The Golf Thread - 2016!
Discussion
DuncanM said:
Alpinestars said:
Rosscow said:
Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!! 
Absolutely. The paradox is that a high handicapper is going to have a number of duffs off the tee regardless of what club is taken, and even if he/she manages say 200 yards on a par 4 which is high 300s, that leaves a long iron to the green. I agree that generally a non driver is likely to get you into less trouble off the tee, but it's not a nil sum game. The downside is a) having to keep anything off the tee safe, and b) having longer shots into the green which can also cause a lot of lost shots. Jim is picturing himself (a good golfer) in this scenario, and it skews reality somewhat.
Rosscow said:
DuncanM said:
Alpinestars said:
Rosscow said:
Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!
Absolutely. The paradox is that a high handicapper is going to have a number of duffs off the tee regardless of what club is taken, and even if he/she manages say 200 yards on a par 4 which is high 300s, that leaves a long iron to the green. I agree that generally a non driver is likely to get you into less trouble off the tee, but it's not a nil sum game. The downside is a) having to keep anything off the tee safe, and b) having longer shots into the green which can also cause a lot of lost shots. Jim is picturing himself (a good golfer) in this scenario, and it skews reality somewhat.
This spreadsheet golf only works if the high handicapper is a high handicapper almost purely because of their poor driving, which really isn't usually the case.
It actually has more value a bit further down the HC table, in fact our own Rosscow could probs get down to 10HC by being strict with this advice
DuncanM said:
Rosscow said:
DuncanM said:
Alpinestars said:
Rosscow said:
Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!
Absolutely. The paradox is that a high handicapper is going to have a number of duffs off the tee regardless of what club is taken, and even if he/she manages say 200 yards on a par 4 which is high 300s, that leaves a long iron to the green. I agree that generally a non driver is likely to get you into less trouble off the tee, but it's not a nil sum game. The downside is a) having to keep anything off the tee safe, and b) having longer shots into the green which can also cause a lot of lost shots. Jim is picturing himself (a good golfer) in this scenario, and it skews reality somewhat.
This spreadsheet golf only works if the high handicapper is a high handicapper almost purely because of their poor driving, which really isn't usually the case.
It actually has more value a bit further down the HC table, in fact our own Rosscow could probs get down to 10HC by being strict with this advice
I play off 26 and should probably take note of lots of this advice.
It does make sense when you read it as for some reason unknown to me i've gone from being pretty good with my driver to having an awful slice. Played yesterday and think I hit one decent drive all round. The rest all got away nicely but all ended up in trouble out to the right. So cost me quite a few shots.
I'll commit to making my next round an experiment.
Could potentially be Saturday morning & I won't use the driver. Infact i'll leave it at home.
Off the Tee i'll have to take a 20 degree hybrid or an iron.
And as mentioned above as a high handicapper sometimes my irons can be just as bad off the tee especially if its a long one.
So lets say - nothing longer than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee or the hybrid if its going OK?
On the short play stuff my putting is pretty good - very rarely i go more than a two putt.
My chips in are a mixed bag.
It does make sense when you read it as for some reason unknown to me i've gone from being pretty good with my driver to having an awful slice. Played yesterday and think I hit one decent drive all round. The rest all got away nicely but all ended up in trouble out to the right. So cost me quite a few shots.
I'll commit to making my next round an experiment.
Could potentially be Saturday morning & I won't use the driver. Infact i'll leave it at home.
Off the Tee i'll have to take a 20 degree hybrid or an iron.
And as mentioned above as a high handicapper sometimes my irons can be just as bad off the tee especially if its a long one.
So lets say - nothing longer than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee or the hybrid if its going OK?
On the short play stuff my putting is pretty good - very rarely i go more than a two putt.
My chips in are a mixed bag.
Edited by Dan_1981 on Monday 22 August 15:19
DuncanM said:
Give a 20HC 18 ~ 170yard par 3's to play and I reckon if they shoot better than 72 then they're doing well?
This spreadsheet golf only works if the high handicapper is a high handicapper almost purely because of their poor driving, which really isn't usually the case.
It actually has more value a bit further down the HC table, in fact our own Rosscow could probs get down to 10HC by being strict with this advice
Absolutely. And hence my use of the word paradox. It would probably benefit someone of a better handicap not to take the driver, potentially more than a high handicapper. This spreadsheet golf only works if the high handicapper is a high handicapper almost purely because of their poor driving, which really isn't usually the case.
It actually has more value a bit further down the HC table, in fact our own Rosscow could probs get down to 10HC by being strict with this advice
Whilst we all know a lot of shots are lost putting, how many are any good at it? Pros know this and must practice a lot, but there are still those that aren't as good as others.
I don't have any stats, but as a high handicapper, I'd say course management and the short game is where most shots could be picked up.
For professionals, driving distance is an absolutely key factor. More so than accuracy.
Rosscow said:
I can count on 1 hand when I've hit driver this year! I do tend to go with 3 wood a lot, and fall back on my hybrid.
But you're right, I should do!
The advice you're giving can be flexed for any situation. In yours, what you're saying is that you should be hitting a long ish iron off the tee instead. I bet you wouldn't score much better if you did. But you're right, I should do!
Edited by Alpinestars on Monday 22 August 15:22
Dan_1981 said:
I play off 26 and should probably take note of lots of this advice.
It does make sense when you read it as for some reason unknown to me i've gone from being pretty good with my driver to having an awful slice. Played yesterday and think I hit one decent drive all round. The rest all got away nicely but all ended up in trouble out to the right. So cost me quite a few shots.
I'll commit to making my next round an experiment.
Could potentially be Saturday morning & I won't use the driver. Infact i'll leave it at home.
Off the Tee i'll have to take a 20 degree hybrid or an iron.
And as mentioned above as a high handicapper sometimes my irons can be just as bad off the tee especially if its a long one.
So lets say - nothing longer than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee or the hybrid if its going OK?
That makes sense. Because as you say, it seems to be a given that a high handicapper can hit a long iron straight off the tee. Not the ones I know! But if you genuinely keep the ball in play with say a 6 iron, I think you probably would improve (a bit), until distance becomes the issue ie, having to hit long irons into the green or relying on 2 shorter irons getting you close. It does make sense when you read it as for some reason unknown to me i've gone from being pretty good with my driver to having an awful slice. Played yesterday and think I hit one decent drive all round. The rest all got away nicely but all ended up in trouble out to the right. So cost me quite a few shots.
I'll commit to making my next round an experiment.
Could potentially be Saturday morning & I won't use the driver. Infact i'll leave it at home.
Off the Tee i'll have to take a 20 degree hybrid or an iron.
And as mentioned above as a high handicapper sometimes my irons can be just as bad off the tee especially if its a long one.
So lets say - nothing longer than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee or the hybrid if its going OK?
Alpinestars said:
For professionals, driving distance is an absolutely key factor. More so than accuracy.
I'm actually not sure about this comment.We've seen all too often over last 5 years or so top players changing their swings to chase the distance.
Luke Donald - a fine, fine golfer who thought he had to be longer to compete. It's cost him the best part of 4 years of competing and now he's gone back to what he was doing.
Martin Kaymer - a superb golfer that naturally hits a fade. Decided he had to hit a draw to produce longer shots. All it did was ruin his game. Now gone back to his natural shot and is subsequently climbing the rankings again.
I personally know a European Tour player who is constantly in the top 25 of driving accuracy and driving distance (top 10 last season). He's not won a thing on Tour and may never do, because he is (in his own words) not good enough with his scoring clubs and irons.
Edited by Rosscow on Monday 22 August 15:37
Alpinestars said:
I don't have any stats, but as a high handicapper, I'd say course management and the short game is where most shots could be picked up.
Absolutely. And course management in a nut shell is phrased "what is the least risky way for me to....(insert modest golf-related ambition here)A good one is "what is the least risky way for me to put myself 110 yards from the middle of the green."
That's one that good golfers ask themselves all the time, and which auto-driver-smashers literally never ask themselves.
Alpinestars said:
For professionals, driving distance is an absolutely key factor. More so than accuracy.
Paging Speith! Paging Speith! Put down that well-worn wedge, Sunshine, you're doing it wrong!Rosscow said:
I'm actually not sure about this comment.
We've seen all too often over last 5 years or so top players changing their swings to chase the distance.
Luke Donald - a fine, fine golfer who thought he had to be longer to compete. It's cost him the best part of 4 years of competing and now he's gone back to what he was doing.
Martin Kaymer - a superb golfer that naturally hits a fade. Decided he had to hit a draw to produce longer shots. All it did was ruin his game. Now gone back to his natural shot and is subsequently climbing the rankings again.
I personally know a European Tour player who is constantly in the top 25 of driving accuracy and driving distance (top 10 last season). He's not won a thing on Tour and may never do, because he is (in his own words) not good enough with his scoring clubs and irons.
Here is some analysis which has been done on distance off the tee. We've seen all too often over last 5 years or so top players changing their swings to chase the distance.
Luke Donald - a fine, fine golfer who thought he had to be longer to compete. It's cost him the best part of 4 years of competing and now he's gone back to what he was doing.
Martin Kaymer - a superb golfer that naturally hits a fade. Decided he had to hit a draw to produce longer shots. All it did was ruin his game. Now gone back to his natural shot and is subsequently climbing the rankings again.
I personally know a European Tour player who is constantly in the top 25 of driving accuracy and driving distance (top 10 last season). He's not won a thing on Tour and may never do, because he is (in his own words) not good enough with his scoring clubs and irons.
Edited by Rosscow on Monday 22 August 15:37
http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/news-and-events/gene...
SpeckledJim said:
Paging Speith! Paging Speith! Put down that well-worn wedge, Sunshine, you're doing it wrong!
And here's some analysis of Spieth. http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/mark-broadie-sta...
Alpinestars said:
Here is some analysis which has been done on distance off the tee.
http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/news-and-events/gene...
That's rubbish.http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/news-and-events/gene...
The only thing they've looked at is driving accuracy. What about iron accuracy? Greens in regulation? Putting stats? Scrambling?
Chances are the 5 players that earned £19m are much better at a lot of other things as well driving, than the 5 players that earned £3m.
Their cumulative world ranking is 43 - compared to the other 5 at 1068!
Rosscow said:
That's rubbish.
The only thing they've looked at is driving accuracy. What about iron accuracy? Greens in regulation? Putting stats? Scrambling?
Chances are the 5 players that earned $19m are much better at a lot of other things as well driving, than the 5 players that earned $3m.
Their cumulative world ranking is 43 - compared to the other 5 at 1068!
Read the whole article and then perhaps the next one I posted as well. The only thing they've looked at is driving accuracy. What about iron accuracy? Greens in regulation? Putting stats? Scrambling?
Chances are the 5 players that earned $19m are much better at a lot of other things as well driving, than the 5 players that earned $3m.
Their cumulative world ranking is 43 - compared to the other 5 at 1068!
Alpinestars said:
Dan_1981 said:
I play off 26 and should probably take note of lots of this advice.
It does make sense when you read it as for some reason unknown to me i've gone from being pretty good with my driver to having an awful slice. Played yesterday and think I hit one decent drive all round. The rest all got away nicely but all ended up in trouble out to the right. So cost me quite a few shots.
I'll commit to making my next round an experiment.
Could potentially be Saturday morning & I won't use the driver. Infact i'll leave it at home.
Off the Tee i'll have to take a 20 degree hybrid or an iron.
And as mentioned above as a high handicapper sometimes my irons can be just as bad off the tee especially if its a long one.
So lets say - nothing longer than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee or the hybrid if its going OK?
That makes sense. Because as you say, it seems to be a given that a high handicapper can hit a long iron straight off the tee. Not the ones I know! But if you genuinely keep the ball in play with say a 6 iron, I think you probably would improve (a bit), until distance becomes the issue ie, having to hit long irons into the green or relying on 2 shorter irons getting you close. It does make sense when you read it as for some reason unknown to me i've gone from being pretty good with my driver to having an awful slice. Played yesterday and think I hit one decent drive all round. The rest all got away nicely but all ended up in trouble out to the right. So cost me quite a few shots.
I'll commit to making my next round an experiment.
Could potentially be Saturday morning & I won't use the driver. Infact i'll leave it at home.
Off the Tee i'll have to take a 20 degree hybrid or an iron.
And as mentioned above as a high handicapper sometimes my irons can be just as bad off the tee especially if its a long one.
So lets say - nothing longer than a 5 or 6 iron from the tee or the hybrid if its going OK?
If anyone is regularly losing more than one ball a round, I'd encourage them to wind-in their ambitions a little, because their shot choices aren't really in line with their shot-making abilities. A lost ball is two shots in the bin. That's two bogeys you need to improve into pars.
Two lost balls, and that's like playing a 19 hole course.
Ever watch the guy in the pub who hits every pool/snooker shot with a bit of zip? Mainly because he likes the noise it makes when it hits the pocket, and he thinks it looks flash?
Well, when that guy misses he's not in control of what he leaves, and his opponent, if he's playing properly, will beat him.
Give that guy 14 sticks and a long walk, and he'll play that same way on the golf course. Every drive as far as he can, and every ball straight at every pin.
It isn't good snooker, and it isn't good golf.
How much of the motivation to crush a driver is because it will improve one's chances of a birdie (irrespective of what it does to one's chances of a double-bogey) and how much of it is just that it's great fun and it feels good letting the big dog eat.
SpeckledJim said:
...How much of the motivation to crush a driver is because it will improve one's chances of a birdie (irrespective of what it does to one's chances of a double-bogey) and how much of it is just that it's great fun and it feels good letting the big dog eat.
Maybe that's the point, casual golfers who use crappy warbird balls, and shoot ~100, probably do care much more about letting the big dog eat, than they do about the score DuncanM said:
SpeckledJim said:
...How much of the motivation to crush a driver is because it will improve one's chances of a birdie (irrespective of what it does to one's chances of a double-bogey) and how much of it is just that it's great fun and it feels good letting the big dog eat.
Maybe that's the point, casual golfers who use crappy warbird balls, and shoot ~100, probably do care much more about letting the big dog eat, than they do about the score I can completely see the shallow fun of smacking one. Doesn't compare to the deep, quiet satisfaction of a difficult par that went exactly to plan, though.
Long-driving is already a sport in itself. (like putting should be. Bloody putting!)
DuncanM said:
SpeckledJim said:
...How much of the motivation to crush a driver is because it will improve one's chances of a birdie (irrespective of what it does to one's chances of a double-bogey) and how much of it is just that it's great fun and it feels good letting the big dog eat.
Maybe that's the point, casual golfers who use crappy warbird balls, and shoot ~100, probably do care much more about letting the big dog eat, than they do about the score There's a member at our club who plays off of either 26 or 28 (can't remember which) and he plays with a bad slice, which he allow for by aiming 20 yards left of the fairway. He also hits the ball about 175 yards at most.
Yet he insists on playing Pro V1 balls! When I tried to explain to him that a soft, high spinning ball like a Pro V1 makes his 'shot shape' (I tried to not mention the word slice) worse, he wasn't having any of it.
A Warbird is exactly what he should be using!
SpeckledJim said:
DuncanM said:
SpeckledJim said:
...How much of the motivation to crush a driver is because it will improve one's chances of a birdie (irrespective of what it does to one's chances of a double-bogey) and how much of it is just that it's great fun and it feels good letting the big dog eat.
Maybe that's the point, casual golfers who use crappy warbird balls, and shoot ~100, probably do care much more about letting the big dog eat, than they do about the score I can completely see the shallow fun of smacking one. Doesn't compare to the deep, quiet satisfaction of a difficult par that went exactly to plan, though.
Long-driving is already a sport in itself. (like putting should be. Bloody putting!)
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