Rugby 2016 6N

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Here's the player of the tournament shortlist. A few notable absentees, particularly CJ Stander and Faletau. Not sure Parisse, Nowell, Gareth Davies or Connor Murray have been any great shakes this tournament, either!

http://www.rbs6nations.com/mobile/en/21509.php#55Q...

[Kermit power]

TheGreatSoprendo said:

Here's the player of the tournament shortlist. A few notable absentees, particularly CJ Stander and Faletau. Not sure Parisse, Nowell, Gareth Davies or Connor Murray have been any great shakes this tournament, either!

http://www.rbs6nations.com/mobile/en/21509.php#55Q...

Looking purely at the England players on that list to avoid sparking any arguments with our Celtic cousins, how on earth did Joseph and Nowell make it on there ahead of Kruis & Itoje?

[rb26]

Joey Ramone said:

radambc said:

Not necessarily. There is a proposal that instead of direct relegation, the bottom team would play a play-off over two legs against Georgia, thereby giving them a chance to redeem themselves.
The current situation of a glass ceiling for Georgia (or whoever else might win the European Nations Cup) is unsatisfactory, unfair and unsporting.

Having a play-off arrangement would give Georgia a crack at a chance of playing in the 6 Nations, but would also give Italy (or Scotland or France or whoever) a chance to save themselves. And if they fail to save themselves, then so be it. That's sport. It's not healthy to maintain the current cosy closed shop. If for example, Georgia beat Italy in a play-off over two legs then they deserve to be in the 6 nations and Italy don't.

The problem with that scenario is that you'd simply weaken Italian rugby even further, and hamper its development even more. Add the attrition of two extra test matches after a much more bruising tournament than the ENC.

What needs to happen is that the European game needs to be broadened and strengthened and indeed preserved while simultaneously playing fewer matches, which hints at what someone said elsewhere about having two separate groups of teams which themselves could be interchangeable.

Basically, the 6 Nations is an anachronism. It's a great piss up but in terms of rugby development it's functionally useless and if the only reason we persist with it in its current format is tradition, then we deserve to be perennial runners up when it comes to setting standards in the game.

So make it a tournament with 2 pools (divided by their WR seeding), with the two best teams from each pool going into a semi final and a grand final match (including a play-off match). That way everyone would benefit from playing a higher level of rugby without bothering with a relegation system that would be deeply damaging to Italian rugby. Or keep developing nations, like Georgia, locked out of 'big boys' tournament/championship.

Or do what I said a couple of pages back and divided the tournament into a British and Irish Isles and European Championship, based off a home and away fixture system. Winner of their respective championship plays in a 'Champion of Europe match' and the 2 bottom nations fighting to avoid the wooden spoon in their own play-off match.

If you want to include Georgia, without costing Italian rugby it's future, then the current 6Ns system can not be continued in my opinion.

[dai1983]

rb26 said:

Or do what I said a couple of pages back and divided the tournament into a British and Irish Isles and European Championship, based off a home and away fixture system. Winner of their respective championship plays in a 'Champion of Europe match' and the 2 bottom nations fighting to avoid the wooden spoon in their own play-off match.

Don't think France playing Italy, Georgia and Romania all the time would do them much good!

[rb26]

dai1983 said:

Don't think France playing Italy, Georgia and Romania all the time would do them much good!

Isn't that what the June and November internationals are for? In addition, seeming that the French were the only team to not smash the Italians (OK, Italy were bruised and bloodied by the time they played Ireland and Wales) speaks volumes. In my opinion the problem with French rugby is their clubs hold far too much power and its crippling their international side. The issue being, this is something that is unlikely to change any time soon. Therefore, why should we continue to use the 6Ns system that encourages poor rugby when the French show no signs of positive change?

On the whole, the level of rugby played by England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland was superior to anything the Italians or French have shown throughout this entire competition. An honest question to you. Do you think a separate, home and away based, tournament in the British and Irish isles (NOT IN WINTER, perhaps end of February) would encourage better or worse rugby than what we currently see now? I feel with the current system we have, set in winter, promotes defensive 'trying not to lose' rugby. A home and away fixture, like in the rugby championship, may see the more attacking and positive rugby. Benefiting both British and Irish rugby in the long-run. All in my opinion of course but I'd like to see the current 6Ns system scrapped....

[irocfan]

no a great list TBH - I'd have to say that Vakatawa has been the most interesting/exciting but not really effective. My vote is Billy V

[Joey Ramone]

rb26 said:

Isn't that what the June and November internationals are for? In addition, seeming that the French were the only team to not smash the Italians (OK, Italy were bruised and bloodied by the time they played Ireland and Wales) speaks volumes. In my opinion the problem with French rugby is their clubs hold far too much power and its crippling their international side. The issue being, this is something that is unlikely to change any time soon. Therefore, why should we continue to use the 6Ns system that encourages poor rugby when the French show no signs of positive change?

On the whole, the level of rugby played by England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland was superior to anything the Italians or French have shown throughout this entire competition. An honest question to you. Do you think a separate, home and away based, tournament in the British and Irish isles (NOT IN WINTER, perhaps end of February) would encourage better or worse rugby than what we currently see now? I feel with the current system we have, set in winter, promotes defensive 'trying not to lose' rugby. A home and away fixture, like in the rugby championship, may see the more attacking and positive rugby. Benefiting both British and Irish rugby in the long-run. All in my opinion of course but I'd like to see the current 6Ns system scrapped....

Too parochial. The intention should be to maximise the rugby potential of Italy, Romania, Georgia, Russia (and indeed France), not simply sack them off and play amongst ourselves.

[London424]

Kermit power said:

TheGreatSoprendo said:

Here's the player of the tournament shortlist. A few notable absentees, particularly CJ Stander and Faletau. Not sure Parisse, Nowell, Gareth Davies or Connor Murray have been any great shakes this tournament, either!

http://www.rbs6nations.com/mobile/en/21509.php#55Q...

Looking purely at the England players on that list to avoid sparking any arguments with our Celtic cousins, how on earth did Joseph and Nowell make it on there ahead of Kruis & Itoje?

Whoever helped in the compilation of that list shouldn't be allowed to provide an opinion on rugby ever again. Absolutely embarrassing selections of England players, won't comment on the other nations as didn't see enough. Billy V the only saving grace. Kruis was my player of the tournament I think. Itoji should be in having only played 3 games too.

[Murph7355]

Joey Ramone said:

....

Basically, the 6 Nations is an anachronism. It's a great piss up but in terms of rugby development it's functionally useless and if the only reason we persist with it in its current format is tradition, then we deserve to be perennial runners up when it comes to setting standards in the game.

Maybe we should just ask to be part of the Tri-Nations...

[Welshbeef]

Murph7355 said:

Maybe we should just ask to be part of the Tri-Nations...

You get your first slam in 13 years (Wales had 3 in that time frame plus a championship on top of that to boot) and your thinking England should be part of the Tri nations and leave the rest behind...

Did I read that wrong?

[DocJock]

Murph7355 said:

Maybe we should just ask to be part of the Tri-Nations...

Good idea, except the Tri-Nations was superceded by the Rugby Champoinship in 2012...

[dai1983]

European championship every four years as per football? That way the even lesser teams could participate?

[irocfan]

Welshbeef said:

You get your first slam in 13 years (Wales had 3 in that time frame plus a championship on top of that to boot) and your thinking England should be part of the Tri nations and leave the rest behind...

Did I read that wrong?

wind your neck in If you want your rugby to improve I'd recommend joining the Rugby Championship - be it England, Ireland, Scotland, France or even Wales. I'd be surprised if it's a comment that England are sooooo much better

[epom]

No CJ Stander on that list ?? Really ?

[Kermit power]

irocfan said:

Welshbeef said:

You get your first slam in 13 years (Wales had 3 in that time frame plus a championship on top of that to boot) and your thinking England should be part of the Tri nations and leave the rest behind...

Did I read that wrong?

wind your neck in If you want your rugby to improve I'd recommend joining the Rugby Championship - be it England, Ireland, Scotland, France or even Wales. I'd be surprised if it's a comment that England are sooooo much better

It does make for an interesting discussion about just why Wales are so particularly outstandingly woeful against Southern Hemisphere opposition though.

Over the last decade, the Home Nations have won 26% (Ireland), 19% (England), 15% (Scotland) and 6% (Wales) of their matches against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3. All woeful, of course, but Wales particularly so.

Playing against the other Home Nations, on the other hand, Wales have won 43% (Ireland), 53% (England) and 91% (Scotland) of games played over the same period of time.

Why is there such a huge gulf between Wales' results against other Home Nations, and their results against Southern Hemisphere nations?

[radambc]

rb26 said:

If you want to include Georgia, without costing Italian rugby it's future, then the current 6Ns system can not be continued in my opinion.

Do Italy deserve more chances? They've had 17 years of being in the 6 nations and they haven't done much, and it doesn't look as if they're going to do much in the future. They will continue to be the perennial whipping boys. Giving Georgia a play-off against the holders of the wooden spoon is the way forward. Not only will it give the likes of Georgia something to play for, it will also inject an extra sense of urgency at the bottom of the six nations.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Kermit power said:

It does make for an interesting discussion about just why Wales are so particularly outstandingly woeful against Southern Hemisphere opposition though.

Over the last decade, the Home Nations have won 26% (Ireland), 19% (England), 15% (Scotland) and 6% (Wales) of their matches against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3. All woeful, of course, but Wales particularly so.

Playing against the other Home Nations, on the other hand, Wales have won 43% (Ireland), 53% (England) and 91% (Scotland) of games played over the same period of time.

Why is there such a huge gulf between Wales' results against other Home Nations, and their results against Southern Hemisphere nations?

You're absolutely right, it's an interesting question. Looking at the results over the last 10 years or so, Wales have won 3 and drawn 1 against the SANZAR nations. Whilst there have been a few dismal hammerings, it's interesting how close many of the matches have been. 3 games have been lost by just 1 point, a further 3 games by 2 points and a further 7 by 5 points or less. From memory, a significant number of those have been lost at the death from winning positions, which seems to suggest a lack of mental strength and self belief to close out tight games. It's definitely something we need to improve upon but I fear that's not going to happen under Gatland's tenure.

v Australia

Date	Score	Winner	Competition
10 October 2015	15 – 6	Australia	2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A
8 November 2014	28 – 33	Australia	2014 Autumn International
30 November 2013	26 – 30	Australia	2013 Autumn International
1 December 2012	12 – 14	Australia	2012 Autumn International
23 June 2012	20 – 19	Australia	Welsh Tour of Australia
16 June 2012	25 – 23	Australia	Welsh Tour of Australia
9 June 2012	27 – 19	Australia	Welsh Tour of Australia
3 December 2011	18 – 24	Australia	2011 Autumn International
21 October 2011	21 – 18	Australia	3rd place playoff of 2011 Rugby World Cup
6 November 2010	16 – 25	Australia	2010 Autumn International
28 November 2009	12 – 33	Australia	2009 Autumn International
29 November 2008	21 – 18	Wales	2008 Autumn International
15 September 2007	20 – 32	Australia	Pool stage of 2007 Rugby World Cup
2 June 2007	31 – 0	Australia	2007 Welsh tour of Australia
26 May 2007	29 – 23	Australia	2007 Welsh tour of Australia
4 November 2006	29 – 29	draw	2006 Autumn International
26 November 2005	24 – 22	Wales	2005 Autumn International

v New Zealand

22 November 2014	16 – 34	New Zealand	2014 Autumn International
24 November 2012	10 – 33	New Zealand	2012 Autumn International
27 November 2010	25 – 37	New Zealand	2010 Autumn International

||26 June 2010|| 29 – 10|| New Zealand ||2010 mid-year rugby test series||
||19 June 2010|| 42 – 9 || New Zealand||2010 mid-year rugby test series||

7 November 2009	12 – 19	New Zealand	2009 Autumn International
22 November 2008	9 – 29	New Zealand	2008 Autumn International
25 November 2006	10 – 45	New Zealand	2006 Autumn International
5 November 2005	3 – 41	New Zealand	2005 Autumn Internationals
20 November 2004	25 – 26	New Zealand	2004 Autumn Internationals

v South Africa

17 October 2015	23–19	South Africa	2015 Rugby World Cup Quarter-final
29 November 2014	12–6	Wales	2014 Autumn International
21 June 2014	31–30	South Africa	Welsh Tour to South Africa
14 June 2014	38–16	South Africa	Welsh tour to South Africa
9 November 2013	15–24	South Africa	2013 Autumn International
11 September 2011	17–16	South Africa	2011 Rugby World Cup
13 November 2010	25–29	South Africa	2010 Autumn Internationals
5 June 2010	31–34	South Africa
8 November 2008	15–20	South Africa	2008 Autumn Internationals
14 June 2008	37–21	South Africa	Welsh tour to South Africa
7 June 2008	43–17	South Africa	Welsh tour to South Africa
24 November 2007	12–34	South Africa	2007 Autumn Internationals
19 November 2005	16–33	South Africa	2005 Autumn Internationals
6 November 2004	36–38	South Africa	2004 Autumn Internationals

[Murph7355]

Welshbeef said:

You get your first slam in 13 years (Wales had 3 in that time frame plus a championship on top of that to boot) and your thinking England should be part of the Tri nations and leave the rest behind...

Did I read that wrong?

DocJock said:

Good idea, except the Tri-Nations was superceded by the Rugby Champoinship in 2012...

It was tongue in cheek you pair of numpties. Read the post I was replying to.

Still, you're forgiven. Getting beaten by the English will be smarting for quite some time for you guys

I wouldn't give up this championship for the world as this sort of thing, no matter how rarely it may or may not happen, is tip top

Roll on 29th May Welshbeef

[Welshbeef]

Murph7355 said:

It was tongue in cheek you pair of numpties. Read the post I was replying to.

Still, you're forgiven. Getting beaten by the English will be smarting for quite some time for you guys

I wouldn't give up this championship for the world as this sort of thing, no matter how rarely it may or may not happen, is tip top

Roll on 29th May Welshbeef

I'll be there - unsettled business in expecting a huge performance by Wales plus they need to be ready for NZ x3 following it.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Welshbeef said:

I'll be there - unsettled business in expecting a huge performance by Wales plus they need to be ready for NZ x3 following it.

Really? It's a completely pointless dead rubber of a fixture, so anything could happen and probably will.

In other news, Will Greenwood's Lions selection is more sensible than most. He was bloody annoying as a player, mainly for his uncanny knack of scoring against Wales, but I like him a lot as a pundit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/22/...