Wiggins - could this be a Similar issue as Lance A ?
Discussion
ArnageWRC said:
I want sport to be clean.
But I have to say, in my opinion, all this 'hacked data' is completely untrustworthy. It's basically 'jackanory'...I view it as 'inadmissible evidence'. I don't trust any of it. I'm actually fed up of hearing/ reading new revelations....it's all rubbish.
Sour grapes from the Russians...who may or may not have a point, but have gone about it the wrong way....
even if there is anything in this it would be a few individuals against an entire State doping its Athletes and we aren't even discussing that anymoreBut I have to say, in my opinion, all this 'hacked data' is completely untrustworthy. It's basically 'jackanory'...I view it as 'inadmissible evidence'. I don't trust any of it. I'm actually fed up of hearing/ reading new revelations....it's all rubbish.
Sour grapes from the Russians...who may or may not have a point, but have gone about it the wrong way....
ArnageWRC said:
I want sport to be clean.
But I have to say, in my opinion, all this 'hacked data' is completely untrustworthy. It's basically 'jackanory'...I view it as 'inadmissible evidence'. I don't trust any of it. I'm actually fed up of hearing/ reading new revelations....it's all rubbish.
Sour grapes from the Russians...who may or may not have a point, but have gone about it the wrong way....
If it was 'jackanory', those exposed would be denying it. They haven' to my knowledge. It looks like they have been rumbled..But I have to say, in my opinion, all this 'hacked data' is completely untrustworthy. It's basically 'jackanory'...I view it as 'inadmissible evidence'. I don't trust any of it. I'm actually fed up of hearing/ reading new revelations....it's all rubbish.
Sour grapes from the Russians...who may or may not have a point, but have gone about it the wrong way....
BlackLabel said:
Newsnight weren't holding back tonight - they essentially called him a drug cheat.
It was the first piece on at 10.30pm if anyone wants to watch it on iplayer.
Yeah they did a pretty poor bit of journalism by not interviewing any research scientist in respiratory medicine.It was the first piece on at 10.30pm if anyone wants to watch it on iplayer.
The general consensus is that on its own the drug he took is a performance inhibiting drug, it cuts weight but unless you offset it with testosterone and EPO it also cuts muscle.
The doctors interviewed by the telegraph said that commentators like David Millar would have a distorted view of its properties.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-...
Unless the TUE is credible evidence of full illegal drug taking the performance boost argument is offset by all the victories which were achieved without TUE.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/bradley...
Will be interesting to see Wiggins side of the story on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday
Will be interesting to see Wiggins side of the story on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday
Why are these TUEs secret anyway?
The whole issue of drugs and/or medicine in sport is at this point so soiled with hysteria and hyperbole that I'd say it's impossible for laymen like me to have any confidence in the fundamental mindset of those competing.
It's about time they just let them take whatever they want and face the consequences.
But to answer the question in the op, I don't see a great deal of difference between Team Skys actions and Armstrongs, they've both just pushed the boundary and spirit of sport as fas as they could or were allowed.
The whole issue of drugs and/or medicine in sport is at this point so soiled with hysteria and hyperbole that I'd say it's impossible for laymen like me to have any confidence in the fundamental mindset of those competing.
It's about time they just let them take whatever they want and face the consequences.
But to answer the question in the op, I don't see a great deal of difference between Team Skys actions and Armstrongs, they've both just pushed the boundary and spirit of sport as fas as they could or were allowed.
A bit of a non event really? Hardly, when you've got the self-appointed spokesman for clean cycling with very clear view of syringe use in the peleton, found to be taking a performance enhancing drug via an inter-muscular injection, to claim his most prestigious win. Not forgetting the lies about his own syringe use in the first place.
FredClogs said:
Why are these TUEs secret anyway?
.....
But to answer the question in the op, I don't see a great deal of difference between Team Skys actions and Armstrongs, they've both just pushed the boundary and spirit of sport as fas as they could or were allowed.
They're secret because they're essentially medical records......
But to answer the question in the op, I don't see a great deal of difference between Team Skys actions and Armstrongs, they've both just pushed the boundary and spirit of sport as fas as they could or were allowed.
I mean I don't think many athletes would have an issue if they were taking medicine for a cold to put it up, but would they want treatment for fertility or sexual health issues to be public knowledge? I'd imagine not!
Even if team sky are exploiting tue's for their benefit, there is still a massive difference between them and Armstrong, because tue's are within the letter of the rules-whereas epo is not.
If cheating was involved it would fall at the feet of the UCI, British Cycling and WADA for ultimately approving the TUE's. Wiggins will obviously know the truth and has gone along with the meds and he can decide if he knowingly raced with an unfair advantage or not.
But his Doctor and Team made the decision to apply for the TUE. They are responsible, not Wiggins. In turn, their request was legally approved by the higher authorities.
So if anything is exposed here as possible cheating, then nothing as I see it can be done to overturn any of Wiggins achievements, only a rethink in how meds are approved and the processes involved going forward.
I despise cheats though and always happy to see any exposed. I raced road as a Junior and Senior in a top amateur tier and was always beaten by the same few riders. I learnt years later that 3 of them were on steroids.
But his Doctor and Team made the decision to apply for the TUE. They are responsible, not Wiggins. In turn, their request was legally approved by the higher authorities.
So if anything is exposed here as possible cheating, then nothing as I see it can be done to overturn any of Wiggins achievements, only a rethink in how meds are approved and the processes involved going forward.
I despise cheats though and always happy to see any exposed. I raced road as a Junior and Senior in a top amateur tier and was always beaten by the same few riders. I learnt years later that 3 of them were on steroids.
cookie118 said:
They're secret because they're essentially medical records.
I mean I don't think many athletes would have an issue if they were taking medicine for a cold to put it up, but would they want treatment for fertility or sexual health issues to be public knowledge? I'd imagine not!
Even if team sky are exploiting tue's for their benefit, there is still a massive difference between them and Armstrong, because tue's are within the letter of the rules-whereas epo is not.
LOL,I mean I don't think many athletes would have an issue if they were taking medicine for a cold to put it up, but would they want treatment for fertility or sexual health issues to be public knowledge? I'd imagine not!
Even if team sky are exploiting tue's for their benefit, there is still a massive difference between them and Armstrong, because tue's are within the letter of the rules-whereas epo is not.
TUE are only allowed when theirs a clear medical reason for them. Not when theirs a performance enhancing reason, obviously.
If the latter is true, which in Wiggins case seems likely, then theirs no difference between him and all the other riders incl. Armstrong that doped.
Part of an interview with Tom Dumoulin (google translate sucks).
"Also about the certificates issue, in which the data include Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins are brought out by hackers, Dumoulin is fierce. Wiggins in particular, those for the Tour de France in 2011 and 2012 (which he won) with the consent of the UCI anti-asthma medication intramuscularly brought in. "It is very strange that every time Wiggins in the same period who took medication. And injecting? So then you have very bad asthma, something they do not even practice with normal asthmatics. Let alone athletes who only have exercise-induced asthma. Apparently Wiggins injections also worked for weeks. Then you should in my opinion weeks of competition. It stinks."
Dumoulin has never considered itself a certificate, because it apparently falls within the rules? "No, that's cheating? I have never applied for a certificate. I once used a puff, but I did not need permission. That might just. This rumble with certificates happens quite often. It is still ingrained in the sport. And I think these are certificates already approved in advance. The system doesn't work. The solution lies in publishing the certificates of athletes, thinks the 25-year-old rider. "Then you have no hassle, everyone knows what you're doing, even if it runs counter to medical confidentiality. But apparently you get all cheating riders if you do not release it. If we are getting closer to a clean sport, I'm for it. "
So apparently the certificate/TUE system doesn't work.
"Also about the certificates issue, in which the data include Chris Froome and Bradley Wiggins are brought out by hackers, Dumoulin is fierce. Wiggins in particular, those for the Tour de France in 2011 and 2012 (which he won) with the consent of the UCI anti-asthma medication intramuscularly brought in. "It is very strange that every time Wiggins in the same period who took medication. And injecting? So then you have very bad asthma, something they do not even practice with normal asthmatics. Let alone athletes who only have exercise-induced asthma. Apparently Wiggins injections also worked for weeks. Then you should in my opinion weeks of competition. It stinks."
Dumoulin has never considered itself a certificate, because it apparently falls within the rules? "No, that's cheating? I have never applied for a certificate. I once used a puff, but I did not need permission. That might just. This rumble with certificates happens quite often. It is still ingrained in the sport. And I think these are certificates already approved in advance. The system doesn't work. The solution lies in publishing the certificates of athletes, thinks the 25-year-old rider. "Then you have no hassle, everyone knows what you're doing, even if it runs counter to medical confidentiality. But apparently you get all cheating riders if you do not release it. If we are getting closer to a clean sport, I'm for it. "
So apparently the certificate/TUE system doesn't work.
So in the last 2 months 2 of our most decorated Cyclists. Wiggins and Armistead have had pretty monumental "issues" with the administration of drugs.
Not angry, just disappointed.
edit to add:
The more I see and hear of Dumoulin , the more I like his viewpoint.
Not angry, just disappointed.
edit to add:
The more I see and hear of Dumoulin , the more I like his viewpoint.
Edited by Rich_W on Saturday 24th September 13:30
mcelliott said:
A bit of a non event really? Hardly, when you've got the self-appointed spokesman for clean cycling with very clear view of syringe use in the peleton, found to be taking a performance enhancing drug via an inter-muscular injection, to claim his most prestigious win. Not forgetting the lies about his own syringe use in the first place.
Anyone that thinks they took these for medical or asthmatic reasons is utterly deluded. By the letter of the law yes they are legal, I'd imagine the reason for those laws is there would be no one at allowed compete if they got stricter. So yes while it's not illegal, but how anyone can claim it isn't cheating quite simply doesn't want to see what is going on.
Brads67 said:
And Steve Cummings and Callum Skinner etc etc etc.
If someone decides to keep there medical records private it hardly proves cheating.
And thats whats been leaked. Peoples medical records listing LEGAL treatments that they have had.
READ the link i posted .If someone decides to keep there medical records private it hardly proves cheating.
And thats whats been leaked. Peoples medical records listing LEGAL treatments that they have had.
Maybe others posting here are either dim or can't read? or blind , anyway TRY reading what drugs were being injected , these drugs are for people about to DIE from asthma , on TOP of that , look at the timing of these drugs . How f
king hard can it be to understand ??Cheating
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