The **BOXING** thread
Discussion
general ptolemy said:
Nick s you are far too quick to disregard comparisons being made between the Mayweather Marquez fight and the Pacquaio Marquez fight. Clearly it would be completely foolish and ill-judged to claim 'mayweather won better so will beat manny'. However, this was not my point at all in bringing up the issue. As has been quite correctly and clearly stated; 'styles make fights', something you acknowledge as you said yourself you wouldn't compare such fights as Pacquaio Hatton and Mayweather Hatton.
However, my point was that Marquez's style suited Mayweather perfectly, and that Marquez's style surely can't be classed as very different to Manny's? Then to go on, from the Marquez Pacquaio fight it was clear that Marquez was as quick and skillful as Pacquaio, getting to the punch first on as many occassions as Pacquaio himself did. Therefore, the Marquez Mayweather fight can lead us somewhere if we agreed that it would have a similar 'style matchup' as Mayweather Pacquaio (i.e. defensive vs offensive). So, following this logic there can at least be an argument which does not warrant your dismissive, smug, and simplistic comment about such a fight comparison being futile.
However, as Tuscaneer quite rightly remarked, the Marquez that fought against Mayweather was certainly not the same man that fought Pacquaio as the extra weight did not sit as comfortably. And perhaps the reason Pacquaio's recent success has been so impressive has been due to his ability to carry both his weight and speed through the divisions. Thus, on these grounds, one could undermine the comparison between the fights, but it certainly deserved a more thorough and thoughtful response than your flippant remark.
Chill Winston!However, my point was that Marquez's style suited Mayweather perfectly, and that Marquez's style surely can't be classed as very different to Manny's? Then to go on, from the Marquez Pacquaio fight it was clear that Marquez was as quick and skillful as Pacquaio, getting to the punch first on as many occassions as Pacquaio himself did. Therefore, the Marquez Mayweather fight can lead us somewhere if we agreed that it would have a similar 'style matchup' as Mayweather Pacquaio (i.e. defensive vs offensive). So, following this logic there can at least be an argument which does not warrant your dismissive, smug, and simplistic comment about such a fight comparison being futile.
However, as Tuscaneer quite rightly remarked, the Marquez that fought against Mayweather was certainly not the same man that fought Pacquaio as the extra weight did not sit as comfortably. And perhaps the reason Pacquaio's recent success has been so impressive has been due to his ability to carry both his weight and speed through the divisions. Thus, on these grounds, one could undermine the comparison between the fights, but it certainly deserved a more thorough and thoughtful response than your flippant remark.
Firstly Manny was a different weight in the Marquez fights. If Manny fought JMM at welter he would destroy him. JMM was just a fat lightweight when he fought Mayweather. Plus, i think Manny has imporved even further this last year. We will see come March anyway! I certainly didn't mean my post to be as "flippant" as you have interpreted it!
Edited by nick s on Monday 14th December 15:50
nick s said:
general ptolemy said:
Nick s you are far too quick to disregard comparisons being made between the Mayweather Marquez fight and the Pacquaio Marquez fight. Clearly it would be completely foolish and ill-judged to claim 'mayweather won better so will beat manny'. However, this was not my point at all in bringing up the issue. As has been quite correctly and clearly stated; 'styles make fights', something you acknowledge as you said yourself you wouldn't compare such fights as Pacquaio Hatton and Mayweather Hatton.
However, my point was that Marquez's style suited Mayweather perfectly, and that Marquez's style surely can't be classed as very different to Manny's? Then to go on, from the Marquez Pacquaio fight it was clear that Marquez was as quick and skillful as Pacquaio, getting to the punch first on as many occassions as Pacquaio himself did. Therefore, the Marquez Mayweather fight can lead us somewhere if we agreed that it would have a similar 'style matchup' as Mayweather Pacquaio (i.e. defensive vs offensive). So, following this logic there can at least be an argument which does not warrant your dismissive, smug, and simplistic comment about such a fight comparison being futile.
However, as Tuscaneer quite rightly remarked, the Marquez that fought against Mayweather was certainly not the same man that fought Pacquaio as the extra weight did not sit as comfortably. And perhaps the reason Pacquaio's recent success has been so impressive has been due to his ability to carry both his weight and speed through the divisions. Thus, on these grounds, one could undermine the comparison between the fights, but it certainly deserved a more thorough and thoughtful response than your flippant remark.
Chill Winston!However, my point was that Marquez's style suited Mayweather perfectly, and that Marquez's style surely can't be classed as very different to Manny's? Then to go on, from the Marquez Pacquaio fight it was clear that Marquez was as quick and skillful as Pacquaio, getting to the punch first on as many occassions as Pacquaio himself did. Therefore, the Marquez Mayweather fight can lead us somewhere if we agreed that it would have a similar 'style matchup' as Mayweather Pacquaio (i.e. defensive vs offensive). So, following this logic there can at least be an argument which does not warrant your dismissive, smug, and simplistic comment about such a fight comparison being futile.
However, as Tuscaneer quite rightly remarked, the Marquez that fought against Mayweather was certainly not the same man that fought Pacquaio as the extra weight did not sit as comfortably. And perhaps the reason Pacquaio's recent success has been so impressive has been due to his ability to carry both his weight and speed through the divisions. Thus, on these grounds, one could undermine the comparison between the fights, but it certainly deserved a more thorough and thoughtful response than your flippant remark.
Firstly Manny was a different weight in the Marquez fights. If Manny fought JMM at welter he would destroy him. JMM was just a fat lightweight when he fought Mayweather. Plus, i think Manny has imporved even further this last year. We will see come March anyway! I certainly didn't mean my post to be as "flippant" as you have interpreted it!
Edited by nick s on Monday 14th December 15:50
As for the vitali fight, thought it was very boring, though clearly not his fault. Intrigued by Vitali, as it's so hard to grasp exactly how good he really is. He could quite easily be seen as massively underrated by most and could even be one of the greats... maybe? However, after watching a fight like last night it is hard to imagine him getting close to an Ali or a Tyson in his prime. But then again, I can't ever see a man like Vitali hitting the deck, he's never even received a standing 8 count, and his punching power is second to none.
I read somewhere (think on a bbc forum) that 'back in the day' when the americans dominated the heavyweight division it was partly due to the fact that eastern europeans never fought against them as obviously much more difficult to make transatlantic fights back then, and even more difficult for a Russian to fight an American. Does anyone know if there's much truth behind this as it would be an interesting point? Maybe the eastern europeans would have always dominated at heavyweight?
tuscaneer said:
Lost_BMW said:
Can't disagree that it was dull even though Vitali stayed pretty active throughout the fight. Johnson's chin must be pretty good but all he did for most of it was cower behind his gloves - defence 1 offence 0 !
As for Klitchko's punching - he always has had a style that makes the straight shots and especially his cuffing hook off jab look like arm punches - both of the brothers do - but if you watch the foot and trunk movement, especially in slow motion it can be deceptive and he has often managed to get quite a bit of twist and leverage in to them. He's so well schooled, has such good technique and is so athletic that I think he uses that 'kinetic chain' concept well without it always looking too overt.
If he is pulling shots these days I'd suspect the shoulder/injury issues rather than age. No reason why a fit 40 year old can't hit about as hard on single shots as when younger. I'm fairly sure that I punch as hard now as I did in my 20's - might be difficult to do it as often for so long and maybe a bit slower but training and technique can give some improvements to counter the effects of time (guessing I'm the oldest git on the thread!)
interesting points mate,i was always trained to imagine i was putting out a ciggie with my front foot when throwing a hook.by throwing my right heel out the twist forces your hips to go with it and your leverage is much greater.as a southpaw i tend to have some parrying battles to see who can establish the jab but i`m always looking to throw a left hand lead overhand as i go to duck under the other guys jab to the right(assuming he`s orthodox),stepping to the right as i do this.at this point my left should have got through the middle of his guard while i am now on the other side of his jab and set perfectly to let a right hook go to the side of his head.if it`s worked i`m on my fighting line but the other guy is still facing to my left so that i can get off but he`s ineffective due to being offline.As for Klitchko's punching - he always has had a style that makes the straight shots and especially his cuffing hook off jab look like arm punches - both of the brothers do - but if you watch the foot and trunk movement, especially in slow motion it can be deceptive and he has often managed to get quite a bit of twist and leverage in to them. He's so well schooled, has such good technique and is so athletic that I think he uses that 'kinetic chain' concept well without it always looking too overt.
If he is pulling shots these days I'd suspect the shoulder/injury issues rather than age. No reason why a fit 40 year old can't hit about as hard on single shots as when younger. I'm fairly sure that I punch as hard now as I did in my 20's - might be difficult to do it as often for so long and maybe a bit slower but training and technique can give some improvements to counter the effects of time (guessing I'm the oldest git on the thread!)
re. the age thing.i am 35 in a few weeks and am nowhere near the 75kg i used to be!!however, my much more mature mental state and my natural "man" power rather than "boy" power and youthful exhuberance means (i think!!) that the me of today versus the me of my early 20`s would win every time.i definately punch harder now,although admittedly less frequently,and am calmer under fire so use less nervous energy.
i am still nonplussed at the negativity towards the klitschkos from a lot of people.i really think the people who aren`t very impressed don`t really understand at a base level what they are actually watching.the slam bang david haye style is very exciting to me and i can understand why the casual fan is more turned on to this than a chess style masterclass but as you said earlier we should appreciate these guys while they are around because i genuinely feel it will be a long time until we have their likes again.
I may be 'anal' on this but I like to watch again and again, often in slow motion or frame by frame, the better punchers and study their technique carefully - I have a TV/DVD in my gym and can watch between rounds/doing cardio etc. then try different techniques for myself. I was taught like you to pivot and push the foot down into the floor for hooks and to make sure the hips/torso go behind it but it's possible to do this on the straight shots with fairly subtle movement and weight distribution - more easily felt by the puncher than seen by a viewer and I reckon this is what the brothers are good at. That's why they hurt people with shots that often don't look "all that" In MMA Anderson Silva is similar - well executed but not obviously flashy punches that do the job, whereas for all his talk and different backgrounds someone like Bisping just doesn't have 'it'.
I don't always get excited by their fights - and grew up watching the likes of Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman then Hagler, Hearns (perfect technique re. punch delivery), Leonard et al so am not easy to impress! - but I really have come to believe that the Klitchkos' are vastly underrated and about as good as it gets. Mind you, I can't wait to see Haye V either of them if he gets the shot!
Similarly I cant see the reason for all the negativity against Haye. Is it just because of his flash mouth?
There is nothing wrong with his talent levels or the workload he puts in, his training camp is serious, non-flash, he doesnt live the tosser lifestyle and he takes his job very seriously. OK, his fighting style might be more flash than attrition, but then he is making use of his areas of more talent than not in movement and explosive capability.
I think quite a few people will witness something they arent quite expecting with Haye v the Klits. I will certainly back him to take one of them if not both.
There is nothing wrong with his talent levels or the workload he puts in, his training camp is serious, non-flash, he doesnt live the tosser lifestyle and he takes his job very seriously. OK, his fighting style might be more flash than attrition, but then he is making use of his areas of more talent than not in movement and explosive capability.
I think quite a few people will witness something they arent quite expecting with Haye v the Klits. I will certainly back him to take one of them if not both.
I watched the Vitali fight last night, I was quite impressed. Johnson looked difficult to hit though, his defence was very good, if he'd have shown any commitment whatsoever at putting a few combinations together, he could have more than likely won a few rounds, as it was, I didn't see him winning a single round.
Loved it at the end when he was putting his hand in the air to try and distract him, didn't really expect that from him, but I like 'touches' like that, shows he's being innovative I suppose.
The only thing I did think, was he's not that quick with the jab, I do think Haye would have some joy, but I still don't know if he can punch and move for 12 rounds, let's face it, Valuev was VERY slow.
I don't know, wouldn't like to call it, Haye certainly has a chance, but Vitali is very good, and although his punches don't look that great he follows them up with momentum from his whole body, odd, don't really know anyone who punches quite the same?
Loved it at the end when he was putting his hand in the air to try and distract him, didn't really expect that from him, but I like 'touches' like that, shows he's being innovative I suppose.
The only thing I did think, was he's not that quick with the jab, I do think Haye would have some joy, but I still don't know if he can punch and move for 12 rounds, let's face it, Valuev was VERY slow.
I don't know, wouldn't like to call it, Haye certainly has a chance, but Vitali is very good, and although his punches don't look that great he follows them up with momentum from his whole body, odd, don't really know anyone who punches quite the same?
DJC said:
Similarly I cant see the reason for all the negativity against Haye. Is it just because of his flash mouth?
There is nothing wrong with his talent levels or the workload he puts in, his training camp is serious, non-flash, he doesnt live the tosser lifestyle and he takes his job very seriously. OK, his fighting style might be more flash than attrition, but then he is making use of his areas of more talent than not in movement and explosive capability.
I think quite a few people will witness something they arent quite expecting with Haye v the Klits. I will certainly back him to take one of them if not both.
I wouldn't say I'm negative about Haye, I really like the guy and admire his boxing ability but I just don't see him having an easy night against Vitali. Do I think he can win? Yes. Do I think he will win? I'm not convinced. Yes Vitali looked slow and pretty average in his last fight but he was fighting a guy who refused to throw a punch which is difficult to contend with when he relies on his timing amd counter punch ability.There is nothing wrong with his talent levels or the workload he puts in, his training camp is serious, non-flash, he doesnt live the tosser lifestyle and he takes his job very seriously. OK, his fighting style might be more flash than attrition, but then he is making use of his areas of more talent than not in movement and explosive capability.
I think quite a few people will witness something they arent quite expecting with Haye v the Klits. I will certainly back him to take one of them if not both.
I think Haye can beat Wladimir Klitschko by way of knockout if he can convince the guy to exchange punches with him but Wladimir now appears to be a safety first fighter and fires that jab of his out like a piston. If Haye can slip the jab and get to him then he's onto a winner.
dirty boy....i agree that his jab isn`t lightning but when your style is clubbing counter puncher it doesn`t really need to be.rather than outspeed a guy vitali defends more by leaning away from the shot and retaliating with a counter as the other fighter is off balance.if you think about it you would need to be more than 2x quicker than him to throw a jab and get your glove back to guard before he let one go.he tends to see your shot coming,lean back slightly and throw his ownjab while the other fellows shot is short of the target.this is magnified by the fact that he throws his jab from his waist and so it comes into your field of vision much later than if thrown from a traditional guard.this is why he doesn`t need to have a very quick jab.
lost bmw...yeah,mate i think you`re right about what is seen and not.his pawing jab tends to come when his weight is on the back foot transfering foreward.i also note the bend and flex in his legs that lets him put more leverage into straight or hook shots.imagine the weight of uppercut if he bothered to throw them.for what it`s worth i think wlad is actually the crisper /faster puncher of the two but vitali`s kickboxing background makes him one awkward sod.
djc...i don`t think there is much negativity towards haye if i`m honest.the british press are carrying on like he`s the second coming of jack dempsey!the only complaints from some quarters(me included)is that for all his big chat he talked his way into a world title fight with BOTH brothers and backed out of each fight.
nick s....he might look a bit clumsy but don`t let that fool you! he is one awkward proposition for anyone.don`t forget he`s never been beaten legitimately.chris byrd had lost every round until vitali tore his rotator cuff and lennox was behind on all the scorecards until the doctors stopped it on a cut eye.that said he is 40 next year and i believe haye will wait as long as he can to get the fight in the hopes that he gets too old.
lost bmw...yeah,mate i think you`re right about what is seen and not.his pawing jab tends to come when his weight is on the back foot transfering foreward.i also note the bend and flex in his legs that lets him put more leverage into straight or hook shots.imagine the weight of uppercut if he bothered to throw them.for what it`s worth i think wlad is actually the crisper /faster puncher of the two but vitali`s kickboxing background makes him one awkward sod.
djc...i don`t think there is much negativity towards haye if i`m honest.the british press are carrying on like he`s the second coming of jack dempsey!the only complaints from some quarters(me included)is that for all his big chat he talked his way into a world title fight with BOTH brothers and backed out of each fight.
nick s....he might look a bit clumsy but don`t let that fool you! he is one awkward proposition for anyone.don`t forget he`s never been beaten legitimately.chris byrd had lost every round until vitali tore his rotator cuff and lennox was behind on all the scorecards until the doctors stopped it on a cut eye.that said he is 40 next year and i believe haye will wait as long as he can to get the fight in the hopes that he gets too old.
Robatr0n said:
DJC said:
Similarly I cant see the reason for all the negativity against Haye. Is it just because of his flash mouth?
There is nothing wrong with his talent levels or the workload he puts in, his training camp is serious, non-flash, he doesnt live the tosser lifestyle and he takes his job very seriously. OK, his fighting style might be more flash than attrition, but then he is making use of his areas of more talent than not in movement and explosive capability.
I think quite a few people will witness something they arent quite expecting with Haye v the Klits. I will certainly back him to take one of them if not both.
I wouldn't say I'm negative about Haye, I really like the guy and admire his boxing ability but I just don't see him having an easy night against Vitali. Do I think he can win? Yes. Do I think he will win? I'm not convinced. Yes Vitali looked slow and pretty average in his last fight but he was fighting a guy who refused to throw a punch which is difficult to contend with when he relies on his timing amd counter punch ability.There is nothing wrong with his talent levels or the workload he puts in, his training camp is serious, non-flash, he doesnt live the tosser lifestyle and he takes his job very seriously. OK, his fighting style might be more flash than attrition, but then he is making use of his areas of more talent than not in movement and explosive capability.
I think quite a few people will witness something they arent quite expecting with Haye v the Klits. I will certainly back him to take one of them if not both.
I think Haye can beat Wladimir Klitschko by way of knockout if he can convince the guy to exchange punches with him but Wladimir now appears to be a safety first fighter and fires that jab of his out like a piston. If Haye can slip the jab and get to him then he's onto a winner.
tuscaneer said:
dirty boy....i agree that his jab isn`t lightning but when your style is clubbing counter puncher it doesn`t really need to be.rather than outspeed a guy vitali defends more by leaning away from the shot and retaliating with a counter as the other fighter is off balance.if you think about it you would need to be more than 2x quicker than him to throw a jab and get your glove back to guard before he let one go.he tends to see your shot coming,lean back slightly and throw his ownjab while the other fellows shot is short of the target.this is magnified by the fact that he throws his jab from his waist and so it comes into your field of vision much later than if thrown from a traditional guard.this is why he doesn`t need to have a very quick jab.
lost bmw...yeah,mate i think you`re right about what is seen and not.his pawing jab tends to come when his weight is on the back foot transfering foreward.i also note the bend and flex in his legs that lets him put more leverage into straight or hook shots.imagine the weight of uppercut if he bothered to throw them.for what it`s worth i think wlad is actually the crisper /faster puncher of the two but vitali`s kickboxing background makes him one awkward sod.
Again, agreed - it's his style that makes him look awkward but which is also what makes him effective, along with his height and reach, which shouldn't be overlooked. lost bmw...yeah,mate i think you`re right about what is seen and not.his pawing jab tends to come when his weight is on the back foot transfering foreward.i also note the bend and flex in his legs that lets him put more leverage into straight or hook shots.imagine the weight of uppercut if he bothered to throw them.for what it`s worth i think wlad is actually the crisper /faster puncher of the two but vitali`s kickboxing background makes him one awkward sod.
I used to spar one of my brother's mates - taller than me with a long reach who wasn't ever so technical or traditionally 'well schooled' but supposedly been told by the coaches that he had the hardest punch in the gym (Portsmouth ABA club I think) and I think they'd encouraged him to turn pro thinking they could train away the rough edges and use his natura ability. He too used to lean back and then counter with jab or straight right and had a similar jab though he bent his arm in towards his chest thumb in and then almost flicked it out.
It looked laughable and was easy to predict . . . but quick! He moved it fast and it didn't have far to travel so if you got cocky you could walk on to it. So even though it should never have landed, frustratingly, it did. Then with his height and lean back style, in trying to get to him there was also the risk of him suddenly changing direction and getting you with the straight shot as you were on the way in. Hardest shot I ever took was one from his overhand straight rights which I was sure had broken my jaw (not easy to have to fake no effect and carry on as if you hadn't been got when you think your 'broken'!); good distance and leverage on the straight shot too, which Vlad also has.
Haye's speed may give him an in so I'm excited to see it (if it ever happens) so not down on Haye. I think he's done a great job of moving up to heavyweight and keeping his speed and power. From what I've heard one of the best, most scientific trainees out there (ironically along with the Klitchkos their training set up is spot on in a very new age 'Eastern Block' way.) I suspect though that Vlad would be able to frustrate and control/cope with Haye and eventually catch him and there's no doubt over who has the best punch resistance.
Haye, as you rightly point out, doesn't seem to have the greatest punch resistance, but we all know he found it difficult to make CW. When he's not forcing himself to get down in weight, is there any chance a natural resistance will improve?
I don't know, just seems a body that has pushed itself to make weight will have more weaknesses than one that hasn't.
Is it worth considering that Haye's neck was 17" for Valuev and (I think - but can't find TOTT) only 16" against Enzo.
I'm not a boxer though, although I have an appreciation of nutrition and conditioning.
I don't know, just seems a body that has pushed itself to make weight will have more weaknesses than one that hasn't.
Is it worth considering that Haye's neck was 17" for Valuev and (I think - but can't find TOTT) only 16" against Enzo.
I'm not a boxer though, although I have an appreciation of nutrition and conditioning.
to a degree i take your point.if you are dehydrated there is a depletion of the fluid around the brain.not a lot, but enough to let you get rattled more easily.different people are more prone to different types of shot however.some people can take a punch square on the jaw but react badly to a cross to the side of the jaw.it rattles you in different ways.if your jawbone is pushed in slightly it can cut off(albeit momentarily)blood supply to the brain which in some preople has a worse effect than others.a cross to the jaw makes your brain move a bit like a yolk inside an egg and this again affects some people more than others.haye is prone to taking shots on the temple.he reacts quite badly to these but not so badly to chin shots.i personally feel that he is danger of being too muscled for his frame.from personal experience i tend to not get "caught cold" like khan or salita were, but when i`m overly tired i get buzzed more than when i`m fresh.is haye`s bulk going to get him more tired down the straight in a fight where he is not dictating the pace,causing him to unravel late with a big mobile hard punching heavyweight(everything valuev is not)?
dirty boy said:
Haye, as you rightly point out, doesn't seem to have the greatest punch resistance, but we all know he found it difficult to make CW. When he's not forcing himself to get down in weight, is there any chance a natural resistance will improve?
I don't know, just seems a body that has pushed itself to make weight will have more weaknesses than one that hasn't.
Is it worth considering that Haye's neck was 17" for Valuev and (I think - but can't find TOTT) only 16" against Enzo.
I'm not a boxer though, although I have an appreciation of nutrition and conditioning.
It would be interesting to see if there were any science possible around this aspect. I wonder if there are any real studies into punch resistance rather than just the well known stuff on the damage puncehs cause to the brain and so on?I don't know, just seems a body that has pushed itself to make weight will have more weaknesses than one that hasn't.
Is it worth considering that Haye's neck was 17" for Valuev and (I think - but can't find TOTT) only 16" against Enzo.
I'm not a boxer though, although I have an appreciation of nutrition and conditioning.
Dehydration and cutting do seem to have some effect which sounds only natural if your whole body/nervous system is fatigued but is it that the shots do more damage when depleted or that you're more likely to get hit by the 'big' ones that otherwise you might see coming and have the speed and tme to slip?
Many boxers - even those who don't believe in weights do train their necks but even Tyson with a 19" neck was vulnerable. Look what happens to some of the ex wrestlers and NFL guys with big necks in MMA - it doesn't stop some of them from going down from even less damaging looking punches.
I've been hit hard and 'hurt' (i.e. actual, bad, pain not really tingling or dizziness - though getting hit on the back of the neck - illegally! - does hurt like the proverbial and gave me what I can only describe as 'black' headaches, plus made me v.v. angry) but never knocked down despite broken noses, bruised jaw etc. My weight varied a lot over the years but I never boxed below 14+ stone since beyond 16 so don't know how my punch resistance did or would change at different weights. I guess it's usually more a case of a fighter moving up getting hit by heavier, bigger, harder punching opponents + their own power not having the same impact on the bigger guys who have, maybe thicker or denser bone structure etc.
Have been some good exceptions though like Manny, now, and Leonard and Hearns in the past. I think the guys whose power comes from amazing speed and excellent technique - as with David Haye - are the ones most likely to carry their punch up with them but it doesn't mean they'll add equivalently to the resistance; again poor old Tommy Hearns stands out!
As Tuscaneer notes, people get called 'chinny' when it's not always shots to the chin that do them. The temple seems to be a very underrated target given how many get scrambled from punches to it. Haye's shot on Valuev - the one that wobbled him - seemed to be on the neck. Maybe a new coaching ploy?! In the Tyson documentary film he talks about how Cus D'Amato taught him to deliberately aim for behind the head and neck of opponents so even misses/non-clean shots carried a real threat. Nice . . .
vitali klitschko has come to an agreement with haye,according to a ukranian press release.along the lines of unification is the only real challenge left for him.haye is pushing hard for wembley but must first get past that horrible spoiler ruiz.the fight will be massive wherever it is,remember after he pulled out late against wladimir the arena in germany was still full of 75000 people anyway.i think vitali should have the greater negotiating pull considering his length of reign and quality of opposition but he has said in the past that he wouldn`t mind fighting haye at wembley and this was before haye beat valuev! can`t wait for this to be agreed
in other news timothy bradley has said he wants a piece of amir khan after his most recent win.very dangerous guy for amir.any thoughts on that match up?
in other news timothy bradley has said he wants a piece of amir khan after his most recent win.very dangerous guy for amir.any thoughts on that match up?
tuscaneer said:
vitali klitschko has come to an agreement with haye,according to a ukranian press release.along the lines of unification is the only real challenge left for him.haye is pushing hard for wembley but must first get past that horrible spoiler ruiz.the fight will be massive wherever it is,remember after he pulled out late against wladimir the arena in germany was still full of 75000 people anyway.i think vitali should have the greater negotiating pull considering his length of reign and quality of opposition but he has said in the past that he wouldn`t mind fighting haye at wembley and this was before haye beat valuev! can`t wait for this to be agreed
in other news timothy bradley has said he wants a piece of amir khan after his most recent win.very dangerous guy for amir.any thoughts on that match up?
Seen Bradley fight only a few times and one of those was stopped after 3 rnds because of cuts. It should be a pretty decent fight. He had trouble catching Witter clean but that because he is so awkward, however Amir is easier to hit as he has little head movement. Bradley didn't look like he had much power so it should be a pretty good match up. I think Amir would have th beating of him though (maybe on points, or a late stoppage), especially with Roach in the corner. I've a feeling though that the public will still go on about him fighting no household names even though he's only 22 as Bradley is not that well known over here.in other news timothy bradley has said he wants a piece of amir khan after his most recent win.very dangerous guy for amir.any thoughts on that match up?
im said:
Well after watching a VERY robotic Klitschko beat a very poor Johnson on Saturday night I have to say Yes, he can beat him, and possibly even by KO.
VK must be the most one-dimensional fighter I've ever seen...Its no wonder the boxing world is crying out for a haye-type heavyweight...VK plants he feet and jab, jab, jabs away throwing the occasional big right once the opponent has been demoralised. But this appears to be his ONLY game plan. As Haye's manager said after the fight, its remarkable that all of the so-called best heavyweights in the world over the past 8 years have failed to come up with a plan to counter this!
Haye may be the first thinking/slick fighter to test VK's chin - I think he can do it - and possibly easier than most imagine.
Fingers crossed.
He's one dimensional because it's effective. Simple as that really, his style, and let's not forget his physique make him very difficult to adjust to, it's worked repeatedly, if it ain't broke don't fix it, and that's certainly the case here. VK must be the most one-dimensional fighter I've ever seen...Its no wonder the boxing world is crying out for a haye-type heavyweight...VK plants he feet and jab, jab, jabs away throwing the occasional big right once the opponent has been demoralised. But this appears to be his ONLY game plan. As Haye's manager said after the fight, its remarkable that all of the so-called best heavyweights in the world over the past 8 years have failed to come up with a plan to counter this!
Haye may be the first thinking/slick fighter to test VK's chin - I think he can do it - and possibly easier than most imagine.
Fingers crossed.
I think Haye certainly has the speed to worry Vitali, and his movement against Valuev would suggest he's willing to be patient, but he'll need to throw a lot more to win this one (assuming he beats Ruiz of course) and that becomes dangerous. Vitali has a seriously good chin on him and is good at keeping up pressure at a steady rate, something I feel Haye will struggle with, but then again, Haye almost certainly has the power to make Vitali think...assuming he can get to him without getting hit himself.
I don't like calling these types of fights, as I've not seen enough of Haye at heavyweight with a world class operator to make any judgements.
something else to consider...nobody has even rocked the guy let alone put him down.i would argue that lennox lewis punched considerably harder than david haye.of course he might ko him but i can`t see why you (im) would have any reason to think this?he certainly doesn`t have any form for being chinny
obob...agreed,not a big name so only really an option for khan as a mandatory but with so many other names about i think he might have to wait a while
obob...agreed,not a big name so only really an option for khan as a mandatory but with so many other names about i think he might have to wait a while
Edited by tuscaneer on Wednesday 16th December 10:34
mayweather is getting delicious already regarding his upcoming fight against paquiao.first off he wants a bigger tolerance in the catchweight.he wants a big ring(24 ft).he wants bigger gloves.and finally he wants olympic style steroid testing done on pac man.this piece of s
t is trying to pull a fast one just like he did against the other fella.he basically forced jmm up a couple of weights only to come in too heavy himself and paid a 6000 grand forefit.this guy will do whatever it takes to get out of this fight and if by any slim chance it happens he will try every trick in the book to try and make it an unfair fight in his favour.bigger gloves ,for fks sake.!!headguards? 14 oz pillows??this guy is terrified of getting spako by manny .maybe he could ask manny to gaffer tape one of his arms to his side to give him a bit of a leg up?wker
t is trying to pull a fast one just like he did against the other fella.he basically forced jmm up a couple of weights only to come in too heavy himself and paid a 6000 grand forefit.this guy will do whatever it takes to get out of this fight and if by any slim chance it happens he will try every trick in the book to try and make it an unfair fight in his favour.bigger gloves ,for fks sake.!!headguards? 14 oz pillows??this guy is terrified of getting spako by manny .maybe he could ask manny to gaffer tape one of his arms to his side to give him a bit of a leg up?wkertuscaneer said:
mayweather is getting delicious already regarding his upcoming fight against paquiao.first off he wants a bigger tolerance in the catchweight.he wants a big ring(24 ft).he wants bigger gloves.and finally he wants olympic style steroid testing done on pac man.this piece of st is trying to pull a fast one just like he did against the other fella.he basically forced jmm up a couple of weights only to come in too heavy himself and paid a 6000 grand forefit.this guy will do whatever it takes to get out of this fight and if by any slim chance it happens he will try every trick in the book to try and make it an unfair fight in his favour.bigger gloves ,for fks sake.!!headguards? 14 oz pillows??this guy is terrified of getting spako by manny .maybe he could ask manny to gaffer tape one of his arms to his side to give him a bit of a leg up?wker
I don't blame him getting proper drugs testing. If he's confident he's clean he needs to make sure his opponent is too.t is trying to pull a fast one just like he did against the other fella.he basically forced jmm up a couple of weights only to come in too heavy himself and paid a 6000 grand forefit.this guy will do whatever it takes to get out of this fight and if by any slim chance it happens he will try every trick in the book to try and make it an unfair fight in his favour.bigger gloves ,for fks sake.!!headguards? 14 oz pillows??this guy is terrified of getting spako by manny .maybe he could ask manny to gaffer tape one of his arms to his side to give him a bit of a leg up?wkerThe other stuff is just PBF.
I think he's asking for bigger gloves to cushion the blows Manny will be landing on him, which in turn means he'll be able to lay some leather of his own without fear of damaging his hands.
Believe it or not, I actually rate Mayweathers power but it's very seldom he feels the need to let his hands go. I think his worry is that if they have 10oz gloves, he'll damage his hands.
Pacman has apparently signed the contract so hopefully Mayweather will too!
Believe it or not, I actually rate Mayweathers power but it's very seldom he feels the need to let his hands go. I think his worry is that if they have 10oz gloves, he'll damage his hands.
Pacman has apparently signed the contract so hopefully Mayweather will too!
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