The Running Thread Vol 2

[AndStilliRise]

Tough headwind at today's marathon. I wanted a 3:30 but given the conditions I managed a 3:43. Spent the first half pacing a guy to Sub4 and wasn't too interested in having a tough afternoon. Tried to run a strong second half which was impossible, did not get one mile under 8 and in the end settled for 3rd place. Was just a training run for me.

[markh1973]

egor110 said:

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

What sort of timescale am i looking at for recovering from a suspected medial ligament?

I'm supposed to be doing the grizzly on the 12th march but i guess that's looking doubtful.

I can walk on my knee but it's all a bit stiff and week so wouldn't even attempt a run at the moment.

What's most annoying is i've been slowly building up to 18 miles off road and doing 12 miles the last few thursdays so haven't been under trained yet as last week was a scheduled low mileage week i did a half marathon that involved running down some massive hills , doing those hills on concrete just totally knocked the crap out of my knees .

Do i forget about the grizzly in march and focus on another off roader in april or aim for some events in october?

Depends on the tear - when I did mine it was a grade 2 tear and it was 5 or 6 weeks before I could run again (and that was only for a mile). Physio expected it to take longer.

Think it was longer again before I could run trails because of the twisting. From doing it in mice Feb it was mid July before I covered a marathon distance.

So based on my experience March and April are out and you need to be looking at June or later.

Balls, kind of what i was expecting though.

I'm back at work today ( postie) and fairly comfy walking around but i'm not taking my normal big strides and having to be careful going down hills.

I guess there's the chance it's not a tear and it's just strained ?

Physio tomorrow so will see what i'm like after she's done her handy work.

What did the physio say?

[egor110]

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

What sort of timescale am i looking at for recovering from a suspected medial ligament?

I'm supposed to be doing the grizzly on the 12th march but i guess that's looking doubtful.

I can walk on my knee but it's all a bit stiff and week so wouldn't even attempt a run at the moment.

What's most annoying is i've been slowly building up to 18 miles off road and doing 12 miles the last few thursdays so haven't been under trained yet as last week was a scheduled low mileage week i did a half marathon that involved running down some massive hills , doing those hills on concrete just totally knocked the crap out of my knees .

Do i forget about the grizzly in march and focus on another off roader in april or aim for some events in october?

Depends on the tear - when I did mine it was a grade 2 tear and it was 5 or 6 weeks before I could run again (and that was only for a mile). Physio expected it to take longer.

Think it was longer again before I could run trails because of the twisting. From doing it in mice Feb it was mid July before I covered a marathon distance.

So based on my experience March and April are out and you need to be looking at June or later.

Balls, kind of what i was expecting though.

I'm back at work today ( postie) and fairly comfy walking around but i'm not taking my normal big strides and having to be careful going down hills.

I guess there's the chance it's not a tear and it's just strained ?

Physio tomorrow so will see what i'm like after she's done her handy work.

What did the physio say?

She says the outside bit of my right quad was mega tight and this in turn was pulling on my knee.

Gave me a sports massage , stuck on some k tape told me to do hot and cold treatment, stretch, roll and balance for 30 seconds on each leg for 30 seconds , 3 times.

Seemed to think i'd be ok for the grizzly but not to do any running before the race.

[Smitters]

Just back from a week in the Canaries. Had an good week of running, covered 58km over the week, mainly fairly easy running on the dusty roads away from the resort and the paths around the north coast, and chucking in some good end of run efforts. Although my calves are tight from the increased pace and mileage, I can feel the benefits a bit of faster running is having, as my easy post-flight plod on Sunday was 20 secs/km quicker than normal. Time for a bit of rest after the mileage and some shorter sharper sessions before going back to the big push on distance and hills, ready for a May trail marathon.

[markh1973]

egor110 said:

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

What sort of timescale am i looking at for recovering from a suspected medial ligament?

I'm supposed to be doing the grizzly on the 12th march but i guess that's looking doubtful.

I can walk on my knee but it's all a bit stiff and week so wouldn't even attempt a run at the moment.

What's most annoying is i've been slowly building up to 18 miles off road and doing 12 miles the last few thursdays so haven't been under trained yet as last week was a scheduled low mileage week i did a half marathon that involved running down some massive hills , doing those hills on concrete just totally knocked the crap out of my knees .

Do i forget about the grizzly in march and focus on another off roader in april or aim for some events in october?

Depends on the tear - when I did mine it was a grade 2 tear and it was 5 or 6 weeks before I could run again (and that was only for a mile). Physio expected it to take longer.

Think it was longer again before I could run trails because of the twisting. From doing it in mice Feb it was mid July before I covered a marathon distance.

So based on my experience March and April are out and you need to be looking at June or later.

Balls, kind of what i was expecting though.

I'm back at work today ( postie) and fairly comfy walking around but i'm not taking my normal big strides and having to be careful going down hills.

I guess there's the chance it's not a tear and it's just strained ?

Physio tomorrow so will see what i'm like after she's done her handy work.

What did the physio say?

She says the outside bit of my right quad was mega tight and this in turn was pulling on my knee.

Gave me a sports massage , stuck on some k tape told me to do hot and cold treatment, stretch, roll and balance for 30 seconds on each leg for 30 seconds , 3 times.

Seemed to think i'd be ok for the grizzly but not to do any running before the race.

That's good news - it's frustrating when injurp prevents race participation.

I have managed to return from skiing in one piece so all race plans are go.

[egor110]

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

markh1973 said:

egor110 said:

What sort of timescale am i looking at for recovering from a suspected medial ligament?

I'm supposed to be doing the grizzly on the 12th march but i guess that's looking doubtful.

I can walk on my knee but it's all a bit stiff and week so wouldn't even attempt a run at the moment.

What's most annoying is i've been slowly building up to 18 miles off road and doing 12 miles the last few thursdays so haven't been under trained yet as last week was a scheduled low mileage week i did a half marathon that involved running down some massive hills , doing those hills on concrete just totally knocked the crap out of my knees .

Do i forget about the grizzly in march and focus on another off roader in april or aim for some events in october?

Depends on the tear - when I did mine it was a grade 2 tear and it was 5 or 6 weeks before I could run again (and that was only for a mile). Physio expected it to take longer.

Think it was longer again before I could run trails because of the twisting. From doing it in mice Feb it was mid July before I covered a marathon distance.

So based on my experience March and April are out and you need to be looking at June or later.

Balls, kind of what i was expecting though.

I'm back at work today ( postie) and fairly comfy walking around but i'm not taking my normal big strides and having to be careful going down hills.

I guess there's the chance it's not a tear and it's just strained ?

Physio tomorrow so will see what i'm like after she's done her handy work.

What did the physio say?

She says the outside bit of my right quad was mega tight and this in turn was pulling on my knee.

Gave me a sports massage , stuck on some k tape told me to do hot and cold treatment, stretch, roll and balance for 30 seconds on each leg for 30 seconds , 3 times.

Seemed to think i'd be ok for the grizzly but not to do any running before the race.

That's good news - it's frustrating when injurp prevents race participation.

I have managed to return from skiing in one piece so all race plans are go.

I think i'm still going to do the grizzly

I trained up to 18 miles so only 2 short of race distance and have a month to recover although think i'll go to the gym on the cross trainer or take the bike out.

Luckily there are various people from my running club doing it and there slower than me so might use them as pacers so i don't race it.

Once back to running i need to work on my style , i take massive bounding strides and heel strike i need to take loads more little steps and run to music of 160-170 bpm to get my leg cadence up .

[The jiffle king]

Smitters said:

Just back from a week in the Canaries. Had an good week of running, covered 58km over the week, mainly fairly easy running on the dusty roads away from the resort and the paths around the north coast, and chucking in some good end of run efforts. Although my calves are tight from the increased pace and mileage, I can feel the benefits a bit of faster running is having, as my easy post-flight plod on Sunday was 20 secs/km quicker than normal. Time for a bit of rest after the mileage and some shorter sharper sessions before going back to the big push on distance and hills, ready for a May trail marathon.

I find after doing a couple of speed or tempo sessions that my "general" running pace seems to get faster. An old coach told me that it's better to get faster and then put the endurance on top than the other way around. Not sure how true this is overall, but seems to work for a few people I know

[Smitters]

The jiffle king said:

I find after doing a couple of speed or tempo sessions that my "general" running pace seems to get faster. An old coach told me that it's better to get faster and then put the endurance on top than the other way around. Not sure how true this is overall, but seems to work for a few people I know

Makes sense I guess - more significant pace gains are available at lower distances, especially in the early stages of training, then you take that speed and stretch it out. I'm sure it adds economiy too, which is my great loss I think. Unfortunately I am made of a particularly weak brand of porcelain, so I have to do a lot of slowly slowly and then creep up on faster running. I haven't had six months injury free in ten years, until now, where I've followed MAF for four months and then slowly added some speed. Even now though, I feel tightness and aches coming back off a few faster runs on harder surfaces. It's one reason I focus on ultra - no real need for me to ever run quicker than an eight minute mile. That said, I'm enjoying using my local parkrun to have a blast on grass and try to improve my form at speed, which should knock on to the lower paces.

[The jiffle king]

I think Parkrun is perfect for all runners; those just starting and those who have run for a long time but not really been able to do speedwork. It provides an opportunity every week to give running a bit faster some focus...... Sadly no park run close to me in the US right now, but maybe moving back to the UK in the summer so looking forward to regular time trials

[egor110]

Smitters said:

Makes sense I guess - more significant pace gains are available at lower distances, especially in the early stages of training, then you take that speed and stretch it out. I'm sure it adds economiy too, which is my great loss I think. Unfortunately I am made of a particularly weak brand of porcelain, so I have to do a lot of slowly slowly and then creep up on faster running. I haven't had six months injury free in ten years, until now, where I've followed MAF for four months and then slowly added some speed. Even now though, I feel tightness and aches coming back off a few faster runs on harder surfaces. It's one reason I focus on ultra - no real need for me to ever run quicker than an eight minute mile. That said, I'm enjoying using my local parkrun to have a blast on grass and try to improve my form at speed, which should knock on to the lower paces.

What's MAF? some sort of training plan?

[Smitters]

egor110 said:

What's MAF? some sort of training plan?

Smitters said:

This autumn and winter I was giving the Maffetone method a go - sticking at a low max HR for endurance runs, to see if the pace of those runs falls as fitness increases. I've done about 35 runs plus a handful of hilly runs or parkruns and by and large I've found my endurance has increased, but generally my pace for a give HR has stayed the same on the shorter runs. Its not been a waste of time as I like to experiment, but the main benefit was supposed to be a lift in pace for given (low) HR, which I haven't had. What I have had is far more consistent running, and an ability to do back to back days, which tells me that very low intensity running is an important part of a training program.

I've been guilty in the past of doing my slow runs too fast, and then due to residual fatigue, done my fast runs too slow, which has led to both injury and poor performances. Knowing how slow to pace the recovery and LSD runs should give me the energy to get the most out of my more intense sessions, with a good base of strength due to the Maffetone miles. We'll see...

Basically, Google Maffetone Method, MAF training and see where it takes you. Not a plan per say, more an approach to training. There's a calculation to personalise the HR, which seems very general, but also seems to work. Most importantly, it's taught me how low the effort needs to be on easy runs. There's a guy called Ian Sharman on Strava who I quizzed on his easy running. He's a pro ultra runner, and his easy runs are at a similar pace to my easy runs in 2015, which suggests I may have been going too fast...

That said, I also realise that to run faster, I need to, er, run faster, hence starting to add one tempo session a week and seeing if I break into a million pieces.

[markh1973]

egor110 said:

I think i'm still going to do the grizzly

I trained up to 18 miles so only 2 short of race distance and have a month to recover although think i'll go to the gym on the cross trainer or take the bike out.

Luckily there are various people from my running club doing it and there slower than me so might use them as pacers so i don't race it.

Once back to running i need to work on my style , i take massive bounding strides and heel strike i need to take loads more little steps and run to music of 160-170 bpm to get my leg cadence up .

I was able to use the exercise bike for most of my injury - slightly better than a normal bike as there is less risk of twisting the knee - it is all movement in a straight line.

I am lucky with my cadence as it is naturally up at 190 ish. I know something is wrong when my cadence drops below 170/180 or so.

[Smitters]

So I won an entry into the Edinburgh Marathon Festival from Running Heroes. It's pretty vague, but I think this means I've won an entry into the marathon. I was planning a trail marathon in early May. Do I up the ante and go for a pb on the road? I'd have to cannonball it Saturday night and Sunday afternoon as it's May BH, as I'm not paying £1000 to fly and house the OH and MicroSmitters while I jog about in Scotland.

Hmmm. Decisions.

Edited by Smitters on Tuesday 21st February 11:56

[Mothersruin]

Adductor pull from the half marathon ten days ago hadn't healed enough even though it felt absolutely fine - 1 mile into a gentle three miler yesterday and it's back.

Bloody hate groin pulls - take ages to sort.

[john2443]

The jiffle king said:

Sadly no parkrun close to me in the US right now, but maybe moving back to the UK in the summer so looking forward to regular time trials

You'll need http://www.rightmove.co.uk/

and

http://www.parkrun.org.uk/events

One day someone will write something that joins them up! Filter by location, price, number of bedrooms and distance from a parkrun

[Smitters]

Mothersruin said:

Adductor pull from the half marathon ten days ago hadn't healed enough even though it felt absolutely fine - 1 mile into a gentle three miler yesterday and it's back.

Bloody hate groin pulls - take ages to sort.

I feel your pain, so to speak. I had one last year and kept tweaking it. In the end work went mental and I was forced to stop running, so when I started again it was almost from scratch and the slow build up and long lay off got it sorted.

Not to rub it in, but I just had a great lunch run. I used McMillan to calculate various HR and training paces, based on my fitness and desired results and it seems I'm a bit ahead. That's to say running to HR gives me a better pace than McMillan predicts, so I'm faster for my HR than expected. This ties up with the last few weeks of running too, so not a one off. Now's the time to be conservative, not get giddy and go for a flat out segment hunting blast and I may end up with some PBs this year.

[Mothersruin]

Smitters said:

Mothersruin said:

Adductor pull from the half marathon ten days ago hadn't healed enough even though it felt absolutely fine - 1 mile into a gentle three miler yesterday and it's back.

Bloody hate groin pulls - take ages to sort.

I feel your pain, so to speak. I had one last year and kept tweaking it. In the end work went mental and I was forced to stop running, so when I started again it was almost from scratch and the slow build up and long lay off got it sorted.

Yeah - I'm going to back right off, take it easy, focus on other stuff and ensure I don't tweak it again soon.

[tenohfive]

Ultra runners - race day food question:
What do you take that isn't sugary to break up the endless, sickly sweet monotony of gels and powerbars but which still pack a good calorie/carb to weight punch?

During my last one it was a real chore at the end to force another gel down my throat (despite having bars, shots, gels and sweets) so I'm thinking about taking a couple of savoury options along as a treat for longer events. Caveat being that they need to be a) moist enough to neck on the go, b) high carb, c) lightweight-ish and d) easily packaged/non-messy to consume. Any pre-made products or home-made recipes that you use?

Edited by tenohfive on Tuesday 21st February 20:52

[anonymous-user]

Any Ph'ers doing the National XC at Wollaton at the weekend?

I'll be there, hoping to stay out of trouble and put in a decent performance. I was on a roll with my races this winter but the last one I carried an illness into, blew up in the race and had to take ~10 days off running until today-not ideal preparation!

[MattS5]

tenohfive said:

Ultra runners - race day food question:
What do you take that isn't sugary to break up the endless, sickly sweet monotony of gels and powerbars but which still pack a good calorie/carb to weight punch?

During my last one it was a real chore at the end to force another gel down my throat (despite having bars, shots, gels and sweets) so I'm thinking about taking a couple of savoury options along as a treat for longer events. Caveat being that they need to be a) moist enough to neck on the go, b) high carb, c) lightweight-ish and d) easily packaged/non-messy to consume. Any pre-made products or home-made recipes that you use?

Edited by tenohfive on Tuesday 21st February 20:52

The mate I supported on a 100 mile race in October was eating sausage rolls, mini scotch eggs, gels, in fact anything he could keep down.
He said the running was easy, it's training your body to eat constantly is the hard part!