England Rugby - what is needed for a successful future....

[Inverness]

2014–15 Aviva Premiership Table

Club Points Players in England WC Squad

1 Northampton Saints (SF) 76 3
2 Bath (RU) 75 6
3 Leicester Tigers (SF) 68 3
4 Saracens (CH) 68 8
5 Exeter Chiefs 68 3
6 Wasps 61 2
7 Sale Sharks 54 0
8 Harlequins 49 4 (5, see note below)
9 Gloucester 48 2
10 London Irish 40 0
11 Newcastle Falcons 34 0
12 London Welsh (R) 1 0
Note Billy Vunipola is replaced by Nick Easter due to injury after Wales game.

England to face Wales on Saturday 26 September, kick-off 20:00

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 40 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 24 caps)
12. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 17 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 32 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 34 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 25 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
4. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 41 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 40 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 20 caps)

Replacements
16. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 24 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 13 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 25 caps)
20. James Haskell (Wasps, 60 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 24 caps)
22. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
23. Alex Goode (Saracens, 18 caps)

3 Quins, 3 Saries, 3 Tigers, 2 Bath, 2 Saints, 1 Cherry & White, 1 Exeter

England (v Uruguay, City of Manchester Stadium, 20:00, BST, Saturday, October 10, 2015)

15 Alex Goode (Saracens, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 34 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
9 Danny Care (Harlequins, 52 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 26 caps)
2 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 27 caps)
5 Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 28 caps)
6 James Haskell (Wasps, 61 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins, 42 caps)
8 Nick Easter (Harlequins, 53 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 2 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 36 caps)
18 David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps )
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 9 caps)
20 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 41 caps)
21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 26 caps)
22 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 42 caps)

3 Quins, 3 Saries, 3 Chiefs, 2 Bath, 2 Wasps, 2 Tigers

The above lists make interesting reading, Saries who are the 2014/15 Champions have 8 players in the squad, seems fair to me. Bath are next with 6 (who are runners up), but then Quins who finish 8th have 4 players (and always have 3 players in the starting line-up). While Saints who finish the league top only have 3 players in the squad and only 2 of them start against Wales and none start against Uruguay!
If you are going to have your squad mainly from one team then I think 5 of them should be in the starting line-up, or perhaps have combinations from the same premiership team. Ie all front row or all back row, or No 8, Scrum Half and Fly Half.
The only 2 consistent players Lancaster has picked in my mind are Robshaw and Brown. But with even Brown it has not always been at his club position Full Back.
Tigers (finish 3rd) who normally have (in my opinion) provided the most England players in the past only have 3 in the 31 man squad.
We also all know how Lancaster loves a good stat, then why the hell did he leave out the 2014-15 Premiership top try scorer, (who has 4caps to his name).

[dom9]

That's a good question... I don't know much about Waldrom to be honest!

Ashton also had a good season on the wing...

[rubyfletch]

We didn't pick our best players so never stood a chance.
Andy Goode would have singlehandedly seen us through. Well known fact he's better than Dan Carter.

[Kermit power]

Inverness said:

Lots of stuff!

I fear the one thing you overlooked in forming your opinion - which is not to say that lots of it isn't valid - is the number of players actually eligible to be picked for England in each of those clubs' starting lineups.

To decide whether Northampton Saints are under-represented, let's take a look at the starting XV in the AP Semi last year...

15 Ahsee Tuala - Capped by Samoa
14 Ken Pisi - Capped by Samoa
13 George Pisi - Capped by Samoa
12 Luther Burrell - Sam Burgess has pictures of Stuart Lancaster spit-roasting a pig with David Cameron???
11 Jamie Elliott - Don't know much about him. England U20 in his day, but is he international standard?
10 Stephen Myler - 31 now, so probably on the "too old" pile, especially considering competition at 10.
9 Lee Dickson - Never struck me as better than Youngs, Care or Cipriani.

1 Alex Corbisiero - Currently injured?
2 Dylan Hartley - Silly boy got himself banned for at least the first couple of games.
3 Salesi Ma'afu - Capped by Australia
4 Courtney Lawes - Played in RWC before injury
5 Christian Day - Don't know much about him, but uncapped at 32.
6 Tom Wood - Played in RWC
7 Calum Clark - Only been capped once after his big ban.
8 Samu Manoa - Capped by USA

So, of the starting XV.....

10 are eligible to play for England, of whom....

2 were either injured or banned at the start of the tournament.
2 have played in the tournament.
2 have never been capped.

So that only leaves....

The only one I can see who really has a right to be monumentally pissed off is Luther Burrell.

[arguti]

DJRC said:

It's been noted yes. Cheika didn't do it quietly though - it was blatent and forced through!

Sorry I was being sarcastic.....that was quiet for an Aussie!

[Inverness]

Kermit power said:

The only one I can see who really has a right to be monumentally pissed off is Luther Burrell.

Like all good stats you can make them tell (spin) what ever you want from them.

I would also say Corbs should be pissed as well, he was in the 50 plus man squad and even played a warm up game. IMO he was the differance in the last game of the Lions Tours, so should of been a shoe in for the England squad. The other Saints player who was a shoe in before his injury was Ben Fodden, 10 times better than Alex Goode.

[irocfan]

Kermit power said:

The only one I can see who really has a right to be monumentally pissed off is Luther Burrell.

you're not kidding - I'm not his biggest fan (he hasn't really kicked on as much as I'd have hoped and still "goes missing" during matches) but compared to the shower of st we've just been watching....

[Madness60]

irocfan said:

you're not kidding - I'm not his biggest fan (he hasn't really kicked on as much as I'd have hoped and still "goes missing" during matches) but compared to the shower of st we've just been watching....

Burrell, like Hartley and Cips, have all gone up in our estimation simply by not being involved! Burrell, was poor in the 6Ns but was unlucky to loose out to the aura that is Burgess. However even if he was in the squad he could have suffered the Slade/Nowell gambit where you are the obvious choice replacement and do not get picked over someone else shoe-horned in out of position.

JJ get injured, replace with Slade or out of form out of position Barrett??

Need a back to cover on the bench, Nowell who can cover 11 & 14, 15 and 13 at a push or Burgess who can only play 6 well but is playing 12 for England??

[Kermit power]

Inverness said:

Like all good stats you can make them tell (spin) what ever you want from them.

I would also say Corbs should be pissed as well, he was in the 50 plus man squad and even played a warm up game. IMO he was the differance in the last game of the Lions Tours, so should of been a shoe in for the England squad. The other Saints player who was a shoe in before his injury was Ben Fodden, 10 times better than Alex Goode.

Isn't Corbs injured though? If he's not, then fair enough.

[Challo]

Can anyone advise how Burgess has been playing for Bath at 6? Seems crazy that he has had one season at Bath after moving from league, and suddenly England decide that he has enough ability to play at the world stage for England, and he is that good he can play in a completely different position.

[irocfan]

Challo said:

Can anyone advise how Burgess has been playing for Bath at 6? Seems crazy that he has had one season at Bath after moving from league, and suddenly England decide that he has enough ability to play at the world stage for England, and he is that good he can play in a completely different position.

ahhhh - but if you knew how that worked you too could be an England coach!!

[Joey Ramone]

Challo said:

Can anyone advise how Burgess has been playing for Bath at 6? Seems crazy that he has had one season at Bath after moving from league, and suddenly England decide that he has enough ability to play at the world stage for England, and he is that good he can play in a completely different position.

It was bonkers, mate. Completely and utterly unfathomable. Don't get me wrong, I think that Burgess is a remarkable athlete and could be a great 6 in time, but to play him at 12, in two crunch world cup games, a few months after taking up the sport was just madness And when England were facing Australia with Ford, Farrell and Burgess playing 10-13 with Joseph out on the wing I realised that the lunatics had taken over the asylum.

[DocJock]

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that Burgess didn't do all that poorly.

He was better than Barritt. Made his tackles and when carrying consistently got behind the tackler. Problem was Robshaw is not fast enough in support to take the offload.

Better than Farrell at 12, managed to stay on the field.

He's no finished article but he didn't play any worse than the alternatives.

[irocfan]

DocJock said:

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that Burgess didn't do all that poorly.

He was better than Barritt. Made his tackles and when carrying consistently got behind the tackler. Problem was Robshaw is not fast enough in support to take the offload.

Better than Farrell at 12, managed to stay on the field.

He's no finished article but he didn't play any worse than the alternatives.

I agree with the above - however being better than 2/3 of the players representing England isn't exactly setting the bar high! Hopefully he'll go back to Ford Snr @ Bath and learn how to become a cracking 6 and then (hopefully!) we'll see the real "slammin' Sam"

[DocJock]

100% agree.

Mike Ford sees him train and play, day in, day out. He doesn't think he is good enough to displace Eastmond at 12 and is better suited to loose forward.

The fact that Lancaster obviously thinks he knows better is an indictment of his judgement imo.

[London424]

DocJock said:

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that Burgess didn't do all that poorly.

He was better than Barritt. Made his tackles and when carrying consistently got behind the tackler. Problem was Robshaw is not fast enough in support to take the offload.

Better than Farrell at 12, managed to stay on the field.

He's no finished article but he didn't play any worse than the alternatives.

I'll just caveat my below point with 'I've never played rugby' so could be talking complete rubbish. But drawing on my football experience I was wondering the below.

Although Burgess didn't do all that poorly when you watch is there an element that he didn't do what others expect?

Putting my football head on if a player gets played out of position then as an individual they can look like they aren't making mistakes and appear to have a fairly solid game, but what happens is other players are having to change what they would normally do to accomodate that player and it throws the overall team performance off.

Does that make sense?

Was he making the runs you'd expect? In defense was he too fast/slow? In slightly the wrong place on the pitch? Clearing out when he should/shouldn't be? etc etc.

[Joey Ramone]

London424 said:

I'll just caveat my below point with 'I've never played rugby' so could be talking complete rubbish. But drawing on my football experience I was wondering the below.

Although Burgess didn't do all that poorly when you watch is there an element that he didn't do what others expect?

Putting my football head on if a player gets played out of position then as an individual they can look like they aren't making mistakes and appear to have a fairly solid game, but what happens is other players are having to change what they would normally do to accomodate that player and it throws the overall team performance off.

Does that make sense?

Was he making the runs you'd expect? In defense was he too fast/slow? In slightly the wrong place on the pitch? Clearing out when he should/shouldn't be? etc etc.

Interesting question. I suspect that he did 85% of the basic stuff as well as could be expected and to no detriment to the team whatsoever, but there is no doubt that he and Barritt, for example, weren't singing off the same hymn-sheet defensively, and that Barritt was further disadvantaged by playing out of position to accommodate Burgess at 12. Hence the effect was cumulative. The other missing 15 % is that intuitive understanding of centre-play that either turns opportunities into tries or shuts down opposition midfield moves in their tracks and which Burgess simply couldn't be expected to grasp in such a short time. Not his fault, takes years to learn.

The other problem is that although he's a strong runner with a good offloading game (although nowhere near as good as SBW's) and occupies defenders' attention, Burgess has no kicking game whatsoever, and his passing is substandard for a centre. It places significant restrictions on how you then have to play the game as a team.

[DJRC]

If you want to bring SBW into the question then it becomes an unequivocal Yes to Sam. You aren't going to find anybody in that world who won't argue Sam over SBW. He just needs more than half a season playing each position!

[vetrof]

DJRC said:

If you want to bring SBW into the question then it becomes an unequivocal Yes to Sam. You aren't going to find anybody in that world who won't argue Sam over SBW. He just needs more than half a season playing each position!

Debatable about the Burgess v SBW argument. After his stellar introduction to the NRL he was plagued by injuries until his defection to France at the age of 23.
Furthermore SBW has proved to be world class in both codes, personally I'd be tempted to start him with C Smith as the tournament proceeds.
Saying that, I do think Burgess will be a success given time. People have to remember SBW had 3 years under the tutilage of Tana Umaga bufore he got anywhere near the AB squad.

Also, I do agree with you regarding the AB forward pack, their job is to secure enough quality ball to enable the backs (and whichever forwards happen to be out there) to rack up the points, and to disrupt the opposition to prevent them reciprocating. The stats for AB games are often confusing when taken in isolation. It's very common for them to win with less than 50% possesion.

Edited by vetrof on Friday 9th October 18:54

[DocJock]

I think Sam Burgess is a fantastic rugby player but it was unfair to hype him up so much with so little experience (exacerbated by Mike Ford playing him in two completely disparate positions in that short time).

I don't know if it was tactical decision to use him as a crash-ball/decoy, but he seems to look for contact too often. Yes, he has great ability to get behind the man in the tackle before offloading, but once in a while he should attack the space instead to make defending against him less predictable.

Give him another season and he will be a real force imo.