The Running Thread

[RizzoTheRat]

Birdster said:

I'm new to running outside and love being outdoors instead of on the treadmill.

I'm looking into trail running around the local forest paths, mix of dry mud, twigs, stones and some water logged mud.
During the summer would the shoe with the red sole be me more suited and then something like the black sole with the deeper tread for winter? I have some Nike Pegasus for road running and fancy trying the trails once a fortnight to mix it up.

I've got ones similar to the red ones, great on wet grass, fine on hard tracks, feel a bit strange on tarmac but you soon get used to it, however once you get on mud they're not really any better than my road shoes. My Mrs has a pair of Solomans with soles like the black ones, way more grip than me on mud but she doesn't like using them on hard surfaces.

[Birdster]

RizzoTheRat said:

Birdster said:

I'm new to running outside and love being outdoors instead of on the treadmill.

I'm looking into trail running around the local forest paths, mix of dry mud, twigs, stones and some water logged mud.
During the summer would the shoe with the red sole be me more suited and then something like the black sole with the deeper tread for winter? I have some Nike Pegasus for road running and fancy trying the trails once a fortnight to mix it up.

I've got ones similar to the red ones, great on wet grass, fine on hard tracks, feel a bit strange on tarmac but you soon get used to it, however once you get on mud they're not really any better than my road shoes. My Mrs has a pair of Solomans with soles like the black ones, way more grip than me on mud but she doesn't like using them on hard surfaces.

markh1973 said:

I use soles along the lines of the red ones all year round on the trails.

I have som shoes for serious mud (more like the black ones) but they aren't much good on anything that isn't mud so don't get worn that often.

Trails are great for building strength and i find that helps with speed on the roads even without putting in significant speedwork.

Thanks. I think I'll try the red ones and if the weather becomes worse I'll move to the black ones. It's for Hainault and Epping Forest. So this time of year it's mostly hard mud with some wet patches that you can run through if not too deep, or around. I didn't think to try my road shoes, but I didn't think that they'd be any good.

[SHutchinson]

Birdster said:

RizzoTheRat said:

Birdster said:

I'm new to running outside and love being outdoors instead of on the treadmill.

I'm looking into trail running around the local forest paths, mix of dry mud, twigs, stones and some water logged mud.
During the summer would the shoe with the red sole be me more suited and then something like the black sole with the deeper tread for winter? I have some Nike Pegasus for road running and fancy trying the trails once a fortnight to mix it up.

I've got ones similar to the red ones, great on wet grass, fine on hard tracks, feel a bit strange on tarmac but you soon get used to it, however once you get on mud they're not really any better than my road shoes. My Mrs has a pair of Solomans with soles like the black ones, way more grip than me on mud but she doesn't like using them on hard surfaces.

markh1973 said:

I use soles along the lines of the red ones all year round on the trails.

I have som shoes for serious mud (more like the black ones) but they aren't much good on anything that isn't mud so don't get worn that often.

Trails are great for building strength and i find that helps with speed on the roads even without putting in significant speedwork.

Thanks. I think I'll try the red ones and if the weather becomes worse I'll move to the black ones. It's for Hainault and Epping Forest. So this time of year it's mostly hard mud with some wet patches that you can run through if not too deep, or around. I didn't think to try my road shoes, but I didn't think that they'd be any good.

The shoes with the red soles look like Adidas Duramo Trail 5's, they're not a bad shoe for £40 from Sports Direct. I've got a pair myself, they're reasonably comfy but the insole folded up and my toes kept sliding forwards off the end which became distracting on runs. They're going to be fine for what you mention, it's pretty much exactly what I use them for.

[Birdster]

SHutchinson said:

Birdster said:

RizzoTheRat said:

Birdster said:

I'm new to running outside and love being outdoors instead of on the treadmill.

I'm looking into trail running around the local forest paths, mix of dry mud, twigs, stones and some water logged mud.
During the summer would the shoe with the red sole be me more suited and then something like the black sole with the deeper tread for winter? I have some Nike Pegasus for road running and fancy trying the trails once a fortnight to mix it up.

I've got ones similar to the red ones, great on wet grass, fine on hard tracks, feel a bit strange on tarmac but you soon get used to it, however once you get on mud they're not really any better than my road shoes. My Mrs has a pair of Solomans with soles like the black ones, way more grip than me on mud but she doesn't like using them on hard surfaces.

markh1973 said:

I use soles along the lines of the red ones all year round on the trails.

I have som shoes for serious mud (more like the black ones) but they aren't much good on anything that isn't mud so don't get worn that often.

Trails are great for building strength and i find that helps with speed on the roads even without putting in significant speedwork.

Thanks. I think I'll try the red ones and if the weather becomes worse I'll move to the black ones. It's for Hainault and Epping Forest. So this time of year it's mostly hard mud with some wet patches that you can run through if not too deep, or around. I didn't think to try my road shoes, but I didn't think that they'd be any good.

The shoes with the red soles look like Adidas Duramo Trail 5's, they're not a bad shoe for £40 from Sports Direct. I've got a pair myself, they're reasonably comfy but the insole folded up and my toes kept sliding forwards off the end which became distracting on runs. They're going to be fine for what you mention, it's pretty much exactly what I use them for.

That's exactly what they are.

Thanks everyone. No I've started longer runs. 5-7K, aiming for 10K I have started to notice the headaches, so I've picked up some electrolyte tablets from Evans Cycles.

[SHutchinson]

While I'm on a roll, are the other shoes Adidas Kanadia Trail 6's?

I wear Kanadia's for most of the adventure runs I do, great shoes.

[Birdster]

Close. They're the 7's.

To be fair I want the Kanadias as well and Runners Need will price match. Although by the time it's muddy enough for them there will be something else out.

The fact you like them is tempting me to get both.

I tried the Nike trails shoes, but didn't feel comfortable in them.

[SHutchinson]

Start Fitness usually have the 5's and 6's on Special offer. You can get them for £30 or £40 in the dull colours.

[Dr Murdoch]

ewenm said:

My thoughts:
Tempo: like the long run, build the distance of this over the weeks. Perhaps starting with 2-3 miles and adding 0.5 mile each time. 3k is quite a long warm up/down, I tend to do 1 mile warm up/down but it's personal choice. I guess more is better if you have the time.
Speed: 3 min recovery is quite long on 400m efforts. Given your 400m at that pace are roughly 1:45 then I wouldn't have more than 2 mins recovery. My rule of thumb is recovery between 50% and 100% of the effort duration. Obviously 2 mins is slightly over 100% effort duration but that's fine for getting used to doing sessions like this. Same comment as above on warm up/down.

Cheers

I'll try a tempo session tonight, speed on thursday and a long run either sat or sun.

[Dr Murdoch]

One more thing

Do any of you use an app so your other half can track you 'live'? I'm thinking of doing a 25k in September, and the finish is 5mins from my house, I thought it would be cool if she could see where I am on the route and then meet me at the finish without needing to hang around for ages not knowing when i'm due in (she will have my two nippers aged 2 & 3, patience isn't their strong point).

[Foliage]

If I got trail running shoes would they be ok for a bit of light hill walking too?

[krallicious]

Tried going for a recovery run this evening. The first 1k was quite painful but the rest was OK. I even managed one 2.2km lap in under 9 minutes but after 5.6k I called it a day as my knee wasn't feeling too fresh. One more short run on Thursday and I'll take the rest of the week off.

[Birdster]

I don't see why you couldn't use them for walking, but if you're looking at rambling and climbing activities maybe not.

I'm finding the road running harder than the treadmill which is to be expected. On the road/park I am around 6.5kmh. On the treadmill this speed feels weird. I use an incline of 2.0 and a speed around 8.5kmh. So an increase of around 2kmh.

Does this sound right to you guys? Or should I try and match my speeds?

[SpydieNut]

Tycho said:

SpydieNut said:

Ok, so a post-Comrades update

It's an absolutely amazing race to be part of, but certainly didn't go to plan from my part. I think the main thing was I hadn't done enough training, with a couple of periods off in the last year getting over injuries. It was brutally hot - about 29-30*C, with high humidity and no clouds. I was drinking 400-600ml every water station (about every 1.5miles) and still got dehydrated. I couldn't take in any more at a time, or I felt sick. I ate whatever they had - oranges, bananas, boiled potatoes with salt, energy bars etc, but ran into trouble at the top of Botha's hill (about 20-25 miles in).

My hip was still niggling and this was worse when heel striking, so I was running more on my forefoot and off my toes, which I wasn't used to. So then my calves tightened up and got tired. My stride became very choppy and inefficient, but I couldn't lengthen it.

The last 3-4 hours was virtually all walking and I was so hot that even walking up those hills made me feel dizzy.

I'd gone into it knowing I wasn't as prepared as last year, but thought I'd be ok. But I was wrong and that race kicked my butt. I was hoping for a 9.5-10 hour, but really fell off after halfway and ended up finishing in 11hrs 20min. Oh well, it was a good lesson and I can't be disappointed as it was just poor training. It was still an amazing event to be part of and the fellow competitors and spectators were wonderful.

Wow, congrats. I'd love to do Comrades at some point. How much of a step up is it from a marathon in terms of training and difficulty?

Thanks - as far as ultras go, the Comrades is quite challenging I think. Any ultra will be hard, but combine that with the the heat of South Africa, the high humidity and the hilly course and you have one awesomely tough race. Of the 17000 people that started on Sunday only 13000 finished. There were about 500 people who needed medical attention afterwards, 80 admitted to hospital including 20 to ICU.

I certainly think it's possible, but needs to be built up to gradually. Last year I was better prepared and I clearly remember when I passed the 26.2 mile course, *then* had run an extra 4 miles and *then* I thought, ok, now I start another marathon

There are plenty of training plans on the internet, from the Comrades website if you're really serious and want to do it at some point

Happy running

[Cybertronian]

ewenm said:

Motivation / Psychology / Confidence / Mojo - whatever you call it, it is an ephemeral and fickle thing for me. As most of you probably know I've been running for a long time (over 25 years!) with some decent success in that time but also some periods of injury, illness and life getting in the way of running. I find it can be small things that make a big difference to my motivation around running. I use running as much more than just fitness:

• "Me time"
• Stress reduction/mental health improvement
• Social
• Competition

From a family life viewpoint, the top two in that list are the most important. Running keeps me sane and the family appreciate that! Anyway, back to the "small things" - I've been struggling recently because I've had a succession of colds/illness that has prevent me running. This has coincided with a few races I was hoping to do well in, with the Euro Mountain Running trial for Team GB that was on last weekend. I made the decision not to run, and was feeling pretty down about it but had planned the weekend in Lancaster and the Lakes already so went along to spectate the race anyway. I'm so glad I did! Two things about the day completely re-energised my running-mojo.

Firstly, it was great to see a couple of old training partners and friends do well in the race - one came 2nd and has been selected for the GB team and the other came 8th. He was disappointed with that but it looked good to me. From a selfish viewpoint it motivated me to get to that level as I know I can run as well as those guys if I train consistently and intelligently.

Secondly, I chose a spectating point halfway up the course and got chatting to the marshal at that point. It turns out she is the Chair of Selectors for the GB and England Mountain Running Teams and she was really encouraging to talk to, giving me lots of advice of races to target, potential selection opportunities and possible England vests up for grabs. It also turns out that she knows just about every runner I used to train with at Uni or when I lived in London, as well as some of my local training partners. The conversation reminded me that the running community in general is supportive and positive at all levels.

Just that half-day spectating has turned my outlook round from being pretty negative about running to being positive and keen to plan the next tranche of training and racing. Small things...

Thanks for sharing that, Ewen. Not belonging to a club, it's very rare that I get to speak with high-level runners but it's always fascinating to hear what makes them tick. Odd question perhaps, but what would it have taken for you to step up to elite level running?

[Dr Murdoch]

ewenm said:

My thoughts:
Tempo: like the long run, build the distance of this over the weeks. Perhaps starting with 2-3 miles and adding 0.5 mile each time. 3k is quite a long warm up/down, I tend to do 1 mile warm up/down but it's personal choice. I guess more is better if you have the time.
Speed: 3 min recovery is quite long on 400m efforts. Given your 400m at that pace are roughly 1:45 then I wouldn't have more than 2 mins recovery. My rule of thumb is recovery between 50% and 100% of the effort duration. Obviously 2 mins is slightly over 100% effort duration but that's fine for getting used to doing sessions like this. Same comment as above on warm up/down.

Thanks Ewen

Well, I done the tempo run last night, christ on a bike I found it tough! First one ive ever done so I hope it will be less brutal as my fitness increases and weight drops off a bit (i'm currently 12.5 stone and and should be 11.8-11.13).

1 mile slow run, followed by 2 mile @ 7.40 min/mile then 1.5m slow run, as you say, I'll add on half a mile next week.

Thanks again

[ewenm]

Dr Murdoch said:

Thanks Ewen

Well, I done the tempo run last night, christ on a bike I found it tough! First one ive ever done so I hope it will be less brutal as my fitness increases and weight drops off a bit (i'm currently 12.5 stone and and should be 11.8-11.13).

1 mile slow run, followed by 2 mile @ 7.40 min/mile then 1.5m slow run, as you say, I'll add on half a mile next week.

Thanks again

Well done! That sounds like a good pace based on your earlier predictions. You get the big benefit from tempo runs as you build the distance but you're right, they are hard work!

To give an idea of a speed session, this is what we did last night (on track, group of 3, me the slowest):
5x400m with 100m jog recovery (approx 35-40s), paces 72-75s
6x1k with 1 min recovery, pace 3:15-3:20

On my knees at the end of it!

[ewenm]

Cybertronian said:

Thanks for sharing that, Ewen. Not belonging to a club, it's very rare that I get to speak with high-level runners but it's always fascinating to hear what makes them tick. Odd question perhaps, but what would it have taken for you to step up to elite level running?

Something I've thought about quite a lot... It depends what you mean by elite. If you mean "earning a living from being an athlete" then I don't think I have the talent/genetics. If you mean "make a national squad" then it becomes more possible. Perhaps if I'd committed a little more to running at Uni (less socialising) or taken a bigger risk and gone full-time athlete after Uni, perhaps... The decision was always about how to balance work/study, life and running. Committing more to running would have had negative impacts on getting a job, earning enough for a decent life. I guess I wasn't willing to take that risk at the time although looking back, there wasn't a better time to try it.

A training partner of mine did commit to it, made the Commonwealth Games, ran a sub-4 mile, but struggled with work and earning enough to get by. Was it worth it for him? I don't know.

There are always "what if"s but I'm pretty happy with where I've ended up - good life, great family, 25+ years of competitive running and hopefully lots more to come, still potential for high level competition, and importantly an understanding of how to manage my mental health via my sport.

[ED209]

First ever marathon on Sunday - Edinburgh, ran with the wife who was aiming to dip under 3hrs 45 mins to qualify for a London good for age entry. It was both of our first marathons so we didn't really know what to expect once we passed out longest 20.5 mile training run. To be honest the wife had trained harder and more structured than me so i thought it would be me who struggled in the later stages if anyone.

Well the forecast for Sunday was awful with high winds and rain, it turned out to be wrong but the wind did pick up and the last 6-7 miles were ran into a very,very strong headwind.

We both started off at our target pace and didn't get drawn into going off too fast. We were both affected by toilet issues in the first 10 ish miles though and stopped 4 times which maybe cost us a couple of minutes.

We reached halfway bang on target pace and held that up to about 21 miles where i noticed my wifes breathing was a bit laboured and she was starting to struggle. This meant miles 22 and 23 drifted over 9 min mile pace. I tried to offer her encouragement but just past 23 miles she broke down and started walking briefly. Despite my protests she told me to leave her, which i did after about the 10th order!

I managed to get back on pace somehow despite feeling knackered and really struggling with the 30mph plus headwind which had strengthened during the race meaning we didn't really get the benefit of it on our backs in the early stages. I ended up finishing in 3 hrs 44 mins 7 seconds which I was absolutely over the moon with as my only real aim was just to get round and maybe, possibly under 4 hours if i was lucky.

The wife managed to pick herself back up again and finished in 3hrs 47 mins which she was disappointed with but I think is fantastic for someone who struggled for a few years to get her half marathon time below 2 hours!

Had we not both had toilet issues and the wind not been an absolute bustard i really think she would have hit her target!

I think i possibly might have done the first half a little faster but i was very conscious of not going too hard, maybe this was the right strategy given the amount of cramped up and walking people we passed in the later stages?

My splits -

Chip Time: 03:44:07
Gun Time: 03:48:42
Split 1: 00:53:11
Split 2: 01:52:02 (Half Marathon)
Split 3: 02:38:03
Overall finish position: 1618 of 7160
Category: Over 35 Male
Category finish position: 280 of 804

[ewenm]

Breaking (ish!) scandal over Alberto Salazar (Farah's coach) and doping in his group. Panorama at 9pm.

There have been rumours of dubious diagnoses and prescriptions for a while, especially around thyroid drugs. Interesting to see it going mainstream.

[Cybertronian]

A real shame if it turns out to be true and could take the sport ages to recover from.