The Wattage Thread

[Banana Boy]

Sooo, I'm totally green on this whole wattage thing...

Bought a Verve Infocrank 'Classic' power meter which arrived last week, fitted it, had a bit of a play and this morning completely botched an FTP test!

https://www.strava.com/activities/676501703

My pacing at the beginning was far too high and by the time I got it under control I think I'd gone too far the other way?! (Also seems that the relationship between data recorded on the road and data recorded on the turbo is still a little off?! For some reason Strava seems to have an issue processing turbo data?! The only thing I can think of that is different to 'on the road' data is the GPS signal? - I'm having another go on Friday and have a cunning GPS relate plan...)

Based on the limited data I do have, I'm looking at a functional threshold of about 235w. On the face of it I'm OK with that. I'm 'only' 35 but weigh in at 79kgs at a height of 167.5cm - losing that 9kgs is a personal mission of mine over the winter. I completed the Tour of Cambridgeshire 132km course in 4hrs 4min and my weekend solo runs of 100km or so take me about 3hrs 20 at a relatively 'easy' pace... based on that info does an FTP of 235 sound realistic?

I have a bit of a winter training plan in mind and have ordered the power meter handbook to read.

I think now I've made the jump and investment I think I might have to take a serious look at some racing for 2017?! Work and family permitting... (more family than work but we'll see)

Any critique / advice will be gratefully received!

[upsidedownmark]

Not sure what is going on with the strava summary data, but you've done the test completely wrong

It usually looks more like:
Warmup ~10 mins
5 mins maximal effort
10 mins chill/easy
20 mins best you can hold: ftp is 95% of that 20 min average (not normalised although they should be very close).
cool down.

Important to do the 5 min clearing effort as otherwise there is too much anerobic contribution - over a real hour, the 'stored' bit doesn't make a big difference, but it will skew a 20 minute test quite a lot.

There's no question of too easy/hard, if you can lift the effort at the end, you didn't go hard enough. If you fall dramatically you went out too hard. It does take a bit of practice to do them well, and having an idea of your starting point will help a lot.

[citizenmtb]

I've read the first few pages and it seems to have a lot of well seasoned racers on PH!

I appreciate this question may not be a straight forward one but anything would be better than nothing if anyone can advise.

I took part in my first race a few weeks back at bath circuit and I was left a bit disheartened by being dropped on lap 2 and blowing my ass off for the next 35 minutes getting nowhere. Frankly, I was impressed with my stats, avg pace of 21.6mph although unfortunately currently no power meter.

My real question is, what do I need to be putting out to be able to keep hold of the pack? I know I made mistakes, I filtered to the back and made it tough on myself so there is certainly some technique to be improved.

I've done one session of under/over interval training on a watt bike and recorded 152w avg/200w normalised which seems about right when compared to strava guesstimates but I'm a bit out of my depth to understand completely.

Any advice appreciated.

[Banana Boy]

upsidedownmark said:

Not sure what is going on with the strava summary data, but you've done the test completely wrong

It usually looks more like:
Warmup ~10 mins
5 mins maximal effort
10 mins chill/easy
20 mins best you can hold: ftp is 95% of that 20 min average (not normalised although they should be very close).
cool down.

Important to do the 5 min clearing effort as otherwise there is too much anerobic contribution - over a real hour, the 'stored' bit doesn't make a big difference, but it will skew a 20 minute test quite a lot.

There's no question of too easy/hard, if you can lift the effort at the end, you didn't go hard enough. If you fall dramatically you went out too hard. It does take a bit of practice to do them well, and having an idea of your starting point will help a lot.

Wicked cheers, that the kind of clear advice I need! I'll give that a stab on Wednesday I think just because my commutes have turned out to be super relaxed this week!

My new book arrived today so that's the bedtime reading sorted...

ETA: I just realised what you mean about the warm up etc. - my Strava file doesn't include the warm up or cool down, I zero'd my 'puta at the beginning and end of the 'test' - although my warm up wasn't like yours so I will still bash out another go on Wednesday.

Edited by Banana Boy on Monday 15th August 19:36

[anonymous-user]

There are too many variables in racing to say that you need to be able to push xxx watts to be in with a shout, there are loads of tactics and accelerations during a race which will require good reactions and some sprints to keep involved. You could average 200 one race and finish in the group, another race you could average 250 and be dumped out of the back. As Odd Down has no gradient to worry about, you should be ok with around 200 for a credible finish on a good day but those hairpins really do string out the pack so I'd work on the HIIT stuff and see how you fare.

You could also try castle combe which requires a totally different style of racing and it's much easier to hide in the bunch

I cant stress it enough but track cycling over the winter is incredible prep for summer racing rather than trudging around in the cold with mudguards on pretending you're Belgian so find out when the accreditation sessions are on at Newport.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 15th August 19:49

[citizenmtb]

pablo said:

There are too many variables in racing to say that you need to be able to push xxx watts to be in with a shout, there are loads of tactics and accelerations during a race which will require good reactions and some sprints to keep involved. You could average 200 one race and finish in the group, another race you could average 250 and be dumped out of the back. As Odd Down has no gradient to worry about, you should be ok with around 200 for a credible finish on a good day but those hairpins really do string out the pack so I'd work on the HIIT stuff and see how you fare.

You could also try castle combe which requires a totally different style of racing and it's much easier to hide in the bunch

I cant stress it enough but track cycling over the winter is incredible prep for summer racing rather than trudging around in the cold with mudguards on pretending you're Belgian so find out when the accreditation sessions are on at Newport.

Edited by pablo on Monday 15th August 19:49

Thanks Pablo, appreciate the reply.

Could you elaborate on HIIT? I've no idea what it means..

I would love to try Coombe but I've not see any eligible races come up at the moment. Although I've stalled on searching for a Sportive this weekend. Haven driven coombe a lot I've always thought it would really suck to ride on a bike, but I could be wrong

Also, when you say accreditation session at Newport, do you mean the velodrome?

[anonymous-user]

HIIT is high intensity interval training, basically going really fast for a bit then really slow, it maximises the time spent in the peak training zones. There will be tons of stuff on the British cycling website.

Combe races were usually on a Thursday evening. Due to the length of the circuit and the width of the track it tends to be a more uniform race and sits those with a good steady power output. The bunch tend to remain as one too. The races are popular with sprinters though so attract a keen group. Rarely will a solo or small break stick. Bike races go the opposite way to cars too, down from quarry through camp to tower...


Yes Newport velodrome. It's basically HIIT sessions but rather than on rollers or a turbo trainer, you're on the track and doing something more enjoyable than watching a screen.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 16th August 07:32

[Matt_N]

citizenmtb said:

Thanks Pablo, appreciate the reply.

Could you elaborate on HIIT? I've no idea what it means..

I would love to try Coombe but I've not see any eligible races come up at the moment. Although I've stalled on searching for a Sportive this weekend. Haven driven coombe a lot I've always thought it would really suck to ride on a bike, but I could be wrong

Also, when you say accreditation session at Newport, do you mean the velodrome?

Guess you didn't find this one this weekend then?

http://www.sodburysportive.co.uk/

[sunnybono]

Signup up to and download trainer road. Pay the $7 a month fee and run some of their proper structured ftp tests.

Banana Boy said:

Sooo, I'm totally green on this whole wattage thing...

Bought a Verve Infocrank 'Classic' power meter which arrived last week, fitted it, had a bit of a play and this morning completely botched an FTP test!

https://www.strava.com/activities/676501703

My pacing at the beginning was far too high and by the time I got it under control I think I'd gone too far the other way?! (Also seems that the relationship between data recorded on the road and data recorded on the turbo is still a little off?! For some reason Strava seems to have an issue processing turbo data?! The only thing I can think of that is different to 'on the road' data is the GPS signal? - I'm having another go on Friday and have a cunning GPS relate plan...)

Based on the limited data I do have, I'm looking at a functional threshold of about 235w. On the face of it I'm OK with that. I'm 'only' 35 but weigh in at 79kgs at a height of 167.5cm - losing that 9kgs is a personal mission of mine over the winter. I completed the Tour of Cambridgeshire 132km course in 4hrs 4min and my weekend solo runs of 100km or so take me about 3hrs 20 at a relatively 'easy' pace... based on that info does an FTP of 235 sound realistic?

I have a bit of a winter training plan in mind and have ordered the power meter handbook to read.

I think now I've made the jump and investment I think I might have to take a serious look at some racing for 2017?! Work and family permitting... (more family than work but we'll see)

Any critique / advice will be gratefully received!

[neenaw]

sunnybono said:

Signup up to and download trainer road. Pay the $7 a month fee and run some of their proper structured ftp tests.

Banana Boy said:

Sooo, I'm totally green on this whole wattage thing...

Bought a Verve Infocrank 'Classic' power meter which arrived last week, fitted it, had a bit of a play and this morning completely botched an FTP test!

https://www.strava.com/activities/676501703

My pacing at the beginning was far too high and by the time I got it under control I think I'd gone too far the other way?! (Also seems that the relationship between data recorded on the road and data recorded on the turbo is still a little off?! For some reason Strava seems to have an issue processing turbo data?! The only thing I can think of that is different to 'on the road' data is the GPS signal? - I'm having another go on Friday and have a cunning GPS relate plan...)

Based on the limited data I do have, I'm looking at a functional threshold of about 235w. On the face of it I'm OK with that. I'm 'only' 35 but weigh in at 79kgs at a height of 167.5cm - losing that 9kgs is a personal mission of mine over the winter. I completed the Tour of Cambridgeshire 132km course in 4hrs 4min and my weekend solo runs of 100km or so take me about 3hrs 20 at a relatively 'easy' pace... based on that info does an FTP of 235 sound realistic?

I have a bit of a winter training plan in mind and have ordered the power meter handbook to read.

I think now I've made the jump and investment I think I might have to take a serious look at some racing for 2017?! Work and family permitting... (more family than work but we'll see)

Any critique / advice will be gratefully received!

This was exactly what I was going to suggest after reading the initial post.
Someone on here who's got TrainerRoad membership should be able to give you a 3 month free pass for it to try it out. It's well worth it for things like this until you get the hang of pacing yourself for FTP tests and other sessions.

[E65Ross]

neenaw said:

sunnybono said:

Signup up to and download trainer road. Pay the $7 a month fee and run some of their proper structured ftp tests.

Banana Boy said:

Sooo, I'm totally green on this whole wattage thing...

Bought a Verve Infocrank 'Classic' power meter which arrived last week, fitted it, had a bit of a play and this morning completely botched an FTP test!

https://www.strava.com/activities/676501703

My pacing at the beginning was far too high and by the time I got it under control I think I'd gone too far the other way?! (Also seems that the relationship between data recorded on the road and data recorded on the turbo is still a little off?! For some reason Strava seems to have an issue processing turbo data?! The only thing I can think of that is different to 'on the road' data is the GPS signal? - I'm having another go on Friday and have a cunning GPS relate plan...)

Based on the limited data I do have, I'm looking at a functional threshold of about 235w. On the face of it I'm OK with that. I'm 'only' 35 but weigh in at 79kgs at a height of 167.5cm - losing that 9kgs is a personal mission of mine over the winter. I completed the Tour of Cambridgeshire 132km course in 4hrs 4min and my weekend solo runs of 100km or so take me about 3hrs 20 at a relatively 'easy' pace... based on that info does an FTP of 235 sound realistic?

I have a bit of a winter training plan in mind and have ordered the power meter handbook to read.

I think now I've made the jump and investment I think I might have to take a serious look at some racing for 2017?! Work and family permitting... (more family than work but we'll see)

Any critique / advice will be gratefully received!

This was exactly what I was going to suggest after reading the initial post.
Someone on here who's got TrainerRoad membership should be able to give you a 3 month free pass for it to try it out. It's well worth it for things like this until you get the hang of pacing yourself for FTP tests and other sessions.

PM me if you're interested as I have a few referrals left, and I can get this sorted if you want.

Love TrainerRoad, it's bloody brilliant.

Cheers

[citizenmtb]

pablo said:

HIIT is high intensity interval training, basically going really fast for a bit then really slow, it maximises the time spent in the peak training zones. There will be tons of stuff on the British cycling website.

Combe races were usually on a Thursday evening. Due to the length of the circuit and the width of the track it tends to be a more uniform race and sits those with a good steady power output. The bunch tend to remain as one too. The races are popular with sprinters though so attract a keen group. Rarely will a solo or small break stick. Bike races go the opposite way to cars too, down from quarry through camp to tower...


Yes Newport velodrome. It's basically HIIT sessions but rather than on rollers or a turbo trainer, you're on the track and doing something more enjoyable than watching a screen.

Edited by pablo on Tuesday 16th August 07:32

Thanks for the concise advice, really appreciate it!

Matt_N said:

Guess you didn't find this one this weekend then?

http://www.sodburysportive.co.uk/

Sorry, slightly inebriated poor grammar in my previous post. I meant, I had stopped searching for races due to signing up to the sportive.

It is the Sodbury Sportive

[Matt_N]

citizenmtb said:

Sorry, slightly inebriated poor grammar in my previous post. I meant, I had stopped searching for races due to signing up to the sportive.

It is the Sodbury Sportive

Ah right cool.

I'm doing the 60 as my fitness still isn't up to 100 since my leg break.

[Banana Boy]

upsidedownmark said:

Not sure what is going on with the strava summary data, but you've done the test completely wrong

It usually looks more like:
Warmup ~10 mins
5 mins maximal effort
10 mins chill/easy
20 mins best you can hold: ftp is 95% of that 20 min average (not normalised although they should be very close).
cool down.

Important to do the 5 min clearing effort as otherwise there is too much anerobic contribution - over a real hour, the 'stored' bit doesn't make a big difference, but it will skew a 20 minute test quite a lot.

There's no question of too easy/hard, if you can lift the effort at the end, you didn't go hard enough. If you fall dramatically you went out too hard. It does take a bit of practice to do them well, and having an idea of your starting point will help a lot.

Well, I gave it another stab - recorded the warm ups, FTP test and cool down in one block this time and tried a GPS experiment to see if I could resolve the data issues. This involved getting a GPS signal, walking up and down the drive to record some 'movement', performing the test and then repeating the walk down the drive at the end... It made no difference at all?! Except I now had enough excess data that I could crop the activity as I did during the winter which does seem to sort it all out?! Very odd.

Anyway, the FTP - it hurt, I managed to pace it much more consistently and as far as I can see the 20 minute 'effort' gives an average power of 271w which equates to an FTP of 257w?

https://www.strava.com/activities/678887026

Right now it's all fairly meaningless to me but at least it's a starting point and it will be interesting to see how it relates to 'the real world'...

[upsidedownmark]

Looks pretty sound to me, you went out a bit hard, but that's pretty normal. If you bother with zone based training, you can now set your zones off that threshold and train appropriately.. Also plug it into your garmin and it will be able to generate numbers like intensity factor (IF) which can be a useful thing to look at on rides. IIRC you'd got the power meter book - that will give you plenty of ideas

[okgo]

You could probably get 10w more out if you paced better, but it makes little odds, as long as you know the number within a reasonable range then you're good to go.

Good starting point though.

[Banana Boy]

upsidedownmark said:

Looks pretty sound to me, you went out a bit hard, but that's pretty normal. If you bother with zone based training, you can now set your zones off that threshold and train appropriately.. Also plug it into your garmin and it will be able to generate numbers like intensity factor (IF) which can be a useful thing to look at on rides. IIRC you'd got the power meter book - that will give you plenty of ideas

okgo said:

You could probably get 10w more out if you paced better, but it makes little odds, as long as you know the number within a reasonable range then you're good to go.

Good starting point though.

Cheers, it's good to know that I'm on the right track!

I do have the Power Meter Handbook, I'm only a few pages in (been too interested in Olympic Track Cycling...) and that ain't going to change tonight - got up at 5 to do the test, rode the 27km to work and home and I still have the dog to walk and washing up to do! I'm fooked!

[okgo]

Try one in the evening, you'll probably find you can do 20w more.

Difference for me between morning and evening is HUGE.

[Rocksteadyeddie]

citizenmtb said:

I've read the first few pages and it seems to have a lot of well seasoned racers on PH!

I appreciate this question may not be a straight forward one but anything would be better than nothing if anyone can advise.

I took part in my first race a few weeks back at bath circuit and I was left a bit disheartened by being dropped on lap 2 and blowing my ass off for the next 35 minutes getting nowhere. Frankly, I was impressed with my stats, avg pace of 21.6mph although unfortunately currently no power meter.

My real question is, what do I need to be putting out to be able to keep hold of the pack? I know I made mistakes, I filtered to the back and made it tough on myself so there is certainly some technique to be improved.

I've done one session of under/over interval training on a watt bike and recorded 152w avg/200w normalised which seems about right when compared to strava guesstimates but I'm a bit out of my depth to understand completely.

Any advice appreciated.

The short answer is ride faster and longer. Racing is all about staying in the bunch (at least until you are good enough to think about getting off the front). As you will have noted the speed of the bunch ebbs and flows, as the racing is on/off, and as the terrain changes. Reading all of the various changes going on will take some time. What is important is that you don't get shelled out the back when the pace goes up, as you will find it very difficult to get back on. In other words you need the ability to stand short periods of much higher intensity after which you'll ordinarily get time to recover - hence why interval training is popular. As the standard of racing goes up so the periods of intensity lengthen in time and difficulty, and the 'recovery' time decreases.

Also think about your positioning in the bunch. You don't want to be last man when the hammer goes down unless you are good enough to go around people and bridge gaps. So drive round the circuit if you haven't raced before. Note where the climbs are, or where there is a dead turn, or where the road narrows. All of these are indictors of where it's likely to get hard.

Finally think about the structure of your riding. Be careful of too many 'junk miles', ride as hard as you can up climbs (even if you're in a group you can wait at the top), and don't stuff too much junk/beer in your gob. HTH

[E65Ross]

okgo said:

Try one in the evening, you'll probably find you can do 20w more.

Difference for me between morning and evening is HUGE.

I think the best time to do it is at a time when you do most of your training....probably.

I do 99% of my training in the morning, and if I set my FTP of 231W in a test done in the morning, I'd be training to that. If I did another test and got 240W or more, but then tried training to that in the mornings I'd likely fail a lot of sessions and not get the benefits. Probably.