England Rugby - what is needed for a successful future....

[Challo]

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

I agree on the pitch he is right kind of person to have as skipper. Issue is he keeps getting banned by the RFU for various citings. What good is an England skipper that keeps getting banned??

[0000]

Over a year's worth of bans is quite a bit.

[hornetrider]

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

Yes, great Captain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EV-aM3j0kg

[London424]

Challo said:

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

I agree on the pitch he is right kind of person to have as skipper. Issue is he keeps getting banned by the RFU for various citings. What good is an England skipper that keeps getting banned??

I'm sure we can find plenty examples of hot head players who calm down as they get older or added responsibility.

I don't think he's missed many England games while banned and I don't think he's done anything while playing for England.

Of all the options available I think he's a good choice for the next 6N. After that who knows if someone else puts their hand up for it/ deserves it

[Kermit power]

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

I think it's primarily the fact that he's only been playing senior rugby for 10 years, yet he's been banned for over a year in total.

[hornetrider]

London424 said:

I don't think he's missed many England games while banned

He missed the entire World Cup because he was banned for nutting someone!

[Blackpuddin]

Total liability.

[London424]

Kermit power said:

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

I think it's primarily the fact that he's only been playing senior rugby for 10 years, yet he's been banned for over a year in total.

Again, is that a big deal? He's not going to be officially announced as captain until it gets close to 6N time anyway. If he ballses up then he's gone, we're no worse off.

[hornetrider]

Here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34670192

Lancaster said:

I have spoken to Dylan. He knows he has let himself and everyone down.

It also goes without saying that we need all our players to be able to control their discipline and make good decisions under pressure. The World Cup will clearly require this, and Dylan has not clearly displayed this in this latest incident.

This is an area that he still needs to address. Unfortunately the consequences aren't just for him but also for the team because he was an important cog in the wheel.

Dylan is excellent in an awful lot of ways but clearly emotional control and ability to make good decisions under pressure is a key quality in all players. And the white-hot pressure of a World Cup will be that.

Still. I'm sure the opposition hookers are itching to wind him up a bit.

[hornetrider]

London424 said:

I don't think he's missed many England games while banned and I don't think he's done anything while playing for England.

Just to expand on this, the Telegraph have a timely helpful piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/intern...

1. April 2007. Banned for 26 weeks for gouging at club level. Missed the World Cup as a result.

2. March 2012. Banned for 8 weeks for biting whilst playing for England.

3. December 2012. Banned for just 2 weeks for punching in the Heineken cup. Must have brought good biscuits due to recent previous.

4. May 2013. Banned for 11 weeks for verbal abuse of Wayne Barnes. Cost his team the Premiership and missed the Lions tour as a result.

5. Dec 2014. Banned for 3 weeks for elbowing to the face. Brought the luxury bourbons for that one - only 3 weeks!!

6. May 2015. Banned for 4 weeks for headbutting. Missed the World Cup as a result.



So, he's missed three major competitions as a result of his indiscipline. Terrible, terrible choice for captain of England.

[London424]

hornetrider said:

London424 said:

I don't think he's missed many England games while banned

He missed the entire World Cup because he was banned for nutting someone!

Well technically he only would have missed the first game. SL decided not to pick him at all.

He also didn't make his England debut until late 2008 so not sure how he missed the 2007 world cup due to being banned.

Edited by London424 on Thursday 17th December 16:21

[London424]

hornetrider said:

Here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34670192

Lancaster said:

I have spoken to Dylan. He knows he has let himself and everyone down.

It also goes without saying that we need all our players to be able to control their discipline and make good decisions under pressure. The World Cup will clearly require this, and Dylan has not clearly displayed this in this latest incident.

This is an area that he still needs to address. Unfortunately the consequences aren't just for him but also for the team because he was an important cog in the wheel.

Dylan is excellent in an awful lot of ways but clearly emotional control and ability to make good decisions under pressure is a key quality in all players. And the white-hot pressure of a World Cup will be that.

Still. I'm sure the opposition hookers are itching to wind him up a bit.

What's his record like with England?

[oldnbold]

hornetrider said:

Just to expand on this, the Telegraph have a timely helpful piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/intern...

1. April 2007. Banned for 26 weeks for gouging at club level. Missed the World Cup as a result.

2. March 2012. Banned for 8 weeks for biting whilst playing for England.

3. December 2012. Banned for just 2 weeks for punching in the Heineken cup. Must have brought good biscuits due to recent previous.

4. May 2013. Banned for 11 weeks for verbal abuse of Wayne Barnes. Cost his team the Premiership and missed the Lions tour as a result.

5. Dec 2014. Banned for 3 weeks for elbowing to the face. Brought the luxury bourbons for that one - only 3 weeks!!

6. May 2015. Banned for 4 weeks for headbutting. Missed the World Cup as a result.



So, he's missed three major competitions as a result of his indiscipline. Terrible, terrible choice for captain of England.

This is exactly why he shouldn't even be in the squad let alone as captain. He makes the same mistakes over and over and over again. Total liability.

[hornetrider]

London424 said:

He also didn't make his England debut until late 2008 so not sure how he missed the 2007 world cup due to being banned.

Well, quite simple really.

ESPN said:

His conversion to hooker came in 2005 with a move to Northampton, and call-ups to England Saxons (2007) and the full England side (2008) followed.

His England debut might have come earlier had he not been ruled out of the 2007 World Cup because of a 26-week ban for gouging future England team-mate James Haskell and Irish international Jonny O'Connor during a Premiership game. On top of the punishment came widespread opprobrium from the wider rugby community.

[London424]

hornetrider said:

London424 said:

He also didn't make his England debut until late 2008 so not sure how he missed the 2007 world cup due to being banned.

Well, quite simple really.

ESPN said:

His conversion to hooker came in 2005 with a move to Northampton, and call-ups to England Saxons (2007) and the full England side (2008) followed.

His England debut might have come earlier had he not been ruled out of the 2007 World Cup because of a 26-week ban for gouging future England team-mate James Haskell and Irish international Jonny O'Connor during a Premiership game. On top of the punishment came widespread opprobrium from the wider rugby community.

And if my aunt...

[irocfan]

hornetrider said:

Just to expand on this, the Telegraph have a timely helpful piece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/intern...

2. March 2012. Banned for 8 weeks for biting whilst playing for England.

IIRC that ban seemed a little harsh as the fingers bitten were actually being placed in his mouth....

[Matt172]

London424 said:

What's his record like with England?

two yellows in 66 caps I think....pretty good record IMHO

[Nobby Diesel]

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

I have to disagree with you, with regard to not seeing an issue.
His disciplinary record is well documented.
My thought is this. The RFU are very busy, trying to instill the Core Values of the game, at grass roots level and upwards.
These are Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship.
I found it quite hard to explain to some Under 12 rugby players today, how the RFU could appoint a playeri with his record, as captain and equate that to the Ćore Values.

[London424]

Nobby Diesel said:

London424 said:

I'm not really seeing the issue with Hartley as captain. Was one of the most solid and consistent players in the team, and is currently the best 2 that is English.

Captains his current club.

Plenty of experience.

So he's a bit of a knob. Is that really a big deal? I'd rather have a few horrible bds in the team than a load of nice guys.

I have to disagree with you, with regard to not seeing an issue.
His disciplinary record is well documented.
My thought is this. The RFU are very busy, trying to instill the Core Values of the game, at grass roots level and upwards.
These are Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship.
I found it quite hard to explain to some Under 12 rugby players today, how the RFU could appoint a playeri with his record, as captain and equate that to the Core Values.

This the same RFU that have run roughshod over Bristol by announcing a coach before agreeing anything with them? Doesn't sound very respectful.

Where do you draw the line with discipline? Anyone who has been suspended can't play again? Just repeat offenders?

Surely your job as coach is instill the correct values in your players. They'll learn soon enough how most of those values are bks when you become a professional.

[hornetrider]

I don't know where the line is either, however I'm pretty sure he's a million miles the wrong side of it because I think it's fair to say he's the biggest with the longest ban length in the English game.