2017 Six Nations
Discussion
Meh, there's was always a high probability of that result given the press hyping up it was a 5 pointer just a case of how many blah blah blah.
Having watched it and thought about it, everyone is singing Italy's praises but they still got beat and conceded a bonus point by bending the laws.
I'm still pretty nervous about England's prospects, can they continue to just do enough or can they actually pull off an 80 minute performance where everything clicks?
Farrell's 50th cap was probably his worst, the majority of the injury stand ins aren't near the quality of the the incumbents and seem to have imbalanced the side IMO. I was hoping Nathan Hughes would be a real alternative to Billy Vunipola but he's proving to be a bit of a penalty magnet, carries too high in contact while not making many yards.
Elliot Daly looks the real deal, he's the form 13 so I'd play him there or if you're going to play him out of position take a look at him at FB. Mike Brown's long term replacement needs to be found, he won't be good enough come the WC in 2019.
Itoje is doing a good job at 6 but there's plenty of quality young 6's I'd have like to have seen get a game. Picking a Lions second row combo is going to be hard-Launchburry is probably the form lock of the 6N.
I can't work out why Care was taken off when he was. History is against Scotland next up but England will have to improve to beat them.
Having watched it and thought about it, everyone is singing Italy's praises but they still got beat and conceded a bonus point by bending the laws.
I'm still pretty nervous about England's prospects, can they continue to just do enough or can they actually pull off an 80 minute performance where everything clicks?
Farrell's 50th cap was probably his worst, the majority of the injury stand ins aren't near the quality of the the incumbents and seem to have imbalanced the side IMO. I was hoping Nathan Hughes would be a real alternative to Billy Vunipola but he's proving to be a bit of a penalty magnet, carries too high in contact while not making many yards.
Elliot Daly looks the real deal, he's the form 13 so I'd play him there or if you're going to play him out of position take a look at him at FB. Mike Brown's long term replacement needs to be found, he won't be good enough come the WC in 2019.
Itoje is doing a good job at 6 but there's plenty of quality young 6's I'd have like to have seen get a game. Picking a Lions second row combo is going to be hard-Launchburry is probably the form lock of the 6N.
I can't work out why Care was taken off when he was. History is against Scotland next up but England will have to improve to beat them.
I thought Care, apart from his quickly taking try, was poor. In the face of unusual tactics, he as the 9 should have been the one to get to grips with it. Identify the nearest England forward at each 'tackle' and simply make him picka nd drive every time the ref says 'tackle only' unless there is a big gap. Also don't try and chip the fullback when you are one on one.
That game needed a thinking 9, and lets be fair thinking is not a strong point for either Care or Youngs but Youngs was much the better of the 2 today.
That game needed a thinking 9, and lets be fair thinking is not a strong point for either Care or Youngs but Youngs was much the better of the 2 today.
a311 said:
Meh, there's was always a high probability of that result given the press hyping up it was a 5 pointer just a case of how many blah blah blah.
Having watched it and thought about it, everyone is singing Italy's praises but they still got beat and conceded a bonus point by bending the laws.
I'm still pretty nervous about England's prospects, can they continue to just do enough or can they actually pull off an 80 minute performance where everything clicks?
Farrell's 50th cap was probably his worst, the majority of the injury stand ins aren't near the quality of the the incumbents and seem to have imbalanced the side IMO. I was hoping Nathan Hughes would be a real alternative to Billy Vunipola but he's proving to be a bit of a penalty magnet, carries too high in contact while not making many yards.
Elliot Daly looks the real deal, he's the form 13 so I'd play him there or if you're going to play him out of position take a look at him at FB. Mike Brown's long term replacement needs to be found, he won't be good enough come the WC in 2019.
Itoje is doing a good job at 6 but there's plenty of quality young 6's I'd have like to have seen get a game. Picking a Lions second row combo is going to be hard-Launchburry is probably the form lock of the 6N.
I can't work out why Care was taken off when he was. History is against Scotland next up but England will have to improve to beat them.
Bending the laws? Not to be confused with not playing in the traditional sense. Having watched it and thought about it, everyone is singing Italy's praises but they still got beat and conceded a bonus point by bending the laws.
I'm still pretty nervous about England's prospects, can they continue to just do enough or can they actually pull off an 80 minute performance where everything clicks?
Farrell's 50th cap was probably his worst, the majority of the injury stand ins aren't near the quality of the the incumbents and seem to have imbalanced the side IMO. I was hoping Nathan Hughes would be a real alternative to Billy Vunipola but he's proving to be a bit of a penalty magnet, carries too high in contact while not making many yards.
Elliot Daly looks the real deal, he's the form 13 so I'd play him there or if you're going to play him out of position take a look at him at FB. Mike Brown's long term replacement needs to be found, he won't be good enough come the WC in 2019.
Itoje is doing a good job at 6 but there's plenty of quality young 6's I'd have like to have seen get a game. Picking a Lions second row combo is going to be hard-Launchburry is probably the form lock of the 6N.
I can't work out why Care was taken off when he was. History is against Scotland next up but England will have to improve to beat them.
Madness60 said:
I thought Care, apart from his quickly taking try, was poor. In the face of unusual tactics, he as the 9 should have been the one to get to grips with it. Identify the nearest England forward at each 'tackle' and simply make him picka nd drive every time the ref says 'tackle only' unless there is a big gap. Also don't try and chip the fullback when you are one on one.
That game needed a thinking 9, and lets be fair thinking is not a strong point for either Care or Youngs but Youngs was much the better of the 2 today.
I'm not convinced that Youngs (this 6N is any better than Care - had he played from the start I think he'd have been just as baffled). Chipping the FB was on balance probably the right option IMOThat game needed a thinking 9, and lets be fair thinking is not a strong point for either Care or Youngs but Youngs was much the better of the 2 today.
irocfan said:
I'm not convinced that Youngs (this 6N is any better than Care - had he played from the start I think he'd have been just as baffled). Chipping the FB was on balance probably the right option IMO
Can't agree that chipping the fullback was the right option, it needs to be absolutely perfect to clear him, and not get a mark but allow Care a chance to regather or just try and beat him and if tackled recycle.epom said:
Bending the laws? Not to be confused with not playing in the traditional sense.
I'm pretty certain World Rugby will issue a law clarification this week on the back of this. Law 15 talks about "loitering" it is illegal to be willfully in front of the ball. If a player behind you kicks ahead you must move towards your own goal line. The Scenario after the tackle is no different. There is no offside line but you cannot willfully move in front of the ball.Some will call it tactically astute, others cynical. No contest at the breakdown is Rugby League. I'd like to see relegation introduced. I also thought the Italian try when their player was down with the physios when they ran round the back would have been looked at.
It was a bit embarrassing that professional players didn't know the law(s) nor did Hartley have the nouns to take a knee and sort things out. England are lacking leaders.
a311 said:
I was hoping Nathan Hughes would be a real alternative to Billy Vunipola but he's proving to be a bit of a penalty magnet, carries too high in contact while not making many yards.
Elliot Daly looks the real deal, he's the form 13 so I'd play him there or if you're going to play him out of position take a look at him at FB. Mike Brown's long term replacement needs to be found, he won't be good enough come the WC in 2019.
Itoje is doing a good job at 6 but there's plenty of quality young 6's I'd have like to have seen get a game. Picking a Lions second row combo is going to be hard-Launchburry is probably the form lock of the 6N.
I can't work out why Care was taken off when he was. History is against Scotland next up but England will have to improve to beat them.
please remember what Billy V was like when he first rocked up, he was the impact player with Ben Morgan the #8 - you have to say he's grown in to the role there is a good chance that NH will do the same. I do agree he seems to carry a little high (though I did enjoy his hand-off on Sergio P) but he seems a different kind of 8 to BV.Elliot Daly looks the real deal, he's the form 13 so I'd play him there or if you're going to play him out of position take a look at him at FB. Mike Brown's long term replacement needs to be found, he won't be good enough come the WC in 2019.
Itoje is doing a good job at 6 but there's plenty of quality young 6's I'd have like to have seen get a game. Picking a Lions second row combo is going to be hard-Launchburry is probably the form lock of the 6N.
I can't work out why Care was taken off when he was. History is against Scotland next up but England will have to improve to beat them.
Like you I'd like to see Daley tried at 15 as well (at least he'd pass the bloody egg!) since we know he can do @ 13.
You mention Itoje @ 6 but I saw Lawes there quite a bit too - he's another player who has benefited from Eddie J
ninja-lewis said:
Too many NH sides consist of brawny players with no rugby intelligence who are spoon fed everything by coaches. They can't deal with the unexpected nor think on their feet. Case in point Wales yesterday and England today. Mental ability is the difference between NH and NZ/Australia.
It's interesting that you raise this point. I've coached or local club from U6 up to U10 now, so about four years. That's four years or practicing skills and fitness during which we (as coaches, there are four of us looking after this group of lads) were always trying to teach them how to play rugby. How to read the strengths and weakness in the opposition team.So many years of 'young Freddy fast legs' running towards the opponents try line by sprinting around the back of his own players and heading across the pitch towards the opposite touch line and then finally getting creamed by six opponent lads jumping on top him. Everyone that has watched mini rugby has seen this.
A few passes over towards the opposite wing would have got us a try every time and it is finally starting to sink in now.
England looked utterly baffled by the Italian play in the first half. I was also a bit disappointed with the French Ref declaring 'I am the Ref not the Coach'. I can't imagine Nigel Owens saying that. I'm pretty sure he (Owens) would have clarified the point immediately, stated exactly what he expected and the game would continue.
Fair play to the English player coming back and saying I'm not asking for tactics, I want to know the rule you are applying.
Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, and I need to clarify my reffing knowledge.
So if there is a tackle, but no ruck, does that mean the ball is still in 'open play'? So players can drive in from the side etc?
Thanks for any info.
Adam B said:
As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
a311 said:
epom said:
Bending the laws? Not to be confused with not playing in the traditional sense.
I'm pretty certain World Rugby will issue a law clarification this week on the back of this. Law 15 talks about "loitering" it is illegal to be willfully in front of the ball. If a player behind you kicks ahead you must move towards your own goal line. The Scenario after the tackle is no different. There is no offside line but you cannot willfully move in front of the ball.Law 11 definitions: "In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball."
Law 11.1c: "Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside.
Law 11.9: "A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action."
As no ruck had formed, there was no offside line. As it was an English player that last played the ball, the Italians could not be offside in general play. And since no Italian was offside they could not be loitering.
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=11
Interestingly, it seems World Rugby did issue a clarification just last week. The lack of offside line remained but the defence are no longer allowed to take out the scrum half as it had been deemed not to be in in the spirit of the game. Hence why Italy didn't tackle Care/Youngs directly.
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/18772409/ho...
Furthermore there was short-lived Experimental Law Variation that created an offside line at the tackle. I say short-lived because it was abandoned pretty quickly as workable. Given other teams have used this tactic (Chiefs, Australia v Ireland, etc) without intervention and attacking teams have the means to exploit it themselves, I wouldn't expect World Rugby to intervene on this occasion (other than to explain why it was lawful perhaps).
TheExcession said:
hanks for posting that.
As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
Don't start refereeing minis with adult rules! As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
It's also a fairly simple tactic to counter as long as you are aware of it.
The "not rugby" complaint and fears for the future of the game are rubbish. Any opportunity to drive forward and make ground from the tackle ought to open up attacking possibilities, not restrict them. Ironically England showed this in the second half.
The "not rugby" complaint and fears for the future of the game are rubbish. Any opportunity to drive forward and make ground from the tackle ought to open up attacking possibilities, not restrict them. Ironically England showed this in the second half.
Leithen said:
It's also a fairly simple tactic to counter as long as you are aware of it.
The "not rugby" complaint and fears for the future of the game are rubbish. Any opportunity to drive forward and make ground from the tackle ought to open up attacking possibilities, not restrict them. Ironically England showed this in the second half.
I think it's more the fact Italy exposed England weakness to adapt. If England wish to become the best rugby side in the world then they should relish this as an opportunity to learn from it. The "not rugby" complaint and fears for the future of the game are rubbish. Any opportunity to drive forward and make ground from the tackle ought to open up attacking possibilities, not restrict them. Ironically England showed this in the second half.
Kermit power said:
TheExcession said:
hanks for posting that.
As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
Don't start refereeing minis with adult rules! As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
You say you've got much to learn. You are not alone going by the reaction of the senior England players.
On a slightly different subject, my daughter and son-in-law brought my latest grandchild to see me, and to scrounge lunch. We had the sound turned down, to the extent that I found it impossible to follow what was said - I'm a bit deaf. It almost ruined the match for me. Yet I generally moan about commentators, although mainly the BBC set-up.
Derek Smith said:
0000 said:
I wonder if Italy should've used / kept that tactic for a weaker side, in hope of gaining a win. Cat's out of the bag now.
Like Wales?Derek Smith said:
They've done what they wanted to do. They worried England. They stood a chance at stopping the sequence of wins. I think if I was O'Shea I'd have picked the same opponents.
Fair enough.Kermit power said:
TheExcession said:
hanks for posting that.
As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
Don't start refereeing minis with adult rules! As a mini ref it looks like I've been doing it all wrong. In my mind the off side line is where the ball is. It's rugby, if you are in front of the ball, then you need to get behind the last player that touched the ball to be on side again.
I've got so much to learn.
What I really find myself doing these days is trying to copy the likes of Nigel Owens, with his constant commentary of the match play.
Just explaining what he sees in the game and how he expects players to play the game of rugby.
I thought the French Ref today was poor in his attitude regarding the questions that the England players asked. That line from him 'I'm a ref not a coach' was very disappointing. England were only asking for clarification of how he was going to ref the match.
I've been pulled on points in mini refffing like that, and the best I could do to for the lads playing was to explain what I wanted to see in terms of a game of rugby.
The worst part is when you get a whole heap of your own team's supporters screaming at you because you made a wrong call.
Derek Smith said:
On a slightly different subject, my daughter and son-in-law brought my latest grandchild to see me, and to scrounge lunch.
Yeah, it is a slightly different subject.I took Little Ex up for a 'free dinner' up at his grandparents, now in fairness I mucked out the horse. Little Ex brought (not bought-fecking retards) in a few buckets of coal, then there was a game of chess where I heard Grandpa Ex complaining he made a stupid mistake in his opening and that was the only reason Little Ex won.
Little Ex romped him.
But what is fascinating is that I'm 48, Little Ex is 10, Grandpa Ex is 82. But we love watching a game of rugby, and we'll play a game of chess, and then eat the food of
Edited by TheExcession on Sunday 26th February 23:40
TheExcession said:
I thought the French Ref today was poor in his attitude regarding the questions that the England players asked. That line from him 'I'm a ref not a coach' was very disappointing. England were only asking for clarification of how he was going to ref the match.
In fairness, there were two occasions when Haskell was asking about it (one near the touch line and the other with Hartley mid-field) and I think one one of them the questions asked was "how can we get them to form a ruck" which could sound like a request for tactical advice to non-English ears rather than clarification of referee's interpretation.Have any of the current England squad played in France? Could a lack of French speakers place the side at a disadvantage in France/Italy games with continental referees whose English may let them down at times. Also in monitoring what an opposition captain is saying to the referee in French even if the referee is replying in English.
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