Wiggins - could this be a Similar issue as Lance A ?

[johnxjsc1985]

I get the doubters and those who feel somewhat let down but I don't really understand the vitriol towards Bradley Wiggins who has done nothing wrong whether technically or otherwise . Some say they have followed Cycling for decades then what about Indurain 5 times winner and serial Salbutanol user never hear him being accused of cheating or bending the rules and some of his time trial victories in the TDF were out of this world.
After Armstrong I sort of give up on trying to second guess who was doing what and who wasn't so until proven otherwise I'll leave the lynching to the mob.

[Dr Imran T]

johnxjsc1985 said:

I get the doubters and those who feel somewhat let down but I don't really understand the vitriol towards Bradley Wiggins who has done nothing wrong whether technically or otherwise . Some say they have followed Cycling for decades then what about Indurain 5 times winner and serial Salbutanol user never hear him being accused of cheating or bending the rules and some of his time trial victories in the TDF were out of this world.
After Armstrong I sort of give up on trying to second guess who was doing what and who wasn't so until proven otherwise I'll leave the lynching to the mob.

As has been said earlier in this thread it's the 'holier than thou' nonsense that is constantly spouted out. It's very annoying. Remember that idiot Alexandre Vinokourov? I think a lot of cycling fans didn't like is un-remorseful stance and and general arrogance. However, you knew exactly what you were getting with him. Also, feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I can't remember him pretending to be anything otherwise.

[johnxjsc1985]

Dr Imran T said:

As has been said earlier in this thread it's the 'holier than thou' nonsense that is constantly spouted out. It's very annoying. Remember that idiot Alexandre Vinokourov? I think a lot of cycling fans didn't like is un-remorseful stance and and general arrogance. However, you knew exactly what you were getting with him. Also, feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I can't remember him pretending to be anything otherwise.

what about 5 times TDF Indurain ? no mention of him from anyone . I still think having a Doctors prescription is a lot different from those rides using methods designed to hide riders gaining a big advantage.
Some posters seem to think a quick puff on an inhaler will have them chasing up the mountains. I get the idea of an inhaler bringing a rider back to the level they are used to being at and if what people are really saying is Sky are being a bit hypocritical or even a lot then I would agree with that but to suggest Wiggins is the rider he is today because of chemical assistance is just nonsense.

[mcelliott]

I don't think anyone thinks big mig rode clean for his tour wins, no the reason he gets a free pass is that he's seen as one of the sports nice guys as apposed to mouthy .

[Granfondo]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Dr Imran T said:

As has been said earlier in this thread it's the 'holier than thou' nonsense that is constantly spouted out. It's very annoying. Remember that idiot Alexandre Vinokourov? I think a lot of cycling fans didn't like is un-remorseful stance and and general arrogance. However, you knew exactly what you were getting with him. Also, feel free to correct me if I am wrong but I can't remember him pretending to be anything otherwise.

what about 5 times TDF Indurain ? no mention of him from anyone . I still think having a Doctors prescription is a lot different from those rides using methods designed to hide riders gaining a big advantage.
Some posters seem to think a quick puff on an inhaler will have them chasing up the mountains. I get the idea of an inhaler bringing a rider back to the level they are used to being at and if what people are really saying is Sky are being a bit hypocritical or even a lot then I would agree with that but to suggest Wiggins is the rider he is today because of chemical assistance is just nonsense.

Why do you keep mentioning inhalers?
What Wiggo was taking was a catabolic steroid via injections!

[johnxjsc1985]

Granfondo said:

Why do you keep mentioning inhalers?
What Wiggo was taking was a catabolic steroid via injections!

because people keep on referring to them as a magic bullet making also-rans into champions. What needs to be done is for this to be a wake up call for Wada and all the teams but when a Doctor prescribes medication to an individual shouldn't that be private?.
I don't know how cycling can ever move away from the association with Drugs it been part of the fabric of the sport longer than I have been around and I can remember the demise of Tom Simpson a man who is still revered today. Maybe its time to allow drugs and if they want to kill themselves let them. Even when I was racing ten years ago Creatine was the big thing to give you a legal advantage and even Bicarbonate of soda as a lactate buffer. The latter however resulted in two things stomach cramp or something far worse.

[jesusbuiltmycar]

johnxjsc1985 said:

I get the doubters and those who feel somewhat let down but I don't really understand the vitriol towards Bradley Wiggins who has done nothing wrong whether technically or otherwise . Some say they have followed Cycling for decades then what about Indurain 5 times winner and serial Salbutanol user never hear him being accused of cheating or bending the rules and some of his time trial victories in the TDF were out of this world.
After Armstrong I sort of give up on trying to second guess who was doing what and who wasn't so until proven otherwise I'll leave the lynching to the mob.

Indurain has never tested positive although there is a lot of suspicion surrounding him. I always find it amazing the way European dopers are treated compared to other riders:

Jonathan Tiernan-Locke - career over due to blood passport anomaly
Lance - banned for life, stripped of all results, could loose everything in an up-coming court case
Pantani - National cycling hero, honoured by the 2014 Giro d'Italia
Vino - National cycling hero, running the Astana team
Contador - National hero and fan favourite despite a special steak
Schelk - successfully sued the team that fired him for doping for €2million

As for Bradleyhe didn't break any rules and it was all by the book but - his statements in "My Time" don't do him any favours and having the same catabloic steroid administered before 3 grand tours has definitely tainted his TDF win.

Edited by jesusbuiltmycar on Thursday 29th September 20:36

[Granfondo]

Calls for Sky and Wiggins to be investigated!

2) The Rider would experience a significant impairment to health if the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method were to be withheld in the course of treating an acute or chronic medical condition.

3) The therapeutic use of the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method would produce no additional enhancement of performance other than that which might be anticipated by a return to a state of normal health following the treatment of a legitimate medical condition.

4) There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the otherwise Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method.

What this boils down to is simple: if injections were not necessary, if any breathing difficulties could have been eliminated by milder treatments, then Wiggins and the team may have broken the rules.

[jesusbuiltmycar]

Granfondo said:

Calls for Sky and Wiggins to be investigated!

2) The Rider would experience a significant impairment to health if the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method were to be withheld in the course of treating an acute or chronic medical condition.

3) The therapeutic use of the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method would produce no additional enhancement of performance other than that which might be anticipated by a return to a state of normal health following the treatment of a legitimate medical condition.

4) There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the otherwise Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method.

What this boils down to is simple: if injections were not necessary, if any breathing difficulties could have been eliminated by milder treatments, then Wiggins and the team may have broken the rules.

So are you saying that Froome should be given a 4th tour win?

[Granfondo]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

Granfondo said:

Calls for Sky and Wiggins to be investigated!

2) The Rider would experience a significant impairment to health if the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method were to be withheld in the course of treating an acute or chronic medical condition.

3) The therapeutic use of the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method would produce no additional enhancement of performance other than that which might be anticipated by a return to a state of normal health following the treatment of a legitimate medical condition.

4) There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the otherwise Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method.

What this boils down to is simple: if injections were not necessary, if any breathing difficulties could have been eliminated by milder treatments, then Wiggins and the team may have broken the rules.

So are you saying that Froome should be given a 4th tour win?

That will be up to the UCI if an investigation takes place and there is any wrongdoing found.

[johnxjsc1985]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

Indurain has never tested positive although there is a lot of suspicion surrounding him. I always find it amazing the way European dopers are treated compared to other riders:

Jonathan Tiernan-Locke - career over due to blood passport anomaly
Lance - banned for life, stripped of all results, could loose everything in an up-coming court case
Pantani - National cycling hero, honoured by the 2014 Giro d'Italia
Vino - National cycling hero, running the Astana team
Contador - National hero and fan favourite despite a special steak
Schelk - successfully sued the team that fired him for doping for €2million

As for Bradleyhe didn't break any rules and it was all by the book but - his statements in "My Time" don't do him any favours and having the same catabloic steroid administered before 3 grand tours has definitely tainted his TDF win.

Edited by jesusbuiltmycar on Thursday 29th September 20:36

Indurain also had Asthma.
I remember Tony Romminger who I believed had real problems with hayfever I don't recall him ever using an inhaler .
ha ha just checked and he has an nickname of EPOTony enough said depressing isn't it,

Edited by johnxjsc1985 on Thursday 29th September 22:35

[anonymous-user]

Sky/Wiggins sailed a bit close to the wind. Especially when you consider the numerous whiter than white interviews, critiising the honest cheats!
Its not surprising that Joe Public are a bit miffed at watching TDF & other feats, when it seems like groundhog day, Armsrong again but with a sick note, so its all legal, honest..

[anonymous-user]

TwistingMyMelon said:

This is just just miss informed small minded views of asthma, its not such a black and white stereotypical condition, regardless if Wiggins was taking the piss.

During winter, I can lie there at night wheezing and finding it hard to breathe in bed, which my inhalers will help relieve yet the next day I cycle up the steepest hill in the area flat out with no ill affects as asthma affects people in different ways at different times .

The struggling to get up the stairs analogy is more appropriate to conditions like COPD than Asthma

I'm the opposite-unless I have another illness asthma does not affect me in normal life.

However during a run or training session-especially if the temperature is towards zero my airways can close up to the point where it literally feels like someone is choking me.

All asthmatics struggling to get up the stairs is a rubbish analogy.

[Matt_N]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

Indurain has never tested positive although there is a lot of suspicion surrounding him. I always find it amazing the way European dopers are treated compared to other riders:

Jonathan Tiernan-Locke - career over due to blood passport anomaly
Lance - banned for life, stripped of all results, could loose everything in an up-coming court case
Pantani - National cycling hero, honoured by the 2014 Giro d'Italia
Vino - National cycling hero, running the Astana team
Contador - National hero and fan favourite despite a special steak
Schelk - successfully sued the team that fired him for doping for €2million

As for Bradleyhe didn't break any rules and it was all by the book but - his statements in "My Time" don't do him any favours and having the same catabloic steroid administered before 3 grand tours has definitely tainted his TDF win.

Edited by jesusbuiltmycar on Thursday 29th September 20:36

Another that always sticks in my mind and rests uneasy is Valverde.

[johnxjsc1985]

cookie118 said:

I'm the opposite-unless I have another illness asthma does not affect me in normal life.

However during a run or training session-especially if the temperature is towards zero my airways can close up to the point where it literally feels like someone is choking me.

All asthmatics struggling to get up the stairs is a rubbish analogy.

the winter was the worst time for me also as soon as damp cold air hit my lungs boom it was like trying to breathe through a straw and I tried to get around it by having a scarf over my mouth but that just got wet and uncomfortable.

[MarshPhantom]

y

johnxjsc1985 said:

cookie118 said:

I'm the opposite-unless I have another illness asthma does not affect me in normal life.

However during a run or training session-especially if the temperature is towards zero my airways can close up to the point where it literally feels like someone is choking me.

All asthmatics struggling to get up the stairs is a rubbish analogy.

the winter was the worst time for me also as soon as damp cold air hit my lungs boom it was like trying to breathe through a straw and I tried to get around it by having a scarf over my mouth but that just got wet and uncomfortable.

So why has Wiggins never mentioned the asthma before now? He did release a book recently, you'd think he might have written about his triumph over adversity, wanting other sufferers to know what can be achieved etc...

[Dr Imran T]

cookie118 said:

I'm the opposite-unless I have another illness asthma does not affect me in normal life.

However during a run or training session-especially if the temperature is towards zero my airways can close up to the point where it literally feels like someone is choking me.

All asthmatics struggling to get up the stairs is a rubbish analogy.

Of course it's not ALL asthmatics that would struggle to get up a flight of stairs. There are differing levels of severity as to how bad each patient suffers - as well as many other factors.

The point of the stairs is to stress some form of physical exertion, it need not be a 'flight of stairs' but it could be another form of physical exertion where it could leave those with severe asthma in trouble.

[Dr Imran T]

MarshPhantom said:

So why has Wiggins never mentioned the asthma before now? He did release a book recently, you'd think he might have written about his triumph over adversity, wanting other sufferers to know what can be achieved etc...

Indeed:

I read this article on cycling weekly - I've copied it below. Note the paragraph on Calum Skinner..

There remains a lingering unease about the situation, not only amongst those who follow cycling but also mainstream journalists who covered the story and the public who follow it. When Team Sky was founded it promised to be whiter than white; at the very least, the injection of a powerful corticosteroid days before Wiggins’ 2012 Tour de France victory was dancing in the grey area.

The unease about the data exposed by Russian hackers is heightened by Wiggins’ insistence in his 2012 autobiography My Time that he had never received any injections, other than vaccinations and occasional drips. His attempt to explain away this inconsistency on Saturday appeared clumsy, while Brailsford’s claim not to know corticosteroids were performance-enhancing was similarly unconvincing.

Now calls have been made for WADA to look into the matter, with a cycling whistleblower and a federation doctor asking the anti-doping agency to examine the circumstances of those injections.

Former professional rider and admitted past doper Joerg Jaksche is one who has spoken about the use of the corticosteroid Triamcinolone acetonide, the substance given to Wiggins. He said earlier this month that it has potent performance enhancing effects and that riders in his era would deliberately exaggerate claims of illness or injury to get a TUE for it.

Speaking to CyclingTips this week, the German said that it was important to discern if Wiggins’ use of the corticosteroid was proportional and also correctly sanctioned.

“To be honest, I think WADA should investigate,” he said. “WADA should follow up this information. It should ask if there is a chance that somebody applied for this TUE for cortisone without having this disease, or without really needing to take this injection? That is the main thing for me.”

One worrying aspect of Wiggins’ explanation is that he finished fourth overall in the 2009 Tour de France while using only inhalers for his asthma. These are a milder form of treatment which don’t have the same performance boosting and weight reducing effects as injections.

The question exists: why were inhalers good enough in 2009, but not in 2011, 2012 and 2013?

In talking about the decision to seek a TUE for Triamcinolone acetonide, Wiggins said on Saturday that his breathing had been off in the build-up to those Grand Tours.

As several have pointed out, there is once again a contradiction contained within the pages of My Time.

“I’d done all the work, I was fine-tuned,” he stated there about the period before the 2012 Tour. “I was ready to go. My body was in good shape. I’m in the form of my life. I was only ill once or twice with minor colds, and I barely lost a day’s training from it.”

Indeed he won the Critérium du Dauphiné in both 2011 and 2012, finishing over a minute clear of his nearest rivals on both occasions. Reconciling this with his claims of breathing problems is difficult.

Jaksche said that proof should be provided at this point.

“We have to trust doctors that they don’t come up with a fake illness,” he said. “I had allergies and I went to a specialist and they would do [skin]prick tests and breathing tests. I am wondering where all this documentation is. There must be documentation.

“If you look at Calum Skinner’s case [note: Skinner is a Olympic gold-medal winning track sprinter who also had TUE files leaked], he has delivered all the information that he had dating back to when he was about five years of age. It is all justified and all good.

“Right now, Bradley Wiggins’ case looks more like, ‘ah, you have allergies, take cortisone and it can also help you for riding.’ It is a very weird situation. Without the documentation, I don’t trust them.

[Talksteer]

Jimboka said:

Sky/Wiggins sailed a bit close to the wind. Especially when you consider the numerous whiter than white interviews, critiising the honest cheats!
Its not surprising that Joe Public are a bit miffed at watching TDF & other feats, when it seems like groundhog day, Armsrong again but with a sick note, so its all legal, honest..

It's entirely a false equivalency which is pretty much the strategy of all Russian propaganda.

Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.

We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.

On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.

On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.

I think the solution is as follows:

Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.

To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.

[MarshPhantom]

Talksteer said:

Russian propaganda.