Jiu Jitsu discussion / complete beginner!
Discussion
Pete102 said:
MC, I'm inclined to agree with you. In my opinion, pure BJJ appears to be falling aside somewhat and making way for a hybrid Judo-BJJ-Wrestling approach.
Yes, it's almost as if everything goes full circle.
Wrestling is innate (at a basic level) and ancient, Judo was wrestling in a gi with an emphasis on the "gentle" (albeit fairly brutal!) way, that has tried to differentiate itself in a sporting context in recent decades. BJJ was a development of judo groundwork. A good combination of skills is important.
In competition, the mats or sprung floor take away from the 'impact' of throws and takedowns, so the groundwork specialist may not always appreciate that. A hard takedown can hurt, even on a mat.
I agree that the pins and side control are useful and what I gravitate towards for the quick submission (or escape in a street encounter)
Shooting in on the knees for a leg takedown still seems a bit alien to me. Not permitted in modern Judo and in would have resulted in broken knees in Rugby...
As somebody who is not looking to compete, I regard grappling (along with boxing) as a life skill that helps maintain physical condition & agility, mental agility and confidence (albeit without overdoing it and being battered into the mat too much).
A dynamic, quicker style suits me (I was a mobile, hard tackling, flanker in rugby when I was younger) and my needs, although I can see that the less impactful, more meticulous, groundwork of BJJ suits the needs of others. As I age further I may change.
Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 12th December 09:43
Pete102 said:
No, I like the school PE kit look, it’s nice to be underestimated as a newbie 
I turned up to the class as a mature chap in a Hayabusa rash guard.
There were a few enquiries as to whether I was a BJJ purple belt or something
(I think most still think I'm playing down my previous)
Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 12th December 16:13
We did a bit of wrestling takedown progressions last night. Shooting for single leg to double leg to taking the back to take-down etc. Then had a few rounds of practice at taking-down / resisting (and reversing) take-down. I felt that I'd picked it up reasonably well, and despite doing reasonably well at the takedown randori,
I was probably a bit scrappy. I need to do some better throws.
Moving on to some groundwork & attacking the turtle position (fewer options without a gi).
Followed by a bit of rolling starting from various positions, some of which I'm not that familiar with.
In rolling, I'm noticing that I have more "time" than I did when I started a few weeks ago, and developing an "approach" (I couldn't call it a "style"
), with more variety of submissions. I do need to practice escapes from some positions/evade traps.
Ps. There were more "How old are you?" and "My Dad is younger than you, but couldn't do this" comments.
Pps. Technique >> strength, but the range of apparent strength between different people is always surprising. It may be more of a case of how efficiently people can move and apply their weight, but I suspect that core/trunk strength is key.
I was probably a bit scrappy. I need to do some better throws.
Moving on to some groundwork & attacking the turtle position (fewer options without a gi).
Followed by a bit of rolling starting from various positions, some of which I'm not that familiar with.
In rolling, I'm noticing that I have more "time" than I did when I started a few weeks ago, and developing an "approach" (I couldn't call it a "style"
), with more variety of submissions. I do need to practice escapes from some positions/evade traps. Ps. There were more "How old are you?" and "My Dad is younger than you, but couldn't do this" comments.
Pps. Technique >> strength, but the range of apparent strength between different people is always surprising. It may be more of a case of how efficiently people can move and apply their weight, but I suspect that core/trunk strength is key.
MC Bodge said:
We did a bit of wrestling takedown progressions last night. Shooting for single leg to double leg to taking the back to take-down etc. Then had a few rounds of practice at taking-down / resisting (and reversing) take-down. I felt that I'd picked it up reasonably well, and despite doing reasonably well at the takedown randori,
I was probably a bit scrappy. I need to do some better throws.
Moving on to some groundwork & attacking the turtle position (fewer options without a gi).
Followed by a bit of rolling starting from various positions, some of which I'm not that familiar with.
In rolling, I'm noticing that I have more "time" than I did when I started a few weeks ago, and developing an "approach" (I couldn't call it a "style"), with more variety of submissions. I do need to practice escapes from some positions/evade traps.
Ps. There were more "How old are you?" and "My Dad is younger than you, but couldn't do this" comments.
Pps. Technique >> strength, but the range of apparent strength between different people is always surprising. It may be more of a case of how efficiently people can move and apply their weight, but I suspect that core/trunk strength is key.
The Technique beats strength argument is true to a point. Once a seasoned guy can apply strength with the technique, it becomes a whole new ball game. As a result of years of consistent lifting I consider myself to have a pretty good base level of strength (at my peak I was regularly hitting a 240kg Deadlift, 130kg bench press and 180kg Squat) however, I am often surprised by how weak some guys feeling, despite looking physically big and strong. On the other hand, I know of a scaffolder who doesnt look big, but he is one of the strongest grapplers I know. I was probably a bit scrappy. I need to do some better throws.
Moving on to some groundwork & attacking the turtle position (fewer options without a gi).
Followed by a bit of rolling starting from various positions, some of which I'm not that familiar with.
In rolling, I'm noticing that I have more "time" than I did when I started a few weeks ago, and developing an "approach" (I couldn't call it a "style"
), with more variety of submissions. I do need to practice escapes from some positions/evade traps. Ps. There were more "How old are you?" and "My Dad is younger than you, but couldn't do this" comments.
Pps. Technique >> strength, but the range of apparent strength between different people is always surprising. It may be more of a case of how efficiently people can move and apply their weight, but I suspect that core/trunk strength is key.
Pete102 said:
The Technique beats strength argument is true to a point. Once a seasoned guy can apply strength with the technique, it becomes a whole new ball game. As a result of years of consistent lifting I consider myself to have a pretty good base level of strength (at my peak I was regularly hitting a 240kg Deadlift, 130kg bench press and 180kg Squat) however, I am often surprised by how weak some guys feeling, despite looking physically big and strong. On the other hand, I know of a scaffolder who doesnt look big, but he is one of the strongest grapplers I know.
Some people, even some large people, appear to have surprisingly little static resistance or dynamic "spring". Many appear to get gassed quickly in rolling or in boxing sparring. Others are surprisingly strong. Much of it must be down to long-term conditioning from an early age, and part of it must be down to mindset/grit.Large mass must make being "strong" easier if you can make use of the large mass.
I'm considered quite "generally strong" for a man of my size (I think I make good dynamic use of what I have. I've always been like that). My peak strength is probably less impressive than my strength endurance (I can dig/carry/lift a reasonable bit over a day, despite being mostly a desk jockey for years, albeit with a regular mix of training), which is possibly similar to the scaffolder.
I should probably dig out the barbell, as I'm now curious (... Must not over-do it...)
Pete102 said:
Thought you might appreciate this little foot sweep from my last session, yes I don’t wear Lycra to grapple in…what of it ?? 
Why did you let go of him? I would always try to hold at least an arm for an arm bar or triangle or follow him right down into a pin. Good sweep, I'm being hyper critical for someone who hasn't been on a mat for ten years or more!! Pete102 said:
MC Bodge said:
We did a bit of wrestling takedown progressions last night. Shooting for single leg to double leg to taking the back to take-down etc. Then had a few rounds of practice at taking-down / resisting (and reversing) take-down. I felt that I'd picked it up reasonably well, and despite doing reasonably well at the takedown randori,
I was probably a bit scrappy. I need to do some better throws.
Moving on to some groundwork & attacking the turtle position (fewer options without a gi).
Followed by a bit of rolling starting from various positions, some of which I'm not that familiar with.
In rolling, I'm noticing that I have more "time" than I did when I started a few weeks ago, and developing an "approach" (I couldn't call it a "style"), with more variety of submissions. I do need to practice escapes from some positions/evade traps.
Ps. There were more "How old are you?" and "My Dad is younger than you, but couldn't do this" comments.
Pps. Technique >> strength, but the range of apparent strength between different people is always surprising. It may be more of a case of how efficiently people can move and apply their weight, but I suspect that core/trunk strength is key.
The Technique beats strength argument is true to a point. Once a seasoned guy can apply strength with the technique, it becomes a whole new ball game. As a result of years of consistent lifting I consider myself to have a pretty good base level of strength (at my peak I was regularly hitting a 240kg Deadlift, 130kg bench press and 180kg Squat) however, I am often surprised by how weak some guys feeling, despite looking physically big and strong. On the other hand, I know of a scaffolder who doesnt look big, but he is one of the strongest grapplers I know. I was probably a bit scrappy. I need to do some better throws.
Moving on to some groundwork & attacking the turtle position (fewer options without a gi).
Followed by a bit of rolling starting from various positions, some of which I'm not that familiar with.
In rolling, I'm noticing that I have more "time" than I did when I started a few weeks ago, and developing an "approach" (I couldn't call it a "style"
), with more variety of submissions. I do need to practice escapes from some positions/evade traps. Ps. There were more "How old are you?" and "My Dad is younger than you, but couldn't do this" comments.
Pps. Technique >> strength, but the range of apparent strength between different people is always surprising. It may be more of a case of how efficiently people can move and apply their weight, but I suspect that core/trunk strength is key.
Power is nothing without control.
biggbn said:
Agreed, my only non gi submission grappling contest which was ten years or so ago, I hadn't been on a mat competitively for about 22 years and hadn't had any significant mat time for about 10. I was however 140kg, deadlifted 292.5kg, benched 225kg and squatted over 300kg, all totally raw except the squat for which I wrapped my knees. I had trained with heavy weights all my adukt life. My tactics after being talked into this inter club contest was rely on my Judo for take downs; bouts started standing, and use my groundwork experience of how to use my weight and power to control the groundwork. There were only 6 over 100kg opponents and my size and strength made it unfair..I am under no illusions that had I had the size and strength and not been a Dan grade judoka it would have counted for nothing but man, it felt easy. And my first round guy had won the tournament the previous years and went on to fight pro, and was undoubtely a more gifted grapper than i was on form, but by his own admission afterwards could do nothing about the strength-said it felt suffocating to be controlled like that! The guy I fought in the final went on to fight on Sky and still coaches Judo to this day.
Power is nothing without control.
Well I'm nowhere near that size or strength. I probably wouldn't voluntarily get into a wrestling match with you. Power is nothing without control.
MC Bodge said:
biggbn said:
Agreed, my only non gi submission grappling contest which was ten years or so ago, I hadn't been on a mat competitively for about 22 years and hadn't had any significant mat time for about 10. I was however 140kg, deadlifted 292.5kg, benched 225kg and squatted over 300kg, all totally raw except the squat for which I wrapped my knees. I had trained with heavy weights all my adukt life. My tactics after being talked into this inter club contest was rely on my Judo for take downs; bouts started standing, and use my groundwork experience of how to use my weight and power to control the groundwork. There were only 6 over 100kg opponents and my size and strength made it unfair..I am under no illusions that had I had the size and strength and not been a Dan grade judoka it would have counted for nothing but man, it felt easy. And my first round guy had won the tournament the previous years and went on to fight pro, and was undoubtely a more gifted grapper than i was on form, but by his own admission afterwards could do nothing about the strength-said it felt suffocating to be controlled like that! The guy I fought in the final went on to fight on Sky and still coaches Judo to this day.
Power is nothing without control.
Well I'm nowhere near that size or strength. I probably wouldn't voluntarily get into a wrestling match with you. Power is nothing without control.
biggbn said:
Why did you let go of him? I would always try to hold at least an arm for an arm bar or triangle or follow him right down into a pin. Good sweep, I'm being hyper critical for someone who hasn't been on a mat for ten years or more!!
I felt bad for him 
he was majorly hung over and suffering already, usually of course I would be straight in there. Sometimes I just fancy standing for a while also, so I will encourage them to get back up. I'm very much at a playful stage, training now for 7 years or so, I have nothing to prove so can just enjoy it and have fun i.e. not smash at every chance
Pete102 said:
biggbn said:
Why did you let go of him? I would always try to hold at least an arm for an arm bar or triangle or follow him right down into a pin. Good sweep, I'm being hyper critical for someone who hasn't been on a mat for ten years or more!!
I felt bad for him he was majorly hung over and suffering already, usually of course I would be straight in there. Sometimes I just fancy standing for a while also, so I will encourage them to get back up. I'm very much at a playful stage, training now for 7 years or so, I have nothing to prove so can just enjoy it and have fun i.e. not smash at every chance
beambeam1 said:
Shame, there isn't enough big boys to train with up here... (I see you're based in Tayside). Currently sitting at 150kg and some change but sadly, never been anywhere near as strong as that, just have good bloody judo!
Brother, I'd be tied up in knots by anyone remotely competent and fit nowadays, only trained gym sporadically for years now and not been on a mat since aforementioned competition so ten years anyway. Would be like wrestling a large and unenthusiastic sack of potatoes! Since having my first kid not been able to train, ballooned in weight as well, going to sign up to a comp in 2023 and cut down to weight again.
My club is having its annual grading on Tuesday, last years grading was postponed due to head coach having Covid, I was due to get my blue belt, so its a year since I was "due" to get it, been blue belt for nearly 9 months now and think I've been to about 10 sessions if I'm lucky.
One of the white belts is competing tomorrow, sent him a good luck message today and he responded saying hes really missing training with me, so thats spurned me on.
My club is having its annual grading on Tuesday, last years grading was postponed due to head coach having Covid, I was due to get my blue belt, so its a year since I was "due" to get it, been blue belt for nearly 9 months now and think I've been to about 10 sessions if I'm lucky.
One of the white belts is competing tomorrow, sent him a good luck message today and he responded saying hes really missing training with me, so thats spurned me on.
biggbn said:
beambeam1 said:
Shame, there isn't enough big boys to train with up here... (I see you're based in Tayside). Currently sitting at 150kg and some change but sadly, never been anywhere near as strong as that, just have good bloody judo!
Brother, I'd be tied up in knots by anyone remotely competent and fit nowadays, only trained gym sporadically for years now and not been on a mat since aforementioned competition so ten years anyway. Would be like wrestling a large and unenthusiastic sack of potatoes! My own bit of fancy footwork from earlier in the year at an international: https://imgur.com/tuWZhXQ
the-norseman said:
One of the white belts is competing tomorrow, sent him a good luck message today and he responded saying hes really missing training with me, so thats spurned me on.
That's quality, there are few things sweeter to hear than knowing others appreciate you as an uke. Edited by beambeam1 on Sunday 18th December 23:15
Edited by beambeam1 on Sunday 18th December 23:15
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