Discussion
Hi All. "Wesley is fast approaching his MOT after 14 years rest. Unfortunately the first glitch being; getting rather warm, 120 degrees and boiling in the expansion tank. So I fitted a electric rad fan. It helps but static running in my workshop still sees the temperature creeping up. I would have thought a 16" fan would control the temp a bit? Which makes me think have I got the cooling system pipe work right. Andy from NZ gave me a rough diagram. The two connections I'm not sure about are the small pipe from the front of the thermostat housing, presently connected to the heater/expansion tank and the rear thermostat small connection pipe presently connected to the top of the heads via a preformed pipe. Does this sound right please?
The other problem is warm starting. Cold start no problem, hot starting OK. Leave the vehicle for 20 minutes and it refuses to start. I checked the aux air valve, (the one connected to the throttle housing), the plate inside seems free and there's resistance across the connects. The pumps running whilst cranking and if I leave the vehicle for a longer period it starts fine. Thoughts please? Incidentally where's the thermo switch? I understand this controls starting etc. I have also slaved in a replacement ignition coil in case that was breaking down.Thanks for any pointers. Cheers J C.
The other problem is warm starting. Cold start no problem, hot starting OK. Leave the vehicle for 20 minutes and it refuses to start. I checked the aux air valve, (the one connected to the throttle housing), the plate inside seems free and there's resistance across the connects. The pumps running whilst cranking and if I leave the vehicle for a longer period it starts fine. Thoughts please? Incidentally where's the thermo switch? I understand this controls starting etc. I have also slaved in a replacement ignition coil in case that was breaking down.Thanks for any pointers. Cheers J C.
Hi John...Hot start or warm start issues can be linked to a failing fuel accumulator which sits next to the fuel pump..The diaphragm can perish and leak fuel which causes fuel pressure to drop off...There should be a vent pipe on the back of it and this should only release air and not fuel...You can test it by clamping the feed to the bulkhead from the accumulator and removing the vent pipe at the rear of the unit to see if any fuel comes out...If it does cap it off and join the fuel pump feed to the feed from the accumulator that goes to the engine.
Can you take any pics of the coolant pipes...
Im pretty sure what i drew out was correct...
Have you got a 16lbs pressure cap on the expansion tank and a blanking cap on the rad?....
Can you take any pics of the coolant pipes...
Im pretty sure what i drew out was correct...
Have you got a 16lbs pressure cap on the expansion tank and a blanking cap on the rad?....
Hi again Zig. Sorry, it was you that kindly sent the coolant pipe layout. Yep I've got a new blanking rad'cap and the expansion cap is rated at 15psi ex Ford Festa expansion tank. Could that be the problem? What temperatures do the V6i's normally run at static? From your post I think, reference the starting problem, you're suggesting by-passing the fuel pump accumulator Zig? Funny enough that's one item that wasn't replaced during refurbishment. So tomorrow I will pull the accumulator vent pipe off and if there's fuel present I guess the diaphragm has failed? Thanks Zig. J C.
Hi John...Not sure about the expansion tank causing a problem..My 280i used to run to about 88-90 degrees...The fan used to kick in at around 92-94...Do you have a clutch fan or electric aftermarket?...Also the thermostat could cause it if its sticking and bear in mind that they can be fitted round the wrong way..Coolant boiling is normally down to the system not pressurising so check for any leaks..Also the original rads were pants...They were out of a Granada and apparently were 2 core and very inefficient on the Granny let alone a close engine compartment of a TVR...Could be blocked with crud....
Thanks Zig. Mines running about 120 degrees if I let it get that far. It has a viscous fan fitted and now because of the problem a 16" electric fan as well with a adjustable thermostat set at 80 degrees. The rad is a newly refurbished with a new core. The thermostat I checked in hot water before fitting, hopefully the right way round, working parts into the housing?
I have another cap for the expansion tank so will try that. Is it perhaps that it's running in a confined space, ie workshop? However I would have thought the electric fan would have brought the temperature to heel? The engine has been rebuilt so the waterways were all flushed out. Just been looking at the prices of fuel accumulators.
Have they got gold inside them?
Strange this cooling system with the thermostat in the bottom hose? More investigation need I think. Cheers Zig.
I have another cap for the expansion tank so will try that. Is it perhaps that it's running in a confined space, ie workshop? However I would have thought the electric fan would have brought the temperature to heel? The engine has been rebuilt so the waterways were all flushed out. Just been looking at the prices of fuel accumulators. Have they got gold inside them? Strange this cooling system with the thermostat in the bottom hose? More investigation need I think. Cheers Zig. I think your fan temperature setting is way too low...If you have a 86 or 88 degree thermostat in there then it might not be opening due to "Over cooling" and then the coolant will not flow through the rad and back round...Ideally you will need to calibrate the water temperature with a laser pointer thermometer...You want the electric fan coming on at around 4 degrees passed the opening of the thermostat...I personally wouldn't have a clutch fan and electric..A good "Puller" fan albeit not loads of room is better cos all the clutch fan is doing is blowing it around the engine bay..A cowling on the rad would be a much better adage ..
When its ticking over from cold you can remove the rad cap..(Expansion tank) and you should see a flow...When you blip the throttle body it should increase...One point to check would be the overflow on the radiator filler neck as its possible to over tighten the clip and crush it closed...Like someone did to mine when i left it there for some work...The overflow on the rad filler neck is part of the actual flow of the system....TBH i went through times when I'm coming through the heart of the west end and Delilah decides she wants to draw attention to herself by imitating a geyser ...No not a "Geezer"...That would be just plain weird...Anyhow...Like a steam train she would blow her load all over the floor and embarrass me..(The dirty mare)...The crushed 8mm outlet was only realised when i drove back from the ACE cafe one night in heavy traffic..I could literally feel the car rumbling...Here comes a "Gusher"..The only consolation was the weight reduction due to all the water i used to have to carry being used up although that in itself was not good...
When its ticking over from cold you can remove the rad cap..(Expansion tank) and you should see a flow...When you blip the throttle body it should increase...One point to check would be the overflow on the radiator filler neck as its possible to over tighten the clip and crush it closed...Like someone did to mine when i left it there for some work...The overflow on the rad filler neck is part of the actual flow of the system....TBH i went through times when I'm coming through the heart of the west end and Delilah decides she wants to draw attention to herself by imitating a geyser ...No not a "Geezer"...That would be just plain weird...Anyhow...Like a steam train she would blow her load all over the floor and embarrass me..(The dirty mare)...The crushed 8mm outlet was only realised when i drove back from the ACE cafe one night in heavy traffic..I could literally feel the car rumbling...Here comes a "Gusher"..The only consolation was the weight reduction due to all the water i used to have to carry being used up although that in itself was not good...
I'm sorry Zig but I've got to ask, why Delilah? Anyway initially I did set the electric fan thermostat at 90 degrees. Not much change, the temp kept climbing. Good point about the rad overflow pipe another area for investigation. Flow check into the tank another area, plus the temp of the bottom rad hose to the expansion tank to verify the 'Stat openning. Cheers J C
List of stuff in no order, may be relevant, may not ....
Hot starting - Yes a lot of 2.8i Capri engines DID have hot start problems. This is because the start injector is set not to inject if engine over something like 60c, but engine probably needs a little bit of extra gas. Later ones had a 'pulsed' setup, which apparently helped. Mine needs to have foot on the gas pedal about 1/3 down when hot, otherwise it won't catch. Takes a bit of practice, but it works.....
Flow - sounds stupid, but on two occasions I've seen the thermostat put in the wrong way round. It actually fits that way !
I noticed that they way mine was originally plumbed, the expansion tank was effectively a bypass for the radiator. This is because the 'T' piece (which links to bottom of expansion tank) was plumbed in the wrong heater pipe.
I noticed this is NOT they way Ford originally plumbed the Capri.
Mine ran fine, but got hot quick in traffic, and then rad developed a leak. The repair guy said HALF THE RAD WAS BLOCKED UP, and I never noticed .... it's HUGELY better now.
My overflow tank cracked, and I've replaced it with just an old style single copper expansion tank, with just the 6mm (ish) pipe connected to very top engine outlet and no other joins, and a 20lb cap on rad, 14lb on overflow, and that works well.
Early 2.3 and 2.8 setups in Euro Fords didn't even have an expansion tank.
Hot starting - Yes a lot of 2.8i Capri engines DID have hot start problems. This is because the start injector is set not to inject if engine over something like 60c, but engine probably needs a little bit of extra gas. Later ones had a 'pulsed' setup, which apparently helped. Mine needs to have foot on the gas pedal about 1/3 down when hot, otherwise it won't catch. Takes a bit of practice, but it works.....
Flow - sounds stupid, but on two occasions I've seen the thermostat put in the wrong way round. It actually fits that way !
I noticed that they way mine was originally plumbed, the expansion tank was effectively a bypass for the radiator. This is because the 'T' piece (which links to bottom of expansion tank) was plumbed in the wrong heater pipe.
I noticed this is NOT they way Ford originally plumbed the Capri.
Mine ran fine, but got hot quick in traffic, and then rad developed a leak. The repair guy said HALF THE RAD WAS BLOCKED UP, and I never noticed .... it's HUGELY better now.
My overflow tank cracked, and I've replaced it with just an old style single copper expansion tank, with just the 6mm (ish) pipe connected to very top engine outlet and no other joins, and a 20lb cap on rad, 14lb on overflow, and that works well.
Early 2.3 and 2.8 setups in Euro Fords didn't even have an expansion tank.
I forgot to say...Make sure the rad caps have a good seal on them...I used a new blanking cap on Poppy and it started hissing out so i used the old one which is still okay...Just a thought...If you are asking "Why Delilah"...Well the "Why" bit is self explanatory being TVR....And Delilah because of the song and its also better than standing there shouting obscenities at her every time she broke down...In the first year of ownership the RAC said i have used them 11 times and this is the last one...She never broke down after that...I think there was something spooky about that car...Im sure one of her off-sprogs was my friends SX...He told me that his started up one day on its own...Scary....
When I bought mine, it too wasn't very good, and broke down several times - but it wasn't haunted, just badly maintained. After redoing bits of wiring, cleaning connectors, new spark plugs, new plug leads, fuel filter, (etc.) it was FAR, FAR better...
Then the headlamps pods - same jobs, wiring, cleaning, ...
Then the headlamps pods - same jobs, wiring, cleaning, ...
RCK974X said:
Looking at that diagram, I think yours too is the same - the T is in the wrong pipe, so hot water can bypass the rad....
(? I think ?)
Mmmm...That Tee is definitely in the right place according to the way it was plumbed in..I did however remove that and connect the matrix hoses together as i never needed to use the heater inside the car...The only time i saw a massive improvement was when i spent £500 on a custom built 3 core alloy rad and a £200 18" turbo boost kenlowe fan..Even when i had the original rad rebuilt with 3 core it was just about managing...Sounds like the system is not pressurising or there is a blockage that is restricting the flow.....(? I think ?)
Zig, Yeah, but if you trace the plumbing, it means that hot water can flow across the overflow tank, without going through the rad.
On the Capri, (which uses same tank) the bottom outlet and T are plumbed into the OTHER heater pipe, so that all the pipes are on the PUSH/OUT of the water pump....but TVR moved the overflow tank to other side - they should have plumbed the T across the engine ...
Whether this actually matters, I don't know, it could be it's more of an issue if rad gets partly blocked or something like that - It just strikes me as wrong, so just adding as a possible cause.
Could be a scarlet kipper (very old Manchester slang for a red herring) so ...
John, I think Zig is probably right, and on balance, your rad is probably gummed up, or thermostat seized.
Or if you've rebuilt (I think you have done water pump ?) , remember the correct thermostat has an extra plate on its end, which closes that hose off at the back, which is a designed-in bypass for faster warm-up
On the Capri, (which uses same tank) the bottom outlet and T are plumbed into the OTHER heater pipe, so that all the pipes are on the PUSH/OUT of the water pump....but TVR moved the overflow tank to other side - they should have plumbed the T across the engine ...
Whether this actually matters, I don't know, it could be it's more of an issue if rad gets partly blocked or something like that - It just strikes me as wrong, so just adding as a possible cause.
Could be a scarlet kipper (very old Manchester slang for a red herring) so ...
John, I think Zig is probably right, and on balance, your rad is probably gummed up, or thermostat seized.
Or if you've rebuilt (I think you have done water pump ?) , remember the correct thermostat has an extra plate on its end, which closes that hose off at the back, which is a designed-in bypass for faster warm-up
Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 6th February 23:37
Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 6th February 23:39
Thanks chaps. The first thing I'm going to do is check the flow from the bottom hose and reverse the heater pipes. Often thought why the right hand pipe went across the rear of the engine to join onto the T piece? Whether this will make a difference,?? The thermostat problem should hopefull be revealed by checking the temp' on start up and running. Cheers all. John C.
Thanks Andy/Zig for the thoughts. Today, household chores permitting I will swap the heater hoses over and check the flow from the bottom hose, plus the fuel accumulator vent pipe for any fuel bypass. Incidentally I've got a niggling doubt about the thermostat. What is the correct way? At the moment I'm sure it was fitted with the wax capsule facing rearwards, into the timing cover housing?? Should it be facing the other way into the flow from the bottom of radiator? Cheers J C.
Hi John...IIRC i think its spring side facing the rad...Some of the aftermarket types, Especially the silver looking ones do stick...The heavy brass ones are the best...Before you go undoing anything does the bottom rad hose get hot along with the rad as this would suggest its the right way round and that the issue might be a bad sealing cap...Cheers..Ziga
Good Morning Zig. Just escaped for a quick "Wesley" Ran it him up and sure enough top of the rad hot 90+ degrees and the bottom of rad and hose are cold. So either the thermostat is in the wrong way,ie spring etc facing the rear or it's failed shut. Either way there's no flow through the rad. Checked the fuel accumulator vent pipe whilst running and static, no evidence of fuel from that side of the diaphragm. Servicable? Where's the thermo switch for the fuel system please? Is it part of unit mounted on the front of the engine with pipes from the fuel distributor? Many thanks Zig I'm sure when I take the thermostat out it will be facing the wrong way but at least it will confirm the overheating I hope. Cheers John C.
Hi John...Sounds like the stat is either stuck or the wrong way round..PITA.
As far as i know there is no "Thermo switch" as such for the fuel...There is a fuel pump relay and the components for cold start but i can't see them giving you trouble from "Hot/Warm" starting...I had a hot start issue...The car would not run if i turned it off after using it for a couple of hours...She would only restart when she had cooled down...This was attributed to the fuel accumulator which i eventually by-passed which solved that issue..Oh and some really shyte fuel hose pluming that was causing cavitation of the pump..You can buy new ones but i never bothered for ages, I just unplugged the metering head plug so that the pump would prime on the first key position.
Vapour lock can happen in some cases but i don't think thats your issue...A good way to test to see if its the accumulator is to join the fuel pump hose that goes into the accumulator pump side to the hose that comes out on the accumulator engine side which goes to the metering unit via a bulkhead fuel filter.
As far as i know there is no "Thermo switch" as such for the fuel...There is a fuel pump relay and the components for cold start but i can't see them giving you trouble from "Hot/Warm" starting...I had a hot start issue...The car would not run if i turned it off after using it for a couple of hours...She would only restart when she had cooled down...This was attributed to the fuel accumulator which i eventually by-passed which solved that issue..Oh and some really shyte fuel hose pluming that was causing cavitation of the pump..You can buy new ones but i never bothered for ages, I just unplugged the metering head plug so that the pump would prime on the first key position.
Vapour lock can happen in some cases but i don't think thats your issue...A good way to test to see if its the accumulator is to join the fuel pump hose that goes into the accumulator pump side to the hose that comes out on the accumulator engine side which goes to the metering unit via a bulkhead fuel filter.
Thanks Zig. Can you confirm that the correct way the thermostat fits is with the working parts (Wax capsule/spring etc) facing the radiator please? It makes sense that the fuel accumulator might be the problem on warm starts although it's not leaking across the diaphragm. By by-passing it will confirm one way or another. I don't seem to have a plug on my fuel distributor? Off to drain "Wesley's" waters. Cheers J C.
Cheers J C.Gassing Station | Wedges | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff