Wiggins - could this be a Similar issue as Lance A ?
Discussion
Talksteer said:
It's entirely a false equivalency which is pretty much the strategy of all Russian propaganda.
Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.
We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.
On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.
On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.
I think the solution is as follows:
Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.
To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.
"AXE TO GRIND"Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.
We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.
On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.
On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.
I think the solution is as follows:
Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.
To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.
Now who is using "propaganda"
"BORDERLINE PRFORMANCE ENHANCING"
The drug in question rips the fat out without power loss so in a pro cyclist before the TDF it's very much a PED!
P.S. Most of the peloton will be doing something "marginal gains" to give them the edge! Imo .
Granfondo said:
"AXE TO GRIND"
Now who is using "propaganda"
"BORDERLINE PRFORMANCE ENHANCING"
The drug in question rips the fat out without power loss so in a pro cyclist before the TDF it's very much a PED!
P.S. Most of the peloton will be doing something "marginal gains" to give them the edge! Imo .
1: Team doctors on rival teams and former dopers are not unbiased commentators. This was my point.Now who is using "propaganda"
"BORDERLINE PRFORMANCE ENHANCING"
The drug in question rips the fat out without power loss so in a pro cyclist before the TDF it's very much a PED!
P.S. Most of the peloton will be doing something "marginal gains" to give them the edge! Imo .
2: The drug has a catabolic effect, this would normally impede athletic ability. The way to take it without loosing power is to use EPO and testosterone which is what the former dopers were doing. There is no evidence Wiggins was doing either of these things.
3: WADA doctors who has access to full medical records and access to medical research on the effects of this drug signed this off. Do you have any evidence that these doctors were either corrupt or unqualified?
Talksteer said:
Jimboka said:
Sky/Wiggins sailed a bit close to the wind. Especially when you consider the numerous whiter than white interviews, critiising the honest cheats!
Its not surprising that Joe Public are a bit miffed at watching TDF & other feats, when it seems like groundhog day, Armsrong again but with a sick note, so its all legal, honest..
It's entirely a false equivalency which is pretty much the strategy of all Russian propaganda. Its not surprising that Joe Public are a bit miffed at watching TDF & other feats, when it seems like groundhog day, Armsrong again but with a sick note, so its all legal, honest..
Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.
We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.
On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.
On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.
I think the solution is as follows:
Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.
To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.
Dr Imran T said:
MarshPhantom said:
So why has Wiggins never mentioned the asthma before now? He did release a book recently, you'd think he might have written about his triumph over adversity, wanting other sufferers to know what can be achieved etc...
Indeed:I read this article on cycling weekly - I've copied it below. Note the paragraph on Calum Skinner..
There remains a lingering unease about the situation, not only amongst those who follow cycling but also mainstream journalists who covered the story and the public who follow it. When Team Sky was founded it promised to be whiter than white; at the very least, the injection of a powerful corticosteroid days before Wiggins’ 2012 Tour de France victory was dancing in the grey area.
The unease about the data exposed by Russian hackers is heightened by Wiggins’ insistence in his 2012 autobiography My Time that he had never received any injections, other than vaccinations and occasional drips. His attempt to explain away this inconsistency on Saturday appeared clumsy, while Brailsford’s claim not to know corticosteroids were performance-enhancing was similarly unconvincing.
Now calls have been made for WADA to look into the matter, with a cycling whistleblower and a federation doctor asking the anti-doping agency to examine the circumstances of those injections.
Former professional rider and admitted past doper Joerg Jaksche is one who has spoken about the use of the corticosteroid Triamcinolone acetonide, the substance given to Wiggins. He said earlier this month that it has potent performance enhancing effects and that riders in his era would deliberately exaggerate claims of illness or injury to get a TUE for it.
Speaking to CyclingTips this week, the German said that it was important to discern if Wiggins’ use of the corticosteroid was proportional and also correctly sanctioned.
“To be honest, I think WADA should investigate,” he said. “WADA should follow up this information. It should ask if there is a chance that somebody applied for this TUE for cortisone without having this disease, or without really needing to take this injection? That is the main thing for me.”
One worrying aspect of Wiggins’ explanation is that he finished fourth overall in the 2009 Tour de France while using only inhalers for his asthma. These are a milder form of treatment which don’t have the same performance boosting and weight reducing effects as injections.
The question exists: why were inhalers good enough in 2009, but not in 2011, 2012 and 2013?
In talking about the decision to seek a TUE for Triamcinolone acetonide, Wiggins said on Saturday that his breathing had been off in the build-up to those Grand Tours.
As several have pointed out, there is once again a contradiction contained within the pages of My Time.
“I’d done all the work, I was fine-tuned,” he stated there about the period before the 2012 Tour. “I was ready to go. My body was in good shape. I’m in the form of my life. I was only ill once or twice with minor colds, and I barely lost a day’s training from it.”
Indeed he won the Critérium du Dauphiné in both 2011 and 2012, finishing over a minute clear of his nearest rivals on both occasions. Reconciling this with his claims of breathing problems is difficult.
Jaksche said that proof should be provided at this point.
“We have to trust doctors that they don’t come up with a fake illness,” he said. “I had allergies and I went to a specialist and they would do [skin]prick tests and breathing tests. I am wondering where all this documentation is. There must be documentation.
“If you look at Calum Skinner’s case [note: Skinner is a Olympic gold-medal winning track sprinter who also had TUE files leaked], he has delivered all the information that he had dating back to when he was about five years of age. It is all justified and all good.
“Right now, Bradley Wiggins’ case looks more like, ‘ah, you have allergies, take cortisone and it can also help you for riding.’ It is a very weird situation. Without the documentation, I don’t trust them.
Talksteer said:
It's entirely a false equivalency which is pretty much the strategy of all Russian propaganda.
Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.
We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.
On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.
On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.
I think the solution is as follows:
Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.
To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.
So why doesn't Brad / SKY realise all his medical records and the records surrounding to TUE;s to stop this like Callumm Skinner did? It had no value to competitors as Brad is now at the end of his career.Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.
We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.
On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.
On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.
I think the solution is as follows:
Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.
To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.
For me it seems very easy to kill this story (assuming there is nothing dodgy)
Talksteer said:
1: Team doctors on rival teams and former dopers are not unbiased commentators. This was my point.
2: The drug has a catabolic effect, this would normally impede athletic ability. The way to take it without loosing power is to use EPO and testosterone which is what the former dopers were doing. There is no evidence Wiggins was doing either of these things.
3: WADA doctors who has access to full medical records and access to medical research on the effects of this drug signed this off. Do you have any evidence that these doctors were either corrupt or unqualified?
1) When St David is held up as the Anti Doping ambassador and he says it's the strongest PED he has used then I take notice!2: The drug has a catabolic effect, this would normally impede athletic ability. The way to take it without loosing power is to use EPO and testosterone which is what the former dopers were doing. There is no evidence Wiggins was doing either of these things.
3: WADA doctors who has access to full medical records and access to medical research on the effects of this drug signed this off. Do you have any evidence that these doctors were either corrupt or unqualified?
2) So Wiggo took a drug 1week before the hardest race that would "impede athletic ability" you don't need to be a bovine proctologist to smell bullsh@t!
3) Well it looks like they broke their own rules or were mislead into breaking them!
Edited by Granfondo on Friday 30th September 15:29
Talksteer said:
1: Team doctors on rival teams and former dopers are not unbiased commentators. This was my point.
2: The drug has a catabolic effect, this would normally impede athletic ability. The way to take it without loosing power is to use EPO and testosterone which is what the former dopers were doing. There is no evidence Wiggins was doing either of these things.
3: WADA doctors who has access to full medical records and access to medical research on the effects of this drug signed this off. Do you have any evidence that these doctors were either corrupt or unqualified?
If Wiggins were the only one taking this drug, it would be less suspicious. But the fact is that loads of other cyclists have talked about it (in the past, so not reacting to the Wiggins news story) as both performance enhancing and easy to get via the TUE system. 2: The drug has a catabolic effect, this would normally impede athletic ability. The way to take it without loosing power is to use EPO and testosterone which is what the former dopers were doing. There is no evidence Wiggins was doing either of these things.
3: WADA doctors who has access to full medical records and access to medical research on the effects of this drug signed this off. Do you have any evidence that these doctors were either corrupt or unqualified?
Also, from my own reading, corticosteroids help fight stress and convert food into energy. They break down tissue but this means they are anti-inflammatory, which is what endurance athletes want.
From this: http://bikepure.org/cortisone-use-and-abuse-in-cyc...
"From what we know or suspect it seems to have effects on increasing airflow in the lung by opening the airways, it also has an effect on reducing pain at high intensity exercise. There seems to be an effect on the body’s metabolism below about 75% threshold which although not fully understood may help aid weigh loss while being able to continue training.
In short it possibly makes you a bit euphoric (elated or high) so you can train harder but also at lower intensity train longer while eating less and so lose weight.
At this point in time there is a feeling that while creams and inhaled cortisone probably has little effect on performance other than to treat underlying skin problems (like saddle sores) or asthma the use of tablets and injections has potential to give an unfair benefit (ie doping/cheating)."
Sounds exactly like what other cyclists have reported about its effects - skinny but feeling surprisingly great and being able to train harder.
TwistingMyMelon said:
Talksteer said:
Jimboka said:
Sky/Wiggins sailed a bit close to the wind. Especially when you consider the numerous whiter than white interviews, critiising the honest cheats!
Its not surprising that Joe Public are a bit miffed at watching TDF & other feats, when it seems like groundhog day, Armsrong again but with a sick note, so its all legal, honest..
It's entirely a false equivalency which is pretty much the strategy of all Russian propaganda. Its not surprising that Joe Public are a bit miffed at watching TDF & other feats, when it seems like groundhog day, Armsrong again but with a sick note, so its all legal, honest..
Armstrong was running a sophisticated and definitely illegal doping programme.
We have three occasions where a team up front asked for the use of a drug in an application that is borderline performance enhancing.
On the basis of the full evidence presented a bunch of experts at WADA allowed this.
On the basis of the incomplete evidence a bunch of non experts and experts with a axe to grind have decreed this to be unethical.
I think the solution is as follows:
Complete disclosure of medical records is an infringement of basic rights to privacy, you wouldn't accept it neither should they. Secondly disclosure of records would give an advantage to the opposition not just physically (attack today they are sick) but psychologically as athletes would have their medical records being disused in public.
To me the solution is for TUEs to be disclosed after a time delay and with anonymity. What's more I'd disclose with back up data like w/kg and TSS to demonstrate a lack of performance enhancement.
TwistingMyMelon said:
No we just don't jump to conclusions based on what a load of arm chair internet experts have read on the internet with limited medical training and no understanding of Wiggins's exact condition
The same kind of armchair internet experts who read up on the suspicions on Armstrong and his medical issues and performances and jumped to the logical conclusion that was proven to be true in the end.TwistingMyMelon said:
No we just don't jump to conclusions based on what a load of arm chair internet experts have read on the internet with limited medical training and no understanding of Wiggins's exact condition
In your extensive medical training how many athsmatics /allergies cases that walk into a doctors would be prescribed this treatment when they are in peak physical condition ie someone that that is fit enough to be in contention to lead a team to victory in the TDF?Granfondo said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
No we just don't jump to conclusions based on what a load of arm chair internet experts have read on the internet with limited medical training and no understanding of Wiggins's exact condition
In your extensive medical training how many athsmatics /allergies cases that walk into a doctors would be prescribed this treatment when they are in peak physical condition ie someone that that is fit enough to be in contention to lead a team to victory in the TDF?The only times she's encountered the particular drug was for pain relief injection into joints
Cycling could do without this, after the Armstrong debacle
Purer than pure Team Sky seem to have been pushing the boundaries somewhat. So god only knows what the dodgy teams get up to!
Very sad.
Wiggo's reputation has taken a nosedive. By association the whole Team GB/ Sky has also gone down in Joe Publics opinion.
I guess recent winners should be compared to Johnson in 100m. Very fast...
mcelliott said:
Sky are a dodgy team, they're doing exactly the same as all the other dodgy teams, it's the nature of the sport. At least this blows the ridiculous myth of marginal gains out of the water, and Wiggins is deserving of at least a mental asterisk against his name for his Tour win.
Tiernan-Locke saying Sky Team doctors were handing out Tramadol like confetti. Not a banned drug but.....,,, marginal gains my arse!
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