The **BOXING** thread

The **BOXING** thread

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tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Tuesday 8th December 2009
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i think you`ve got a point there fella,it`s a bit of a guage but not a proper measuring stick.i`ve got an old promo poster somewhere that was selling the joe louis/tony galento fight in the 30`s.the selling point being that all of their common opponents had been stopped quicker by two ton tony than joe!apart from that little embarrassment in the middle for the bomber we all know how joe destroyed galento.

nick s

1,368 posts

216 months

Tuesday 8th December 2009
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dirty boy said:
nick s said:
i think people are thinkign about floyds reflexes when they think about his speed. i was at pacquiao cotto, and when manny threw those combos it really was a blur of hands. it's so amazing to see in front of your eyes. i think he's as quick as Floyd. Floyd doesn't throw big combos anyway.

For the people who are comparing them based on Marquez as i predicted smile If we are going down that route, how about the fact that it took mayweather 10 rounds to get rid of Hatton compared to Pacquiaos's 2 rounds? Also, de la hoya took Floyd to a close split decision and Manny had him out of there in 8 rounds. But again, you can't really use those for comparison, as styles make fights!
But then you cannot compare the Oscar PBF fought, to the one Manny did, oceans apart.

Hatton, well, I think we all believe his lifestyle has finally (and sadly) caught up with him, and he too was not the same man who PBF fought.

Whatever way you look at it, you can never judge a fight on who has fought who before, just too many factors to consider.

PBF was prepared to take on what was considered at that point, a prime Hatton, and a big Oscar.

PBF is class, even if he does tend to avoid some fighters in their prime.
lol, isn't that pretty much exactly what i said? you can't judge fights like that? i was merely using the hatton and de la hoya references, to show how the Marquez argument wasn't valid scratchchin

scorp

8,783 posts

228 months

Tuesday 8th December 2009
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tuscaneer said:
i think you`ve got a point there fella,it`s a bit of a guage but not a proper measuring stick.i`ve got an old promo poster somewhere that was selling the joe louis/tony galento fight in the 30`s.the selling point being that all of their common opponents had been stopped quicker by two ton tony than joe!apart from that little embarrassment in the middle for the bomber we all know how joe destroyed galento.
Styles make fights as they say. IMO i thought Castillo came close to beating PBF then Hatton destroyed him years later, albeit when Castillo was a more faded.

Can't wait for PBF vs Pacquiao. Always seem to remember PBF having problems with quick southpaws, anyone remember him vs Juddah and Chop chop Corley ?

dirty boy

Original Poster:

14,688 posts

208 months

Tuesday 8th December 2009
quotequote all
nick s said:
dirty boy said:
nick s said:
i think people are thinkign about floyds reflexes when they think about his speed. i was at pacquiao cotto, and when manny threw those combos it really was a blur of hands. it's so amazing to see in front of your eyes. i think he's as quick as Floyd. Floyd doesn't throw big combos anyway.

For the people who are comparing them based on Marquez as i predicted smile If we are going down that route, how about the fact that it took mayweather 10 rounds to get rid of Hatton compared to Pacquiaos's 2 rounds? Also, de la hoya took Floyd to a close split decision and Manny had him out of there in 8 rounds. But again, you can't really use those for comparison, as styles make fights!
But then you cannot compare the Oscar PBF fought, to the one Manny did, oceans apart.

Hatton, well, I think we all believe his lifestyle has finally (and sadly) caught up with him, and he too was not the same man who PBF fought.

Whatever way you look at it, you can never judge a fight on who has fought who before, just too many factors to consider.

PBF was prepared to take on what was considered at that point, a prime Hatton, and a big Oscar.

PBF is class, even if he does tend to avoid some fighters in their prime.
lol, isn't that pretty much exactly what i said? you can't judge fights like that? i was merely using the hatton and de la hoya references, to show how the Marquez argument wasn't valid scratchchin
Sorry, typical of me to skim read and jump on my high horse hehe


Anyway, I'm glad we've got a thread to spend ages talking about it on!

DJC

23,563 posts

235 months

Tuesday 8th December 2009
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Meh, who gives a crap.

You got Frankie Gavin coming through and Frankie is getting accuracy rates with his shots that are off the wall whenever I see this kid box. Every goddam tool in the box and he is barely out of nappies.

I cant wait for his next bout.

tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Wednesday 9th December 2009
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there is a fairly good crop of kids coming through at the moment,gavin and groves stand out for me.obscure one but keep your eyes peeled for a khazak kid called gennady golovkin.middleweight, glittering amateur carreer(olympic siver,worlds gold)beating a lot of current good pro names,and is 18-0 (15ko)in the pros.

DJC

23,563 posts

235 months

Wednesday 9th December 2009
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Alas Ive lost my Friday night Fight Night access frown I really enjoyed that prog as most of the interest was to be found watching the various undercard fighters and keeping tabs on developing names. One guy I like is Nathan Cleverley (sp?).

I volunteered to give Sky Sports up for a month before Xmas.

Dont ask frown

tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Wednesday 9th December 2009
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cleverley is a superb fighter,very mature and contols the fight effortlessly.very aggressive where required but never reckless.big fights to come over the next year or two for sure.

incidentally,i won`t ask but my assumptions are usually far worse than reality!!

Edited by tuscaneer on Wednesday 9th December 09:40

general ptolemy

23 posts

171 months

Wednesday 9th December 2009
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Nick s you are far too quick to disregard comparisons being made between the Mayweather Marquez fight and the Pacquaio Marquez fight. Clearly it would be completely foolish and ill-judged to claim 'mayweather won better so will beat manny'. However, this was not my point at all in bringing up the issue. As has been quite correctly and clearly stated; 'styles make fights', something you acknowledge as you said yourself you wouldn't compare such fights as Pacquaio Hatton and Mayweather Hatton.

However, my point was that Marquez's style suited Mayweather perfectly, and that Marquez's style surely can't be classed as very different to Manny's? Then to go on, from the Marquez Pacquaio fight it was clear that Marquez was as quick and skillful as Pacquaio, getting to the punch first on as many occassions as Pacquaio himself did. Therefore, the Marquez Mayweather fight can lead us somewhere if we agreed that it would have a similar 'style matchup' as Mayweather Pacquaio (i.e. defensive vs offensive). So, following this logic there can at least be an argument which does not warrant your dismissive, smug, and simplistic comment about such a fight comparison being futile.

However, as Tuscaneer quite rightly remarked, the Marquez that fought against Mayweather was certainly not the same man that fought Pacquaio as the extra weight did not sit as comfortably. And perhaps the reason Pacquaio's recent success has been so impressive has been due to his ability to carry both his weight and speed through the divisions. Thus, on these grounds, one could undermine the comparison between the fights, but it certainly deserved a more thorough and thoughtful response than your flippant remark.

tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Friday 11th December 2009
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vitali klitschko tomorrow night....kevin whoever seems to have a bigger gob than david haye but he must be lllloooonnnngggg odds to cause an upset in swizerland.
i must admit i find haye`s baiting tactics very funny and his recent outburst about this saturdays fight fantastic.can`t say i`m particularly looking foreward to him and ruiz though.

DJC

23,563 posts

235 months

Friday 11th December 2009
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Gotta say I dont think Ruiz will get near him.

Robatr0n

12,362 posts

215 months

Friday 11th December 2009
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Pacquiao vs Mayweather is an intriguing match up. Pacman has never fought anyone like PBF and PBF has never fought anyone like Pacman.

My opinion of this fight changes on a daily basis and I have two ideas of what is going to happen. We all know that Pacquiao has fantastic stamina and somehow has the ability to throw fast and powerful combinations all night long whilst Mayweather has fantastic stamina and just potshots from the outside keeping his opponent at distance.

Due to the fact that Mayweather doesn't seem to throw many punches anymore, he may drop some close rounds due to Pacquiao's workrate and willingness to always press the action. Infact, it's entirely possible that he will evade most of Pacmans punches but will end up losing the fight by decision due to not being active enough.

Having said that, I've been following Mayweather for years and I've noticed that he does whatever he has to do to win a fight. If that means potshotting from the outside then that's what he'll do but I think that if someone pushes him into a war that he'll bite back and dish out some punishment of his own. I genuinely believe that if he is pushed hard enough he will up his game.

It's also worth pointing out that Pacman does not like the jab being thrown at him. When Cotto was able to throw the jab it was landing on Pacman and frustrating him but as soon as Pacman pressed the action Cotto stopped throwing the jab.

My prediction today? Mayweather counters Pacquiao at will and keeps him at bay all fight and punishs him with the straight right. Ask me again tomorrow and my opinion may change again. laugh

Robatr0n

12,362 posts

215 months

Friday 11th December 2009
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Oh I forgot to add, look for Klitschko to punish Johnson at the weekend. Johnson is not a bad boxer but he hasn't the power to worry Vitali and if I'm brutally honest he isn't even in the same league as the K brothers.

The only way he wins is if father time catches up with Vitali.

Lost_BMW

12,955 posts

175 months

Saturday 12th December 2009
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tuscaneer said:
vitali klitschko tomorrow night....
'had wondered why there hadn't been more interest and comment on this fight.

For true boxing fans it would be worth taking the chance to see one of the pair of the best (heavyweight) operators out there (ever?) before he retires, which can't be too long now given his age.

Especially since it isn't on Pay for View

tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Monday 14th December 2009
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oh man, another unbeaten big gobbed yank turns up and doesn`t fancy the job.i knew at the weigh in when johnson showed up in sunglasses that his arse had gone before the opening bell.what a boring fight!but if only one party is willing to engage and the other goes into his shell then what can you expect.very far from a vintage performance from vitali but spoilers can make the best look bad.since his return from retirement 4 fights ago vitali has been on fire,so i can forgive him a bit of an off night!even though that horrible managed to take him the distance(only the second man to do so)vitali still has the highest ko% of any heavyweight in history.

Edited by tuscaneer on Monday 14th December 10:08

Robatr0n

12,362 posts

215 months

Monday 14th December 2009
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I'd agree with that. smile

Vitali didn't look great but what alot of people overlook is that he has excellent timing and is more over a counter-puncher than all out brawler. Alot of people may also look at this fight and think that Haye stands more of a chance but I'm still not so sure. Who knows, maybe Haye will shock me!

Since Vitali's return, he hasn't been putting any weight behind his punches so to see him take his opposition apart with just arm punches is incredible. The man is a monster!

tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Monday 14th December 2009
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agreed mate, i think he is a lot less forceful in his punching these days due to the constant threat of re-injuring his shoulder coupled with the fact that a 40 year old bloke aint going to fight like he did in his 20`s!he seems to make more use of opponents coming foreward these days and rammimg in that jab on the counter.the fact that he is still knocking nearly all of them out,especially after a long long lay off is astounding.this performance,however,will spur on haye somewhat.my only worry for haye is that if he does go flying in and gets a stiff counter(especially that right cross)he may get starched.

dirty boy

Original Poster:

14,688 posts

208 months

Monday 14th December 2009
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tuscaneer said:
agreed mate, i think he is a lot less forceful in his punching these days due to the constant threat of re-injuring his shoulder coupled with the fact that a 40 year old bloke aint going to fight like he did in his 20`s!he seems to make more use of opponents coming foreward these days and rammimg in that jab on the counter.the fact that he is still knocking nearly all of them out,especially after a long long lay off is astounding.this performance,however,will spur on haye somewhat.my only worry for haye is that if he does go flying in and gets a stiff counter(especially that right cross)he may get starched.
I was hoping to watch the fight, but i've not had a chance, works party and then a day with the kids on trains and stuff, never mind, I have it on record, sounds like he did a decent job, I'll try and grab it tonight, I don't think anyone had any doubt over the result though, I know it was a Vitali fight, and Johnson has done bugger all, so I think most knew this was a formality for the big guy.

Lost_BMW

12,955 posts

175 months

Monday 14th December 2009
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Can't disagree that it was dull even though Vitali stayed pretty active throughout the fight. Johnson's chin must be pretty good but all he did for most of it was cower behind his gloves - defence 1 offence 0 !

As for Klitchko's punching - he always has had a style that makes the straight shots and especially his cuffing hook off jab look like arm punches - both of the brothers do - but if you watch the foot and trunk movement, especially in slow motion it can be deceptive and he has often managed to get quite a bit of twist and leverage in to them. He's so well schooled, has such good technique and is so athletic that I think he uses that 'kinetic chain' concept well without it always looking too overt.

If he is pulling shots these days I'd suspect the shoulder/injury issues rather than age. No reason why a fit 40 year old can't hit about as hard on single shots as when younger. I'm fairly sure that I punch as hard now as I did in my 20's - might be difficult to do it as often for so long and maybe a bit slower but training and technique can give some improvements to counter the effects of time (guessing I'm the oldest git on the thread!)

tuscaneer

7,738 posts

224 months

Monday 14th December 2009
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Lost_BMW said:
Can't disagree that it was dull even though Vitali stayed pretty active throughout the fight. Johnson's chin must be pretty good but all he did for most of it was cower behind his gloves - defence 1 offence 0 !

As for Klitchko's punching - he always has had a style that makes the straight shots and especially his cuffing hook off jab look like arm punches - both of the brothers do - but if you watch the foot and trunk movement, especially in slow motion it can be deceptive and he has often managed to get quite a bit of twist and leverage in to them. He's so well schooled, has such good technique and is so athletic that I think he uses that 'kinetic chain' concept well without it always looking too overt.

If he is pulling shots these days I'd suspect the shoulder/injury issues rather than age. No reason why a fit 40 year old can't hit about as hard on single shots as when younger. I'm fairly sure that I punch as hard now as I did in my 20's - might be difficult to do it as often for so long and maybe a bit slower but training and technique can give some improvements to counter the effects of time (guessing I'm the oldest git on the thread!)
interesting points mate,i was always trained to imagine i was putting out a ciggie with my front foot when throwing a hook.by throwing my right heel out the twist forces your hips to go with it and your leverage is much greater.as a southpaw i tend to have some parrying battles to see who can establish the jab but i`m always looking to throw a left hand lead overhand as i go to duck under the other guys jab to the right(assuming he`s orthodox),stepping to the right as i do this.at this point my left should have got through the middle of his guard while i am now on the other side of his jab and set perfectly to let a right hook go to the side of his head.if it`s worked i`m on my fighting line but the other guy is still facing to my left so that i can get off but he`s ineffective due to being offline.

re. the age thing.i am 35 in a few weeks and am nowhere near the 75kg i used to be!!however, my much more mature mental state and my natural "man" power rather than "boy" power and youthful exhuberance means (i think!!) that the me of today versus the me of my early 20`s would win every time.i definately punch harder now,although admittedly less frequently,and am calmer under fire so use less nervous energy.

i am still nonplussed at the negativity towards the klitschkos from a lot of people.i really think the people who aren`t very impressed don`t really understand at a base level what they are actually watching.the slam bang david haye style is very exciting to me and i can understand why the casual fan is more turned on to this than a chess style masterclass but as you said earlier we should appreciate these guys while they are around because i genuinely feel it will be a long time until we have their likes again.
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