The **BOXING** thread

[deevlash]

sounds to me like PBF is worried pacman is on the HGH

[elitedetailer]

amir_j said:

elitedetailer said:

amir_j said:

Lost_BMW said:

amir_j said:

Personally hope Mayweather turns it down and the stigma now attached to Pac sticks, no reason not to agree if both fighters in same boat imo.

What?!

Don't see why the pac man would be so against drug tests which, being the same for both parties, would not give Mayweather an unfair advantage.

Why not just do it and go on and win, rather than potentially having a question mark forever hanging over you.

Pacman isn't against the drug tests. He has agreed to the normal drug tests, isn't it Mayweather who is trying to implement "new style tests"? Let's not forget, Pacman has agreed to Mayweather's new style tests apart from drawing blood for the last few weeks leading to the fight as he wants no disruptiontions. He has said you can examine every single urine sample upto and after the fight. He has also said, they can draw blood from him on fight night straight after the fight in the locker room.

If there was any form of drugs in his system on fight night, the blood test straight after the fight would pick this up no?

It seems Mayweather is trying to call all the shots in this bout, are they not also fighting at Mayweather's optimum weight not Pacman's as he is naturally lighter? Can someone clarify on this?

I think there will be bigger question marks on Mayweather's career as Pacman hasn't got a "ducking" reputation.

All being said, if they do fight, I think Mayweather will win on points.


Either way, I want the fight to go ahead as I WILL be there!

To answer your questions
1) Mayweather isn't doing 'new style', you have the 'softer' boxing standard tests which are different to standard most sports tests, the international doping commission (forgot official name) who cover most other sports, they take 3 I think prior to event, Pac man agreed to do these IF they were pre-planned dates and times. they refused this as their rules are random- remember how Rio got banned as they turned up on a random day and he went missing?...

So question mark one over him is why refuse random? if preplanned dates then a potential drug user could make sure he was clean for the test by not taking anything for X days prior.

2) We aren't talking about after the fight, drugs can be used to great effect to assist the training rather than the actual fight so if the after fight test is clean that does not mean all was rosy.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Lost_BMW]

amir_j said:

Lost_BMW said:

e.g Eastside boxing is an established forum - 26% when polled say yes which is a sizable minority.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php...

Edited by amir_j on Monday 28th December 20:33

Know the site well (one of my Bookmarks); sizeable but still a minority.

But polling a bunch of people (outsiders, of the camp) who really don't have a clue - like us! - doesn't really prove or add anything does it?

[amir_j]

Lost_BMW said:

amir_j said:

Lost_BMW said:

e.g Eastside boxing is an established forum - 26% when polled say yes which is a sizable minority.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php...

Edited by amir_j on Monday 28th December 20:33

Know the site well (one of my Bookmarks); sizeable but still a minority.

But polling a bunch of people (outsiders, of the camp) who really don't have a clue - like us! - doesn't really prove or add anything does it?

The problem is that the stigma will stay and his legacy and history fatally tarnished. Instead of a bunch of people how about this guys opinion?


Oscar De La Hoya gives his take on Manny Pacquiao’s refusal to take Olympic-style random blood tests, which is threatening to scuttle a pending fight with Floyd Mayweather Jr. on March 13. Bob Arum, Pacquiao’s promoter, has said that the fighter is willing to take blood tests three months before the fight, 30 days before the fight and after the fight but not random tests. Pacquiao doesn’t want to be tested close to fight because, he says, it weakens him. The sides appear to be considering a compromise that would involve a cutoff date for testing – maybe 3-5 days before the fight – to solve the impasse. De La Hoya has fought two fighters found to have taken performance enhancing drugs – Shane Mosley and Fernando Vargas. He also fought Pacquiao.

"First of all, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency agreed that they won’t take blood from the fighters 48 hours before the fight as some people seem to think. They’re going to take only a few tablespoons through random testing in the three months leading up to the fight.

If Pacquiao, the toughest guy on the planet, is afraid of needles and having a few tablespoons of blood drawn from his system, then something is wrong. The guy has tattoos everywhere; he’s tattooed from top to bottom. You’re telling me he’s afraid of needles?

And the idea that urine tests can detect HGH [Human Growth Hormone] is wrong. I talked to Travis Tygart, CEO of the USADA. He testified before Congress that anyone who says HGH can be detected by a urine test is mistaken. It can only be detected by a blood test.

So you have to do the blood work. If Pacquiao doesn’t want to do this and risk a possible $40 million payday because he’s afraid of needles or believes he’ll be weakened by blood tests, then that raises question marks.

Now I have to wonder about him. I’m saying to myself, “Wow. Those Mosley punches, those Vargas punches and those Pacquiao punches all felt the same.” [b]I’m not saying yes or no [about whether Pacquiao might be taking performance-enhancing drugs]; I’m just saying that now people have to wonder: “Why doesn’t he want to do this? Why is it such a big deal.”

A lot of eyebrows have been raised. This is not good at all. [/b]

I believe Mayweather wants to do the right thing, to get tested properly. He’s not doing it to harass Pacquiao; that’s garbage. I would say to Pacquiao: “Do the test. Do it because it’s only a couple of tablespoons. Needles don’t hurt. Just look away when they put the needle in your arm.” He’ll probably lose more blood in the fight than the blood being drawn for the test.

And do it because we as a sport are in a unique situation. We can paint ourselves as the cleanest sport by doing this test. Why don’t you want to do it?

C’mon. It’s only a little bit of blood. If you have nothing to hide, then do the test."

http://www.ringtv.com/blog/1457/de_la_hoya_blog_pa...

Edited by amir_j on Tuesday 29th December 00:09

[Lost_BMW]

OK - point taken.

But I'm still not convinced just because De le Hoya is suspicious. Maybe he is right, maybe not - he knows no more than we do (unless he's taken the stuff); claiming he can correlate the feel of punches and so map this to an assumption of similar causation (he took x, and his punches feel the same so he must be on x too . .) if that is what he is implying is bullst.

As I'm sure you know there are far too many biomechanical and physical factors behind punch delivery, speed and power - including the opponent! - to be able to attribute their force, impact and results to any one thing including drugs. Manny always had a hard punch, even when he wasn't nearly so close to being the full package as he is now, and, as many before, has managed to retain the natural gift even as he's moved up in weight.

This shouldn't be a surprise - his training/coaching is definitely better than it was earlier in his career and if his technique and timing allow him to deliver punches with good command of the kinetic chain then he will be punching as well, technically, and with more weight to combat any reduction in punch speed, which itself is not apparent.

The suspicion seems to be of GH (assuming Mayweather really does harbour any actual suspicion which again I doubt, shenanigans) so I'd be interested to hear from anyone on the forum for any info. on how GH is supposed to affect punching power. From my reading of steroids and GH etc. through an interest in weight lifting/body building I've always been led to believe that it offers little athletically - even in terms of strength - compared to steroids. I'd like to hear others' views on this.

By the way, have you read any articles/biographies of DHL, especially these including comments from people close to him on the way up?

[elitedetailer]

I hear MP's goatee has magical powers and FMJ wants him to shave it off for the fight..... :-)

[scorp]

amir_j said:

C’mon. It’s only a little bit of blood. If you have nothing to hide, then do the test."

Upto 330ml i read.

He should take the tests, but if it's a decent quantity then i would agree it wouldn't be a good idea in the few days before the fight.

Edited by scorp on Tuesday 29th December 00:59

[amir_j]

Things are hotting up, a good move (although rather a blood test had been demanded)


“I don't know if this will help the chances of the fight happening. But with all this talk of drug tests, let's actually do one,” NSAC executive director Keith Kizer said in an Agence France-Presse (AFP) report.

Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr have been ordered to submit to urine tests within 48 hours by the Nevada State Athletic commission."

...The two boxers must submit to the tests or face possible fines or suspension by the Nevada regulator. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/8432085.stm

Edited by amir_j on Tuesday 29th December 16:22

[deevlash]

if they get suspended by the NSAC all the other orgs in the states will follow suit.

[elitedetailer]

amir_j said:

Things are hotting up, a good move (although rather a blood test had been demanded)


“I don't know if this will help the chances of the fight happening. But with all this talk of drug tests, let's actually do one,” NSAC executive director Keith Kizer said in an Agence France-Presse (AFP) report.

Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr have been ordered to submit to urine tests within 48 hours by the Nevada State Athletic commission."

...The two boxers must submit to the tests or face possible fines or suspension by the Nevada regulator. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/8432085.stm


I better hold off canceling my booking!!!

I've just read on another site it's back on and there should be an official announcement in the next day. What do you think Amir?

Edited by amir_j on Tuesday 29th December 16:22

[amir_j]

Think too much money is on offer to both parties (and off course, the promotors and all the various admin/hangers ons) so will happen. On top of this whoever wins goes down as thee all time great of his era and can hang his gloves up with pride which is quite a prize.

But you never know - maybe one of them is less confident of winning the other and will duck it...

The fight being staged has a 95% probability I reckon, fingers crossed!

[elitedetailer]

amir_j said:

Think too much money is on offer to both parties (and off course, the promotors and all the various admin/hangers ons) so will happen. On top of this whoever wins goes down as thee all time great of his era and can hang his gloves up with pride which is quite a prize.

But you never know - maybe one of them is less confident of winning the other and will duck it...

The fight being staged has a 95% probability I reckon, fingers crossed!

Who do you think will win?

I think Mayweather by decision.

[amir_j]

Lost_BMW said:

OK - point taken.

But I'm still not convinced just because De le Hoya is suspicious. Maybe he is right, maybe not - he knows no more than we do (unless he's taken the stuff); claiming he can correlate the feel of punches and so map this to an assumption of similar causation (he took x, and his punches feel the same so he must be on x too . .) if that is what he is implying is bullst.

agree- its rubbish plus he lost to him so maybe bitter.

Lost_BMW said:

As I'm sure you know there are far too many biomechanical and physical factors behind punch delivery, speed and power - including the opponent! - to be able to attribute their force, impact and results to any one thing including drugs. Manny always had a hard punch, even when he wasn't nearly so close to being the full package as he is now, and, as many before, has managed to retain the natural gift even as he's moved up in weight.

This shouldn't be a surprise - his training/coaching is definitely better than it was earlier in his career and if his technique and timing allow him to deliver punches with good command of the kinetic chain then he will be punching as well, technically, and with more weight to combat any reduction in punch speed, which itself is not apparent.

Never boxed myself but makes sense- its Floyds dad who said that its impossible for anyone to make their way up through the weights that fast. And I keep thinking of Amir Khan who has got rather big and strong in a relatively short space of time so the camp know their stuff and supplements.

Lost_BMW said:

The suspicion seems to be of GH (assuming Mayweather really does harbour any actual suspicion which again I doubt, shenanigans) so I'd be interested to hear from anyone on the forum for any info. on how GH is supposed to affect punching power. From my reading of steroids and GH etc. through an interest in weight lifting/body building I've always been led to believe that it offers little athletically - even in terms of strength - compared to steroids. I'd like to hear others' views on this.

By the way, have you read any articles/biographies of DHL, especially these including comments from people close to him on the way up?

Wasn't not Mayweather who started it- its his Mayweather Snr after Mannys last fight, either ringside or few hours later stated he was fully convinced drugs were involved- hence why Manny is threatening to sue for defamation and why Floyds side started the issue.

not read the biographies as been studying whilst working last few years so no time, will do at some point as will be facinating. Last autobiography I read was John Majors :-)- suprisingly good.

[amir_j]

elitedetailer said:

amir_j said:

Think too much money is on offer to both parties (and off course, the promotors and all the various admin/hangers ons) so will happen. On top of this whoever wins goes down as thee all time great of his era and can hang his gloves up with pride which is quite a prize.

But you never know - maybe one of them is less confident of winning the other and will duck it...

The fight being staged has a 95% probability I reckon, fingers crossed!

Who do you think will win?

I think Mayweather by decision.

Not going to make a decision as no point- too close to call. Freddy's preperation will be superb and will find a weakness if anyone can, but Mayweather's natural talent may be too much. Plus who knows which uncle or dad will train Floyd or indeed have shot the other by that time :-).

Personality wise can't choose wither, if Mayweather wins can't complain- beyond the brash talk he has worked hard to get where he is with the childhood he had etc and if Manny wins then represents a lot for his country and region. If anything though from reports seems Floyd has more of a 'ghetto' diy set up around him (like Calzaghe did) as opposed to Freddy's clinical hand picked team of world experts.

[Lost_BMW]

amir_j said:

Lost_BMW said:

OK - point taken.

But I'm still not convinced just because De le Hoya is suspicious. Maybe he is right, maybe not - he knows no more than we do (unless he's taken the stuff); claiming he can correlate the feel of punches and so map this to an assumption of similar causation (he took x, and his punches feel the same so he must be on x too . .) if that is what he is implying is bullst.

agree- its rubbish plus he lost to him so maybe bitter.

Lost_BMW said:

As I'm sure you know there are far too many biomechanical and physical factors behind punch delivery, speed and power - including the opponent! - to be able to attribute their force, impact and results to any one thing including drugs. Manny always had a hard punch, even when he wasn't nearly so close to being the full package as he is now, and, as many before, has managed to retain the natural gift even as he's moved up in weight.

This shouldn't be a surprise - his training/coaching is definitely better than it was earlier in his career and if his technique and timing allow him to deliver punches with good command of the kinetic chain then he will be punching as well, technically, and with more weight to combat any reduction in punch speed, which itself is not apparent.

Never boxed myself but makes sense- its Floyds dad who said that its impossible for anyone to make their way up through the weights that fast. And I keep thinking of Amir Khan who has got rather big and strong in a relatively short space of time so the camp know their stuff and supplements.

Lost_BMW said:

The suspicion seems to be of GH (assuming Mayweather really does harbour any actual suspicion which again I doubt, shenanigans) so I'd be interested to hear from anyone on the forum for any info. on how GH is supposed to affect punching power. From my reading of steroids and GH etc. through an interest in weight lifting/body building I've always been led to believe that it offers little athletically - even in terms of strength - compared to steroids. I'd like to hear others' views on this.

By the way, have you read any articles/biographies of DHL, especially these including comments from people close to him on the way up?

Wasn't not Mayweather who started it- its his Mayweather Snr after Mannys last fight, either ringside or few hours later stated he was fully convinced drugs were involved- hence why Manny is threatening to sue for defamation and why Floyds side started the issue.

not read the biographies as been studying whilst working last few years so no time, will do at some point as will be facinating. Last autobiography I read was John Majors :-)- suprisingly good.

I did wonder how much post-loss bitterness was behind that.

Mayweather senior is as everyone knows a loose canon at best, a nutter at worst, so no surprise him being behind this. The on video & press conference comments he made about Freddie Roach say it all about where what's left of his brain is.

The reason I mentioned the DLH writings are because quite a few people who worked with/mentored/bankrolled him as he was coming up seem to think he's a bit flakey!

[Chessers]

I think that it was Mayweathers uncle who first mentioned theat Pacquiao might be juicing.

I for one appreciate that Floyd may be trying to get in Mannys head pre-fight about the blood testing, but I really fail to see why Pacquiao is refusing to be tested three days prior to the fight. In no way am I saying he is using GH or any other steroids but I fail to see why it is such a big deal.

He may feel it is a break from routine and that Mayweather is getting one up on him, but if he agrees now to the tests, everyone will forget about it and he'll get back into his training programme.

The DLH comments about Pacs tatoos are pretty valid in my opinion, how can he be afriad of needles? I don't think that the DLH interview is bitter, if you read the full interview in The Ring magazine he states that Pacquiao took him apart and that he should not have even tried to make the weight.

Cotto said the same about Pac, the best fighter he ever fought.

As I have stated before, I think the fight will happen and I still have a suspicion that this is all for publicity as the fight and the doping questions are headlining every good boxing site across the world.

Unfortunately the topic leaves a lot to be desired and with the investigation into Mosley still going on and the ban on Margarito for loading his gloves I think the bodies need to nip this in the bud asap.

Like them or loathe them they are both quality fighters with good technique and it will be a very very good fight.

Don't want to see this one go down the pan.

[tuscaneer]

one thing we are forgetting about de la hoya`s statement is the fact he is mayweather`s promoter for this fight!(golden boy/mayweatherpromotions)so i can only take his statements with a pinch of salt.it`s only 5 minutes ago he was sucking hatton`s dick spurring him on to do a job obn mayweather.some valid points made,i`ll give you that though.
something that isn`t mentioned much about manny is that his feat of 7 weight divisions probably won`t ever happen again.it was an unusual set of circumstances that have led to where we are now.the guy turned pro as a tiny young teenager who was fighting off natural instinct rather than years of amateur training(totally at odds wwith the vast majority of how pro fighters cross over).as his body naturally got bigger over the next DECADE he started getting bigger and stronger without losing the ferocity of his punch. this increase in size was made more apparent by his untrained physique at the start of his career.couple this with the tutlage of roach and the importance of refining technique(see lost bmw`s comments above) plus the fact he now has access to arguably the world`s best nutritionists and you can see why the guy is an anomoly.
i feel he is now at his fully grown natural weight of light welter but then i see what he did to cotto!i think floyd has matured naturally into a fully fledged welter but there won`t be the same size discrepancy as there was with cotto.
i hope,and feel, that all this growth hormone/steroid talk is just a hype job and we can settle down to the fight soon though i suspect with a blown eardrum it won`t be in march.

as to the outcome of the fight i am starting to think the outcome hinges on how floyd will react when he is in deep water.the obvious way for floyd to win is to run away all night pulling that "oh st, what will happen if i ever do get hit"face every time someone is within striking distance.none of us know what will happen if he suddenly gets put on his arse.we don`t know if he has the resolve to suck it up because as of yet i can`t recall seeing him in those situations.but what happens if he lets his best shots go and manny is still there smiling at him in that way that says" you can`t hurt me and we both know it".will his resolve break ??

i think you are looking at two scenarios.pbf to win on points by getting on his bike all night in a relatively lacklustre fight or manny catching and then ruffling his feathers and drawing him on to some knockout powered shots.can floyd`s chin take it??none of us can know this yet.
the outside bet,but the result i would like to see is manny getting to him before he can find his rhythm,get him cold and unload all over him for an early night.

all thes outcomes could occur but it`s down to how floyd reacts as to which one we see.

[elitedetailer]

A recent Roach interview: http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler123009.htm

[baptistsan]

Mmmmmmmm, that doesn't put Roach in the best of lights. So he thinks NO test can detect HGH, but the interviewer clearly thinks something else. And Roach don't like that.

[Lost_BMW]

elitedetailer said:

A recent Roach interview: http://www.doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler123009.htm

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!

I hope it's just down to the anger of being told what to do or at being refuted/demeaned as a 'known expert' but it is concerning. Do they do a test for 'Humble Pie' intake, if I have to start using?

Oh, and I love the fact that 4 out of the 6 ads. in the panel next to the interview are for HGH suppliers!

Edited by Lost_BMW on Friday 1st January 19:27