The Running Thread Vol 2

The Running Thread Vol 2

Author
Discussion

john2443

6,341 posts

212 months

Saturday 6th August 2016
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Cybertronian said:
Nice PB - congrats! How did you find having go round the track 25 times? Friend of mine recently did the Welsh version of the Night of 10,000m PBs and vowed to never do a track 10,000m race again. His time came out a minute slower than his road 10k PB!
Thanks. I did expect to be brain dead going round and round, but as I was pushing as hard as I dare all the time I didn't have brain space to think about it.

Once I got going I was thinking 4 laps - that's a 6th; 5 laps a 5th, 6 laps a quarter etc then once I got to 12.5 started counting down again.

I've only run twice on a track and last year I was 30 secs slower for 5000 than my parkrun PB so didn't necessarily expect to be quicker.

Will try the 5000 in a couple of weeks, trying to beat my parkrun 22:57.

The jiffle king

6,920 posts

259 months

Sunday 7th August 2016
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PB's are always good. It's comparing you with yourself and shows your own capability, so whether it's a 35 minute 5K or a 17 minute 5k, a PB is a PB (Unless you are in the US where it is a PR - Personal Record)

Always good to read the PB's on Pistonheads as after a few years of running they are more difficult to achieve but aimed for nonetheless.

Another week over 35 miles for me which is the aim and 54 miles of cycling to and from work which always helps. It's still roasting hot even in the mornings... think 23C at 7am and my evening club runs are done at 6:30 when it's never less than 30C and more usually 33C. You do get used to it, but you have to take it easier and hydrate before during and after.

RizzoTheRat

25,211 posts

193 months

Monday 8th August 2016
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I'm sure I asked something similar a while back but never got round to doing it, so asking again about interval training.

My parkrun PB is a 26:26 (5:17 ish/km), and I was only a couple of seconds short of that a few weeks back, but having not run for a couple of weeks I only managed 28:30 on Saturday (5:42/km). I'd like to improve my parkrun times a bit and have the Worcester 10k coming up next month.

In general I'm more of a sprinter than a long distance runner, I've found recently that I can run 2-3km way quicker than my 5km PB pace but lack the endurance for those last couple of km, which leads me to think I should be doing a longer run at least once a week, as well as an interval run.

If I start doing some intervals one day a week what sort of pace and timings should I be aiming for? Should I be aiming for 10-15s/km quicker than my target pace for a couple of minutes? Or faster and shorter? Should I be trying to get my running time up to my target (eg 13 sets of 2 minute runs), but interspersed with the recovery periods, or is the idea that I work harder for a shorter overall period of time so aim for a total distance of around 5km?

smn159

12,738 posts

218 months

Tuesday 9th August 2016
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RizzoTheRat said:
I'm sure I asked something similar a while back but never got round to doing it, so asking again about interval training.

My parkrun PB is a 26:26 (5:17 ish/km), and I was only a couple of seconds short of that a few weeks back, but having not run for a couple of weeks I only managed 28:30 on Saturday (5:42/km). I'd like to improve my parkrun times a bit and have the Worcester 10k coming up next month.

In general I'm more of a sprinter than a long distance runner, I've found recently that I can run 2-3km way quicker than my 5km PB pace but lack the endurance for those last couple of km, which leads me to think I should be doing a longer run at least once a week, as well as an interval run.

If I start doing some intervals one day a week what sort of pace and timings should I be aiming for? Should I be aiming for 10-15s/km quicker than my target pace for a couple of minutes? Or faster and shorter? Should I be trying to get my running time up to my target (eg 13 sets of 2 minute runs), but interspersed with the recovery periods, or is the idea that I work harder for a shorter overall period of time so aim for a total distance of around 5km?
I'm interested in the answers to this as well. What's worked for me so far is to go out three or four times in the week, plus parkrun on Saturdays. In the week I've found a hilly 5k course, including some off road sections, with a steep hill at the end. Running this at as close to 'race pace' as I can get has taken my parkrun times down from 27:30 in March to 22:30 at the weekend. I keep reading stuff about interval training, tempo runs and the like but have not really worked out a proper programme - largely because my times are still coming down.

Oh, and the recent temperatures make a difference as well I think. It was 9 degrees when I went out this morning and I ran the 'hilly' course within a second of my parkrun PB (20 degrees on Saturday).

RizzoTheRat

25,211 posts

193 months

Tuesday 9th August 2016
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9 degrees? I've been getting slower because it's so hot biggrin

I've been running home from work for the last couple of months, only 3.5km direct but I've trying some alternative longer routes. Usually running home 3-4 times a week, and walking 3.5km to work in the morning, it's made a huge difference getting back up to near my parkrun PB when I struggling to get within 3 minutes of it over the winter. In the really hot weather the other week I got to rather like the route that involved 3.5 km of tracks, then taking my trainers off for the last 2km down the beach, didn't make for particularly quick times though biggrin

Did 12 x 90/60 second intervals on the way home last night, a bit under 5km in total, averaging 5:10/km on the runs. Thinking of doing the same again tonight but more reps as I can add in an extra km with a bit of a hill (there aren't many round here, 7 meters above sea level is better than nothing though), or should I be looking at longer intervals rather than more reps?

smn159

12,738 posts

218 months

Tuesday 9th August 2016
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RizzoTheRat said:
9 degrees? I've been getting slower because it's so hot biggrin

I've been running home from work for the last couple of months, only 3.5km direct but I've trying some alternative longer routes. Usually running home 3-4 times a week, and walking 3.5km to work in the morning, it's made a huge difference getting back up to near my parkrun PB when I struggling to get within 3 minutes of it over the winter. In the really hot weather the other week I got to rather like the route that involved 3.5 km of tracks, then taking my trainers off for the last 2km down the beach, didn't make for particularly quick times though biggrin

Did 12 x 90/60 second intervals on the way home last night, a bit under 5km in total, averaging 5:10/km on the runs. Thinking of doing the same again tonight but more reps as I can add in an extra km with a bit of a hill (there aren't many round here, 7 meters above sea level is better than nothing though), or should I be looking at longer intervals rather than more reps?
Yes, I meant that I can run quicker when it's colder - 20 degrees is too warm for me smile

I generally struggle with the last k, but I think it's because my training runs need to be longer to improve my stamina. If you're running a strong 3k and your training runs are 3.5k, you're probably in the same position!

RizzoTheRat

25,211 posts

193 months

Tuesday 9th August 2016
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I meant I'm impressed you've had 9 degrees, I had a few days in the mid 30's the other week, way too hot.

Definitely agree on distance, my near PB the other week was after I'd been just running the 3.5km direct home 3 times a week, I was going great for the first 3km and then I died and was 20s slower on the next 2 biggrin I need to increase the distance a bit, but tend to lack motivation, which is why running home works so well for me. Only another few weeks working here though and then it'll be back to car commuting so will really need to make an effort to get out in the evenings.

The jiffle king

6,920 posts

259 months

Tuesday 9th August 2016
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I'm not an expert, but the coaches I have known have told me:
1 long run
1 tempo
1 speedwork

You can do other runs to build stamina, but the above are what you need

1 long run - Depends upon what you are training for, but if it's 5k, then work your way to running 8-9km at slower than race pace to build stamina

1 tempo run - Warm up of 1 mile and then run 2 miles at a marginally quicker than race pace or at race pace and 1 mile cool down

1 speedwork - for 5k, I would do 8x400 metres... with 1 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down... Key thing here is to run them all at the same pace.

If you are willing to run further than this, I can suggest other sessions, but the key thing is to build up very slowly and to back off if it's too hard.

Happy to try and answer more if it helps

Camoradi

4,294 posts

257 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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In response to the questions about interval training for a 5/10km run, a little advice on how interval training is beneficial, as explained to me by a very successful coach, and what sort of pace you can aim for.

When you start a run from a low heart rate, your muscles require extra oxygen almost immediately to sustain the additional activity. Your heart rate will respond to this by increasing to provide the required oxygen. However there is a time delay for this to happen, typically 2-3 minutes, during which you are running in a state of mild oxygen debt. If you just go out and run 5km at say 4 min/km, you will go through this cycle once, at the beginning.

If you run 5 x 4km at a little faster pace, say 3:45 per km, with a 1-2 minute jog to recover, you will go through the same cycle 5 times, hence the training benefit is higher than by running the same distance at a constant pace.

So some recommended sessions for a runner aiming at a 20 min 5k (4 min / km) might be

5 x 1000m in 3:45 with 90 second jog recovery. (note jog, not static or walking)
6 x 800m in 3:00 with 90 second jog recovery.
10 x 400m in 90 seconds with 60 seconds (or 100m if on a track) jog recovery

Informal intervals (Fartlek) can also be beneficial and more fun, something like:
30 minutes total with intervals between 60 and 90 seconds, best run off road on varied terrain. Again the emphasis is on relaxed fast running, not eyeballs out sprinting.

All of the above should be preceded by 10-15 minutes warm up (light jogging and a few faster strides) and stretching. Likewise a warm down of the same duration afterwards

Hope this is of some help to someone.





johnwilliams77

8,308 posts

104 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Why must the break be jogging and not walking?

Camoradi

4,294 posts

257 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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johnwilliams77 said:
Why must the break be jogging and not walking?
Walk if you prefer, but I've always found keeping a bit more active in the recovery helps keep muscles warm, and probably helps maintain blood flow.

Also, if training in a group, I've seen a walk result in a chat, and a recovery of about 4 minutes wink

johnwilliams77

8,308 posts

104 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Camoradi said:
johnwilliams77 said:
Why must the break be jogging and not walking?
Walk if you prefer, but I've always found keeping a bit more active in the recovery helps keep muscles warm, and probably helps maintain blood flow.

Also, if training in a group, I've seen a walk result in a chat, and a recovery of about 4 minutes wink
Fair enough
Thanks for the post
Most useful

Jacobyte

4,726 posts

243 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Camoradi said:
johnwilliams77 said:
Why must the break be jogging and not walking?
Walk if you prefer, but I've always found keeping a bit more active in the recovery helps keep muscles warm, and probably helps maintain blood flow.

Also, if training in a group, I've seen a walk result in a chat, and a recovery of about 4 minutes wink
I deliberately slow to a walk in my 90s rests between 1k sprints. As you suggest, the process is specifically to cycle the heart/body through the transition, so walking will have more of an effect of "resetting" the body than jogging.

ETA: Also, aiming for a sub-20m 5k, my 1k sprints increase in pace with each one: 4:05, 4:00, 3:55, 3:50, 3:45. I can rarely achieve the last one as I'm in bits by then.

Edited by Jacobyte on Wednesday 10th August 11:15

RizzoTheRat

25,211 posts

193 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
quotequote all
Useful stuff here, thanks. Although still having the same issue I usually have with this kind of thing in that the people who know what they're on about are talking about <4min/km speeds where I'm looking at >5min/km. I could probably do a 4:30 km but it would only be the one biggrin

Sounds like my 90/60 fartlek isn't a bad approach then, did 15 last night and averaged 5:06/km on the running bits, noticeable slower towards the end but it was a but hillier as well as me being knackered. I'm averaging almost 300m in 90 seconds at the moment. If I look up the instructions I think I could set my watch to a distance run (say 400m) and a time based recovery which might be worth a go at some point. Haven't yet worked out if it can do a virtual pacer on the running segments of a fartlek either.

At my fitness level there's no danger of me cooling down too much in a 60 second walk, takes me a good 10 minutes to cool down biggrin

smn159

12,738 posts

218 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
quotequote all
Camoradi said:
In response to the questions about interval training for a 5/10km run, a little advice on how interval training is beneficial, as explained to me by a very successful coach, and what sort of pace you can aim for.

When you start a run from a low heart rate, your muscles require extra oxygen almost immediately to sustain the additional activity. Your heart rate will respond to this by increasing to provide the required oxygen. However there is a time delay for this to happen, typically 2-3 minutes, during which you are running in a state of mild oxygen debt. If you just go out and run 5km at say 4 min/km, you will go through this cycle once, at the beginning.

If you run 5 x 4km at a little faster pace, say 3:45 per km, with a 1-2 minute jog to recover, you will go through the same cycle 5 times, hence the training benefit is higher than by running the same distance at a constant pace.

So some recommended sessions for a runner aiming at a 20 min 5k (4 min / km) might be

5 x 1000m in 3:45 with 90 second jog recovery. (note jog, not static or walking)
6 x 800m in 3:00 with 90 second jog recovery.
10 x 400m in 90 seconds with 60 seconds (or 100m if on a track) jog recovery

Informal intervals (Fartlek) can also be beneficial and more fun, something like:
30 minutes total with intervals between 60 and 90 seconds, best run off road on varied terrain. Again the emphasis is on relaxed fast running, not eyeballs out sprinting.

All of the above should be preceded by 10-15 minutes warm up (light jogging and a few faster strides) and stretching. Likewise a warm down of the same duration afterwards

Hope this is of some help to someone.
Really useful - thanks!

My next realistic target is an age grading of 70%, for which I need a 5k time of just under 21:30 - or a minute faster than I'm currently managing. Going to adjust your times above and give it a go smile

Camoradi

4,294 posts

257 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
quotequote all
Jacobyte said:
I deliberately slow to a walk in my 90s rests between 1k sprints. As you suggest, the process is specifically to cycle the heart/body through the transition, so walking will have more of an effect of "resetting" the body than jogging.

ETA: Also, aiming for a sub-20m 5k, my 1k sprints increase in pace with each one: 4:05, 4:00, 3:55, 3:50, 3:45. I can rarely achieve the last one as I'm in bits by then.

Edited by Jacobyte on Wednesday 10th August 11:15
Whilst I accept the theory in what you're saying, I think the reality is that the difference between walking and jogging is very little. There will always be variation from one day to another due to conditions, how you're feeling on the day etc. If a walk recovery works for you, go with it.

If I read you correctly you're saying that your "target" times are the reducing pattern shown above, but you're finding it hard to hit the times. I'd advise taking the approach of trying to just run the efforts as if they were the start of a 5km race. Stay relaxed, and maintain your form. The times will be whatever they are on the day.

Jacobyte

4,726 posts

243 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Camoradi said:
If I read you correctly you're saying that your "target" times are the reducing pattern shown above, but you're finding it hard to hit the times. I'd advise taking the approach of trying to just run the efforts as if they were the start of a 5km race. Stay relaxed, and maintain your form. The times will be whatever they are on the day.
Quite right - I know it's probably counter-productive, but I just like pushing myself for that last one to ensure I've left it all out there. When I was training for sub-40 10K I did 4 sets of 2k @ 3:55/km, which is more sensible and consistent.

Camoradi

4,294 posts

257 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Jacobyte said:
....I just like pushing myself for that last one to ensure I've left it all out there.
Nothing wrong with that approach at all.

anonymous-user

55 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Im struggling with this, Im quite short and clearly not physically a runner, as I find it extremely difficult, but Im doing what I can and have been running for nearly a month now.

The worrying thing is that Im tragically slow and unfit. To read people are going for 6 minute miles is insane, and then they keep going for miles, I cant get my head around that. I struggle to do 10 minute miles for 3 miles, and Im quite light and lean so only have about 11 stone to move around.

I must be doing something wrong as Im not really making much in the way of improvements either. Id say if I pushed to the point of being shattered I could do 8 min miles for 3 miles, and Ive not yet run over 3 miles. I am 43 though, and havent really bothered with running before, so maybe Ive left it too late to make anything of this running lark.

Not bad at cycling and used to be a good swimmer, but the ease of being able to go running is really appealing, Im just perplexed that I am so very very bad at doing it.

I try to run 2 - 3 times a week, and so far am sticking to between 2 - 3 miles. Should I try something different like less distance more speed and build from there? change my running technique? give up and spend more time watching TV?

Frustrating stuff.

smn159

12,738 posts

218 months

Wednesday 10th August 2016
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Thunderhead said:
Im struggling with this, Im quite short and clearly not physically a runner, as I find it extremely difficult, but Im doing what I can and have been running for nearly a month now.

The worrying thing is that Im tragically slow and unfit. To read people are going for 6 minute miles is insane, and then they keep going for miles, I cant get my head around that. I struggle to do 10 minute miles for 3 miles, and Im quite light and lean so only have about 11 stone to move around.

I must be doing something wrong as Im not really making much in the way of improvements either. Id say if I pushed to the point of being shattered I could do 8 min miles for 3 miles, and Ive not yet run over 3 miles. I am 43 though, and havent really bothered with running before, so maybe Ive left it too late to make anything of this running lark.

Not bad at cycling and used to be a good swimmer, but the ease of being able to go running is really appealing, Im just perplexed that I am so very very bad at doing it.

I try to run 2 - 3 times a week, and so far am sticking to between 2 - 3 miles. Should I try something different like less distance more speed and build from there? change my running technique? give up and spend more time watching TV?

Frustrating stuff.
I don't think that you're too old at 43 - I'm 52 and only started running this year. Some more knowledgable people than me will be along soon, but what's worked for me so far is;

- couch to 5k to get me started
- Running the same course 3 to 4 times a week and pushing myself to run a bit further without stopping each time until I could get all of the way round
- parkrun on a Saturday. In my experience running well is as much in your head as in your legs. Running with other people around encouraged me to go faster than I normally would and to run for longer. Plus once you have a time from your first run you need to improve on it next time!
- A running watch really helped as well as it told me how I was running relative to my target pace and spurred me on if I started to slow up - Garmin Forerunner 10 for £60 or so worked for me
- A good pair of trainers is a must to avoid injuries
- stretching is a must afterwards

Keep at it smile

Edited by smn159 on Wednesday 10th August 14:48