo Jo hadn't done a lot prior to 1987. Blimey, she won the 200m silver medal in the 1984 Olympics. She was by some margin the mist famous woman sprinter on earth well before 1987.

To say she hadn't done a lot really makes me wonder what you think you'd need to do to be considered as having done a lot!

It's like saying Michael Johnson was a decent 400m runner but hadn't done a lot.

[London424]

Thankyou4calling said:

Randy Winkman said:

What do you mean "hadn't done alot"? She was very well respected for her amazing ......... er, fingernails".

I think you'd have to have pretty high standards to say Flo Jo hadn't done a lot prior to 1987. Blimey, she won the 200m silver medal in the 1984 Olympics. She was by some margin the mist famous woman sprinter on earth well before 1987.

To say she hadn't done a lot really makes me wonder what you think you'd need to do to be considered as having done a lot!

It's like saying Michael Johnson was a decent 400m runner but hadn't done a lot.

She was mainly famous for her look, not her performance.

She won a silver in 84, then did nothing, even taking time out. Then 87/88 set ridiculous times, then retired in 89 when they introduced testing.

[anonymous-user]

272BHP said:

You really are a pedantic pudding aren't you? 11 secs was not an absolute figure and was plucked from memory not from any frantic googling. As it occurs I am pretty close with the 11 secs or so. Also, I understand that Gemeli concentrated on football not athletics originally?

As I have said before you are getting my opinion and nothing more. I have been fascinated and been an avid follower of Athletics for 40 years. Been around Gyms and Athletes for more than 35 years so I know what drugs are out there and what they can do. Never used myself though which is a choice I am very pleased about as even being an old man I am still in reasonable nick. Many friends who did use back in the day have not been so lucky.

I'm being pedantic because you're throwing your opinion around as fact-fair enough if it's your opinion but if you make such definite statements with no qualification then why be so surprised if I call it out?

My background is as part of an athletics club since I was 14 training with some national junior medalists/champions and several people who have gone on to make senior gb teams were in the same club and same competitions as I was there.

When I went to university the situation was the same-with some national senior medalists in the training group and also some genuine world class athletes using the same facilities and training at the same time.

I have never ever come across any evidence of drug taking in the sport from any of the people I've come into contact with and that's where I'm coming from.

[272BHP]

And long may it continue that we don't see drug use with the amateur game and the young athletes. That is very heartening to hear. Unfortunately as soon as money gets involved it tends to tarnish everything doesn't it?

[Thankyou4calling]

NI'm not looking to hijack the thread with a drugs in sport discussion but with the Rugby World Cup on our shores this month I took the opportunity to look at the RFU drug policy.

They test for Cocaine, Cannabis, MDMA and amphetamines. That is all!!

I wonder how many of those 19stone, 20 inch necked powerhouses that will be pressing the flesh of all the valuable sponsors representatives over the coming weeks would still be on the team if they used IOC testing. I'd wager it would be a very different picture indeed and if sponsors knew what was actually happening in terms of Anabolic use they would be horrified.

It's not brushed under the carpet, it's not even an issue, it's a non topic.

The RFU could give an Ostrich lessons about burying their head in the sand.

If asked about drugs they can point to their excellently worded and strictly enforced policy that looks for drugs a Rugby prayer wouldn't bother with but studiously ignores those they will be ingesting in pretty serious quantities.

Still, if you don't look you can't find and can't gave those sponsors dissapointed, they need a big guy to impress the investors, let's not ask any awkward questions please

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Tuesday 1st September 10:07

[London424]

Thankyou4calling said:

NI'm not looking to hijack the thread with a drugs in sport discussion but with the Rugby World Cup on our shores this month I took the opportunity to look at the RFU drug policy.

They test for Cocaine, Cannabis, MDMA and amphetamines. That is all!!

I wonder how many of those 19stone, 20 inch necked powerhouses that will be pressing the flesh of all the valuable sponsors representatives over the coming weeks would still be on the team if they used IOC testing. I'd wager it would be a very different picture indeed and if sponsors knew what was actually happening in terms of Anabolic use they would be horrified.

It's not brushed under the carpet, it's not even an issue, it's a non topic.

The RFU could give an Ostrich lessons about burying their head in the sand.

If asked about drugs they can point to their excellently worded and strictly enforced policy that looks for drugs a Rugby prayer wouldn't bother with but studiously ignores those they will be ingesting in pretty serious quantities.

Still, if you don't look you can't find and can't gave those sponsors dissapointed, they need a big guy to impress the investors, let's not ask any awkward questions please

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Tuesday 1st September 10:07

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2863758/Rugby-s-drug-problem-exposed-RFU-boss-admits-realise-s-issue-addressing-it.html

And as you say, the size, speed, power that you see developing at the youth team levels is quite scary.

I have no proof and it is only my opinion, but where there is money to be made, humans will push the boundaries of what they can get away with. In terms of percentages I wouldn't like to guess, but I would assume that all professional sports have drug taking to some degree or other.

[Thankyou4calling]

London424 said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/articl...

And as you say, the size, speed, power that you see developing at the youth team levels is quite scary.

I have no proof and it is only my opinion, but where there is money to be made, humans will push the boundaries of what they can get away with. In terms of percentages I wouldn't like to guess, but I would assume that all professional sports have drug taking to some degree or other.

The thing is that I would argue the RFU, by not even testing for Anabolics etc and by managing a sport that participants need to be hugely strong, able to train hard and recover quickly, they need to be fast and explosive, aggressive and massively muscled, they are actively encouraging their players to use steroids.

It's quite remarkable and apart from the odd newspaper article and a committee member vowing they are addressing issues nothing's said or done.

One of the things I struggle with is why athletics is so obsessed with drug testing when so many other sports aren't. It just makes it seem they are the only sport with a "Problem" when the reality is that I'd say the majority of major sports aren't bothered or at least present a public face of ignorance.

Can you imagine if the IOC turned up after an England v All Blacks game and got the test tubes out. You'd see some serious sprint times then as the players made for the exit like some kind of cross between Usain Bolt and King Kong!! It's laughable.

But the men in suits and club ties keep the high level sponsors of integrity happy with hollow promises and ignorance.

If athletes can increase their speed, strength, recovery and muscularity by using Anabolics then I'd be amazed if Rugby players, footballers, boxers, jockeys, tennis players and so on hadn't cottoned on and the beauty is there governing bodies aren't fussed.

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Tuesday 1st September 12:09

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Tuesday 1st September 12:12

[DJRC]

lerate said:

DJRC said:

Whilst I'm fairly cynical on Flo Jo being clean, I must admit to being much more inclined to regard CO as clean on the fairly simplistic grounds that she isn't fast enough. She wins the big ones on her presence/reputation of being a finishing straight beast. Felix finally applied a mental toughness against her that other hadn't and then turned on the speed - and blew her away. Burned her.

If CO is on the juice then it's a very English Yeoman application!

CO has served a ban for drugs offences you do realise that? 3 missed tests that an award winning journalist proved she could of got to easily. No one said she's on the juice now, but the BBC never mention it

Oh knock it off, she missed 3 tests as a young athlete.
If you think that influences ability/speed later in a career then you are a numpty. I don't really give a monkeys about a journo proving anything, young kids are invariably st at timekeeping and admin type stuff. I was. I am. Even when v v important things are riding on it. Hell I still file tax returns late knowing I'll incur fines because the process annoys me. The whereabouts system would annoy the living tits off me and I'd deliberately miss a cpl just because.

And in the lead up to 2012 the CO missing 3 tests/bam story was repeated every time her name was mentioned by the BBC or anyone else. Your whining is 3 yrs out of date.

[SpudLink]

Thankyou4calling said:

I'm not looking to hijack the thread with a drugs in sport discussion ...

I think that horse has bolted.

I've long felt that athletics is unfairly demonised. They knew they had a problem which they tried to address with testing. This lead to the disqualification of Ben Johnson after winning the main event on the biggest stage possible. That lead to a public perception that it is a tainted sport. They then try harder to catch the dopers, and the more success they achieve, the greater the perception that "they're all at it". Meanwhile other sports, where the stars generally make more money, don't even acknowledge they have a problem.

As for Flo-Jo; I have no evidence, but I'll repeat what I said in 1988. "That physique was built by steroids and growth hormone. She might just as well have been on a motorbike."no, I can't defend it, but I stil think it.

[SpudLink]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Unfair that it's singled out as being so much worse than any other professional sport. As others have said, if the governing body of other sports where speed, strength or endurance are the main factors of success take a close look at themselves, they might well find they are as tainted as athletics or cycling.
I certainly don't suggest athletics is clean, but the more success it has exposing cheats, the more it's reputation suffers.

Edited by SpudLink on Tuesday 1st September 13:52

[lerate]

DJRC said:

Oh knock it off, she missed 3 tests as a young athlete.
If you think that influences ability/speed later in a career then you are a numpty. I don't really give a monkeys about a journo proving anything, young kids are invariably st at timekeeping and admin type stuff. I was. I am. Even when v v important things are riding on it. Hell I still file tax returns late knowing I'll incur fines because the process annoys me. The whereabouts system would annoy the living tits off me and I'd deliberately miss a cpl just because.

And in the lead up to 2012 the CO missing 3 tests/bam story was repeated every time her name was mentioned by the BBC or anyone else. Your whining is 3 yrs out of date.

I'm not whining old chap you mentioned her not me. She missed two tests in the same month you'd of thought she would of sharpened up a bit even if she is a bit slow like yourself. And when did I say missing tests affected her speed? Don't put words in my mouth you're making yourself look silly. Tax returns are a fact of life as is whereabouts testing for athletes. At best missing tests is dumb at worst you're hiding something either way it's a drugs offence. As for filing tax returns late deliberately incurring a fine - that's really telling the Inland Revenue isn't it well done you I bet they just hate you fighting the system ha ha

You're very aggressive by the way, I've got to ask are you on steroids?

Edited by lerate on Tuesday 1st September 17:15

Edited by lerate on Tuesday 1st September 17:16

[Randy Winkman]

Thankyou4calling said:

The thing is that I would argue the RFU, by not even testing for Anabolics etc and by managing a sport that participants need to be hugely strong, able to train hard and recover quickly, they need to be fast and explosive, aggressive and massively muscled, they are actively encouraging their players to use steroids.

It's quite remarkable and apart from the odd newspaper article and a committee member vowing they are addressing issues nothing's said or done.

One of the things I struggle with is why athletics is so obsessed with drug testing when so many other sports aren't. It just makes it seem they are the only sport with a "Problem" when the reality is that I'd say the majority of major sports aren't bothered or at least present a public face of ignorance.

Can you imagine if the IOC turned up after an England v All Blacks game and got the test tubes out. You'd see some serious sprint times then as the players made for the exit like some kind of cross between Usain Bolt and King Kong!! It's laughable.

But the men in suits and club ties keep the high level sponsors of integrity happy with hollow promises and ignorance.

If athletes can increase their speed, strength, recovery and muscularity by using Anabolics then I'd be amazed if Rugby players, footballers, boxers, jockeys, tennis players and so on hadn't cottoned on and the beauty is there governing bodies aren't fussed.

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Tuesday 1st September 12:09

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Tuesday 1st September 12:12

But, unless I've misunderstood, you don't think Flo-Jo took illegal, performance enhancing drugs?

[Mark13]

I thought the championship was entertaining and we did well overall with 7 medals and a lot of other good performances.

Negatives were the BBC and it's pitiful coverage with hours of analysis of predominantly running and a huge lack of field event coverage.

I am involved at grass roots level and all the debate here about PEDS just has no relevance there. We have a great sport giving fitness, focus, commitment and competitive opportunities to young people. The variety of events gives wider opportunity and all are equal and not reliant on high incomes as in a lot of other sports.