Autumn Internationals Nov 2016 Rugby

[Welshbeef]

London424 said:

Was a really mature performance from the team and especially when you consider that a few of their best players weren't even playing.

There is so much strength and depth to the squad now in almost every position.

Frankly England have always and should always have that given the player base and it's multiples of any other nation.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

London424 said:

Was a really mature performance from the team and especially when you consider that a few of their best players weren't even playing.

There is so much strength and depth to the squad now in almost every position.

Frankly England have always and should always have that given the player base and it's multiples of any other nation.

That is very true, and it's been a source of frustration for years that being able to put out a consistently winning side has not been the norm.

[Kermit power]

Welshbeef said:

Frankly England have always and should always have that given the player base and it's multiples of any other nation.

I'm not sure that's really the case, is it? Look at the number of adult male registered players (in 2014) and you get this....

Country	Registered Players	Current World Ranking
South Africa	342,316	6
England	340,347	2
France	291,202	8
Australia	230,633	3
New Zealand	148,483	1
USA	110,385	17
Japan	107,673	11
Ireland	96,880	4
Italy	82,143	13
Wales	73,444	5

So yes, England have more registered players than all but South Africa, but that arguably only puts them where they should be in the World rankings. NZ are an obvious over-performer, as are Ireland and Wales, whereas the US, Italy and France in particular perform well below par. What England have far, far more of than anyone else is unregistered players, but that just means there's a big social rugby scene with players who aren't interested in formal competition, so why would that drive any greater strength in depth?

What comparing player numbers to world rankings really underlines is just how poorly Georgia get treated. With just over 7,000 registered adult players, they've got fewer than 10% the numbers to choose from compared to Italy, Japan and the like, yet they're right up with them in the World rankings. Not giving them a shot at the 6 Nations is criminal.

[Vocal Minority]

hornetrider said:

spikeyhead said:

The Mad Monk said:

Greater rugby brains than yours and mine, dear boy, decided that it was a yellow card.

I was half paying attention to the commentary, and I think it was Brian Moore who described it as a yellow card for being stupid.

Whereas Will Greenwood's withering analysis was spot on. "Never, ever a card"

I am on the fence as to whether it was a card - but it was certainly a penalty - it was a cynical shoulder in rather than bracing the body IMHO.

Greenwood kept talking about safety etc and how it wasn't dangerous. Cards are dished out for the nature and cynicism of the offence as well as safety.

[Zod]

Welshbeef said:

I think England are going to get dumped in Cardiff Feb 2017


Bring it on Anglo Saxons we're ready for you I hope.

Those last two words give the game away.

[The Mad Monk]

Kermit power said:

Welshbeef said:

Frankly England have always and should always have that given the player base and it's multiples of any other nation.

I'm not sure that's really the case, is it? Look at the number of adult male registered players (in 2014) and you get this....

Country	Registered Players	Current World Ranking
South Africa	342,316	6
England	340,347	2
France	291,202	8
Australia	230,633	3
New Zealand	148,483	1
USA	110,385	17
Japan	107,673	11
Ireland	96,880	4
Italy	82,143	13
Wales	73,444	5

So yes, England have more registered players than all but South Africa, but that arguably only puts them where they should be in the World rankings. NZ are an obvious over-performer, as are Ireland and Wales, whereas the US, Italy and France in particular perform well below par. What England have far, far more of than anyone else is unregistered players, but that just means there's a big social rugby scene with players who aren't interested in formal competition, so why would that drive any greater strength in depth?

What comparing player numbers to world rankings really underlines is just how poorly Georgia get treated. With just over 7,000 registered adult players, they've got fewer than 10% the numbers to choose from compared to Italy, Japan and the like, yet they're right up with them in the World rankings. Not giving them a shot at the 6 Nations is criminal.

Hmmm.

Those nice people at Wikipedia don't really agree with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_...

What do I know?

[Cheib]

Kermit power said:

I'm not sure that's really the case, is it? Look at the number of adult male registered players (in 2014) and you get this....

Country	Registered Players	Current World Ranking
South Africa	342,316	6
England	340,347	2
France	291,202	8
Australia	230,633	3
New Zealand	148,483	1
USA	110,385	17
Japan	107,673	11
Ireland	96,880	4
Italy	82,143	13
Wales	73,444	5

Scotland don't even make the table !

[The Mad Monk]

Cheib said:

Kermit power said:

I'm not sure that's really the case, is it? Look at the number of adult male registered players (in 2014) and you get this....

Country	Registered Players	Current World Ranking
South Africa	342,316	6
England	340,347	2
France	291,202	8
Australia	230,633	3
New Zealand	148,483	1
USA	110,385	17
Japan	107,673	11
Ireland	96,880	4
Italy	82,143	13
Wales	73,444	5

Scotland don't even make the table !

Well, using this table from Wikipedia:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_...

Scotland are 13th or 15th in the world depending whether one uses the 'Registered players, or 'senior males' table.

[Kermit power]

The Mad Monk said:

Kermit power said:

Welshbeef said:

Frankly England have always and should always have that given the player base and it's multiples of any other nation.

I'm not sure that's really the case, is it? Look at the number of adult male registered players (in 2014) and you get this....

Country	Registered Players	Current World Ranking
South Africa	342,316	6
England	340,347	2
France	291,202	8
Australia	230,633	3
New Zealand	148,483	1
USA	110,385	17
Japan	107,673	11
Ireland	96,880	4
Italy	82,143	13
Wales	73,444	5

So yes, England have more registered players than all but South Africa, but that arguably only puts them where they should be in the World rankings. NZ are an obvious over-performer, as are Ireland and Wales, whereas the US, Italy and France in particular perform well below par. What England have far, far more of than anyone else is unregistered players, but that just means there's a big social rugby scene with players who aren't interested in formal competition, so why would that drive any greater strength in depth?

What comparing player numbers to world rankings really underlines is just how poorly Georgia get treated. With just over 7,000 registered adult players, they've got fewer than 10% the numbers to choose from compared to Italy, Japan and the like, yet they're right up with them in the World rankings. Not giving them a shot at the 6 Nations is criminal.

Hmmm.

Those nice people at Wikipedia don't really agree with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_...

What do I know?

I don't know where Wikipedia got their numbers from, but I got mine from World Rugby's Review of the Year 2014.

[The Mad Monk]

Kermit power said:

I don't know where Wikipedia got their numbers from, but I got mine from World Rugby's Review of the Year 2014.

Interesting. I always understood that you couldn't play rugby (in England?) unless you were registered. Certainly I know clubs that have been penalised for fielding un-registered players.

There is a 2015 version of World Rugby's Review of the Year. I can't download it in a readable form. Is there an easy way of doing that. Same with the RFU's Annual Report. I don't know what the font or format is called, but it's hard to read.

[anonymous-user]

Vocal Minority said:

hornetrider said:

spikeyhead said:

The Mad Monk said:

Greater rugby brains than yours and mine, dear boy, decided that it was a yellow card.

I was half paying attention to the commentary, and I think it was Brian Moore who described it as a yellow card for being stupid.

Whereas Will Greenwood's withering analysis was spot on. "Never, ever a card"

I am on the fence as to whether it was a card - but it was certainly a penalty - it was a cynical shoulder in rather than bracing the body IMHO.

Greenwood kept talking about safety etc and how it wasn't dangerous. Cards are dished out for the nature and cynicism of the offence as well as safety.

I'd have to check the recording, but pretty sure when I watched it live the ref said 'given previous warnings this has to be yellow' or something similar to Stephen Moore before he carded DHP.

Although given the combo of hiding behind the sofa in the first 30mins followed by drinking in the next 30, my memory may not be that accurate.

But the combo of late + shoulder made it a likely to be a card.

[Kermit power]

The Mad Monk said:

Kermit power said:

I don't know where Wikipedia got their numbers from, but I got mine from World Rugby's Review of the Year 2014.

Interesting. I always understood that you couldn't play rugby (in England?) unless you were registered. Certainly I know clubs that have been penalised for fielding un-registered players.

There is a 2015 version of World Rugby's Review of the Year. I can't download it in a readable form. Is there an easy way of doing that. Same with the RFU's Annual Report. I don't know what the font or format is called, but it's hard to read.

I think it's the difference between playing socially and playing in structured RFU competitions.

[epom]

Leicester? Really?

[Kermit power]

epom said:

Leicester? Really?

This exposes the flaw in our thread titles!

With one for the Aviva Premiership and one for the Autumn Internationals, where do European matches go?

Even after a defeat like that, Cockerill couldn't resist having a dig at someone, could he! Claiming that the quality of their recent opposition in the Premiership wasn't up to much doesn't really have much credibility when you look at the scorelines against Northampton and Bristol, does it?

Meanwhile, cracking show from Glasgow!

[epom]

I didn't try to find one
Some great games over the weekend. Glasgow seem to be on the up.

[Derek Smith]

The Mad Monk said:

Interesting. I always understood that you couldn't play rugby (in England?) unless you were registered. Certainly I know clubs that have been penalised for fielding un-registered players.

Tell me, and my old club, about it. Even for 12 minutes, an unregistered prop can cost you a fine and a demotion.

It is a shame that the tables don't include percentages. A shame as it might clarify NZ's position more.

In my present club we get players from the age of four right through to teenagers, and then a lot give up rugby. The percentage is quite high. University plays a part, as do girls. Also, injuries are a significant cause of retirements, not through the injury itself, but the risk to their employment. Also, we lost three of our top class players from one match last season, including our captain, an ex England youth international, due to a player stamping on one twice, kicking another in the head and then kneeing another in the eye, causing a fracture to the eye socket and cheek. None are playing this season although the offender will be.

It was talked about a lot in the clubhouse, as you can appreciate, and mothers, and an increasing number of fathers, see such injuries as a threat to their kids and enthusiasm wanes. Suddenly little Wayne isn't brought along again.

A black eye can keep you out of a club, a recently broken nose even more so and this puts some off. There were any number of times my younger lad has had makeup applied to his face over bruises, with a warning not to go into the Pink Coconut, before he goes out after a match.

Internationals are great recruiting propaganda, Hartley's 'making contact with the eye', biting (or was that teeth making contact with the ear?), elbowing, head-butting, etc, aside (54 weeks and counting), and it is shortsighted of the RFU not to allow the England matches to be free to air. Shortsighted is the mildest of criticisms.

It's been a good year for England. We'll soon have to increase the size of our car parks to get all the youngsters in on a Sunday.

[Slaav]

Derek,
I had the joy of popping back to Ironsides (earlier comments) yesterday for a Vets game, old buys lunch and then the 1s against Farnham. Awesome day....

But the point of my post is that Ironsides have managed to have 1,000 kids play one weekend. Yep, 1,000 were running around in green and white! When I played, I had to sponsor the club a couple of times, buying kit etc. Currently we have a small fortune in the bank and the club is going from strength to strength!

A well run club with a brilliant community spirit is priceless. And a joy to see first hand. Rugby is on the up in my opinion.... England doing well simply helps - doesn't drive it.

Very very sore head today though

[Kermit power]

Slaav said:

Derek,
I had the joy of popping back to Ironsides (earlier comments) yesterday for a Vets game, old buys lunch and then the 1s against Farnham. Awesome day....

But the point of my post is that Ironsides have managed to have 1,000 kids play one weekend. Yep, 1,000 were running around in green and white! When I played, I had to sponsor the club a couple of times, buying kit etc. Currently we have a small fortune in the bank and the club is going from strength to strength!

A well run club with a brilliant community spirit is priceless. And a joy to see first hand. Rugby is on the up in my opinion.... England doing well simply helps - doesn't drive it.

Very very sore head today though

There really is something special about clubs like that (and ours).

I'm usually too involved in coaching on a Sunday morning to really take note of just how many kids there are across all the age groups, so I always get a bit of a lump in my throat looking over the pitches on Remembrance Sunday at all those hundreds and hundreds of kids.

[Slaav]

Kermit power said:

There really is something special about clubs like that (and ours).

I'm usually too involved in coaching on a Sunday morning to really take note of just how many kids there are across all the age groups, so I always get a bit of a lump in my throat looking over the pitches on Remembrance Sunday at all those hundreds and hundreds of kids.

I hadn't seen it with my own eyes but when it was being discussed at the weekend between a 60 year old still playing Vet and a 23 yr old 1s player it struck a chord.

It's a great game! The 'rugby family' is how it was described.....

[768]

Welshbeef said:

How about the WRU start to change the tired Wales team and give the youth opportunity.
Gethin is done time to move on.

These are great future options
Ben John, Dafydd Howells, Sam Davies, Keelan Giles, Sam Parry, Steff Evans, James Davies, Rhys Patchell, Jack Condy, Tomos Williams, Lewis Evans

Don't follow the Welsh clubs much... but this was impressive.

Best stick with Cuthbert I think.