cyclists, why so far from the kerb?
Discussion
Rolls said:
Not sure I'd want discs on a road bike in the alps to be honest.. - it was scary enough having brake fade on the MTB out there, where there were nice (ish) grassy areas to crash into.. Wouldn't fnacy having no brakes at 40km+ going into a hairpin bend thank you!
Horses for courses though. The chances of experiencing brake fade on my commute are much slimmer than the chances of experiencing rain and road grime! 
Out of interest though, do mechanical disc brakes fade, or is it only hydraulics?
Kermit power said:
Out of interest though, do mechanical disc brakes fade, or is it only hydraulics?
You can definitely glaze the pads, make them smoke and then experience zero retardation until you fling yourself into the nearest undergrowth, as happpened to me on an insanely downhill doing a MTB tour in Borneo.Short answer: yes!
Jimboka said:
walm said:
Not sure if serious.
Or are you a very slow pedalling lady in a bonnet?
Dead serious & not a lady in a bonnet last time I looked. Bike is not a sport or pastime for me, just the occasional ride in the country or to the shops!Or are you a very slow pedalling lady in a bonnet?
Having read around half of the pages of this thread here are a few of my own thoughts on the subject.
I have cycled for a few years now for fitness, race training and racing including road racing time trials and track racing.
This year I have covered 6523 miles so far, lots of which is done solo and some in groups with an overall average speed of 17.8mph.
My commute to work is through Cleethorpes to South Killingholme this has a few choices for the route the most direct is through town and onto the concrete A180 duel carriage way the route requires me to be on the bit of road for 3.5 miles or around 10 minuets I have had a Fiat hit me on the right hand with their wing mirror they then changed lane 3 times just to make sure I would not get the number plate. Squeezed by cars, vans, buses and lorries the worst was a car transporter passing me within 8" in heavy rain ( which I have on video may post this on the web latter). While cycling home I have (on video) a tanker lorry coming towards me no other traffic other than the car which over takes it and passes me a little too close for comfort so for a few second we where 3 a breast.
The other routes are through town and the outskirts and through the outlying villages, but have there own difficulties more junctions for traffic to pull out from parked cars at the side of the road blind entrances etc.
As per the original question regarding the position of cyclists on the road, I ride around 800mm from the kerb and further out as I approach pinch points in the road to force following traffic to slow and wait rather then run me into the kerb and a possible crash.
I do my best to help following traffic overtake me on narrow roads by moving over and waving drivers through when it's safe,
combined judgment as a cyclist and car driver.
The closer I get to work (power station near an oil refinery) the more lorries and the more left hand drive lorries I encounter some give me a little bit of room others just the right amount this is around 500mm and pass not too fast this way I get a little lift in speed for free, some even wait and go completely on the over side of the road, this gives no draft or lift for me. Hay no pleasing some people....
The worst vehicles for dirty air are the car transporters.
As a cyclist you get to know the road surface and make micro adjustment to style, speed and position to your benefit to make your position, the safest you can.
Any interaction with a vehicle is going to hurt the cyclist cars hurt or worse lorries will almost certainly kill.
All I have for protection are my senses and the split second judgments I make these are sometime made at or above my anaerobic threshold (these can be therefore questionable)
Car drivers (myself included) have steel work, crumple zones air bags seat belts etc to protect us.
So to avoid any unwanted interaction and the time and pain or worse involved in this sort of incidents please give each other some room, as much or a little bit more than you yourself would like.
I have cycled for a few years now for fitness, race training and racing including road racing time trials and track racing.
This year I have covered 6523 miles so far, lots of which is done solo and some in groups with an overall average speed of 17.8mph.
My commute to work is through Cleethorpes to South Killingholme this has a few choices for the route the most direct is through town and onto the concrete A180 duel carriage way the route requires me to be on the bit of road for 3.5 miles or around 10 minuets I have had a Fiat hit me on the right hand with their wing mirror they then changed lane 3 times just to make sure I would not get the number plate. Squeezed by cars, vans, buses and lorries the worst was a car transporter passing me within 8" in heavy rain ( which I have on video may post this on the web latter). While cycling home I have (on video) a tanker lorry coming towards me no other traffic other than the car which over takes it and passes me a little too close for comfort so for a few second we where 3 a breast.
The other routes are through town and the outskirts and through the outlying villages, but have there own difficulties more junctions for traffic to pull out from parked cars at the side of the road blind entrances etc.
As per the original question regarding the position of cyclists on the road, I ride around 800mm from the kerb and further out as I approach pinch points in the road to force following traffic to slow and wait rather then run me into the kerb and a possible crash.
I do my best to help following traffic overtake me on narrow roads by moving over and waving drivers through when it's safe,
combined judgment as a cyclist and car driver.
The closer I get to work (power station near an oil refinery) the more lorries and the more left hand drive lorries I encounter some give me a little bit of room others just the right amount this is around 500mm and pass not too fast this way I get a little lift in speed for free, some even wait and go completely on the over side of the road, this gives no draft or lift for me. Hay no pleasing some people....
The worst vehicles for dirty air are the car transporters.
As a cyclist you get to know the road surface and make micro adjustment to style, speed and position to your benefit to make your position, the safest you can.
Any interaction with a vehicle is going to hurt the cyclist cars hurt or worse lorries will almost certainly kill.
All I have for protection are my senses and the split second judgments I make these are sometime made at or above my anaerobic threshold (these can be therefore questionable)
Car drivers (myself included) have steel work, crumple zones air bags seat belts etc to protect us.
So to avoid any unwanted interaction and the time and pain or worse involved in this sort of incidents please give each other some room, as much or a little bit more than you yourself would like.
Kermit power said:
I'm going to go shopping for something with disc brakes next year when C2W comes around again.
It's one thing having rim brakes in the wet if you're riding on suburban or country rides and only do it from time to time, so cleaning the rims isn't too much hassle. Constantly cleaning the s
tty London road grime off rims and blocks whilst commuting through the winter is a different matter altogether!
I can't be arsed to clean the sodding things constantly, but on the other hand, I do like to retain some minor degree of stopping ability when Mr White Van Man decides to cut across my path coming down Clapham High Road, so it looks like n+1 is going to be some form of cyclocross bike, as I'm not doing a 30 mile round trip on a full suspension MTB on nobblies!
Change your pads to Swisstop Greens. Can't recommend them enough - Don't get half as much grey gunk on the wheels and they work in all conditions (even on dirty rims). It's one thing having rim brakes in the wet if you're riding on suburban or country rides and only do it from time to time, so cleaning the rims isn't too much hassle. Constantly cleaning the s
tty London road grime off rims and blocks whilst commuting through the winter is a different matter altogether!I can't be arsed to clean the sodding things constantly, but on the other hand, I do like to retain some minor degree of stopping ability when Mr White Van Man decides to cut across my path coming down Clapham High Road, so it looks like n+1 is going to be some form of cyclocross bike, as I'm not doing a 30 mile round trip on a full suspension MTB on nobblies!
BFG TERRANO said:
I'm an occasional cyclist but mainly car driver. I've noticed just how far from the kerb they cycle? Why? Even on good quality surfaces they are getting about a metre from the kerb. This makes passing them 1 of 2 things. You either pass to close or wait for a gap in oncoming traffic and make a wide dash for it.
Is it just me or does this bug anyone else? Or, if your a regular cyclist can you explain why?
'vehicular cycling' and making drivers pass properly rather than pushing you into the gutter Is it just me or does this bug anyone else? Or, if your a regular cyclist can you explain why?
agentnomad said:
No, Sorry, I can't comprehend why you'd be outside the white line on a dual carriageway. it's clearly good enough tarmac inside it, and you'd be 2 feet further from the traffic. I think the spirit of most cyclist-oriented views on this thread is in urban, or gutter-less country roads, where staying in would be a wheel-breaker or puncture-festival.ok, the opposite direction overtakes are probably a bit more of a concern, but most people would be inside the line again, once they'd seen it coming.
Reminds me of a Gordon Brittas quote from his hospital bed, after being run-over on a zebra crossing "but it was my right of way love" (talking to his wife, who had a sad, faraway look in her eyes that almost said, they should've done a better job.)
Suspect that if he did cycle to the left of the white line, that's all the space he would get.
Personally, I would not cycle on a road like that, not because I don't think I should but because there is too much risk of being wiped out by a moron.
Personally, I would not cycle on a road like that, not because I don't think I should but because there is too much risk of being wiped out by a moron.
Edited by otolith on Monday 15th October 18:21
Inside of the white line on the concrete road is very quickly angled down, the large drain covers are in poor condition and some ill fitting, the road is not my favourite route but quick and dirty due to the draft off the traffic (again you carn't please everyone all of the time) The other hazard is the number is lorry mud flaps (the big ones) tie down ratchets and dead animals (foxes and badgers) yes it could be a dead cyclist next time. It is my choice.....
Also had buses pull out on me as well as cars try and run me into other cars and or off the road until it changes for the better it appears to be how it is.
A change in culture and attitude needs to happen and these take years to change. If a brit wins the tour again in the next 5 years lets hope that speeds thinks up a little.
Also had buses pull out on me as well as cars try and run me into other cars and or off the road until it changes for the better it appears to be how it is.
A change in culture and attitude needs to happen and these take years to change. If a brit wins the tour again in the next 5 years lets hope that speeds thinks up a little.
Many of the perverse comments on rider's positioning probably come from the perception that a cyclist is riding in a lane cut off from other road users. Most drivers just go past cyclists without a second thought, they never view it as an overtaking manoever. This has been the norm for so long, no one challenges it. The concept that the cyclist is a road user and should be approached as they would any other vehicle just does not occur to them. It is this behaviour that created the idea of "Prime Position" or "Taking the lane", a purely defensive move designed to prevent overtaking under "iffy" circumsatnces.
I very rarely see drivers indicate when overtaking a cyclist. This reinforces the idea that to them, the cyclist is no more than a minor obstruction, easily got around with the minimum of deviation.
I very rarely see drivers indicate when overtaking a cyclist. This reinforces the idea that to them, the cyclist is no more than a minor obstruction, easily got around with the minimum of deviation.
Saddle bum said:
I very rarely see drivers indicate when overtaking a cyclist. This reinforces the idea that to them, the cyclist is no more than a minor obstruction, easily got around with the minimum of deviation.
BFG TERRANO said:
You either pass to close or wait for a gap in oncoming traffic and make a wide dash for it.
You ought to be passing them as though they were a slow moving car, horse or any other legitimate public road user. If they keep well over to the left people like you try to "pass too close" and squeeze them into the side.
The problem is that you don't view them as a legitimate road user. Which they are.
If ensuring my safety holds you up for 30 seconds, you are waiting 30 seconds - I don't care who you are or where you are going - but my life _is_ more important than 30 seconds of your time.
The two abreast thing is a non argument - you can bleat about common courtesy all you like, but I really couldn't care - if it comes to being polite or being safe then guess which one I'm going for? The majority of drivers will slow and pass the cyclists properly if the are in single file, but there might be 1 in 100 who doesn't slow and just squeezes past - the problem is not knowing when that 1 in 100 will show up - hence forcing everyone to slow down and pass properly.
I know that comes across as a bit confrontational, but from my experiences, if you don't assert yourself, bad things will happen - in no way am I saying all car drivers are bad, but when on a bike, you need to treat them like they are.
The sad thing is that in the 20,000ish miles I put in on a bike in university, I considered myself lucky to have only been knocked off my bike 3 times (with numerous other close shaves) - can you imagine if someone crashed into your car every 6,000 miles and you considered yourself lucky?
The two abreast thing is a non argument - you can bleat about common courtesy all you like, but I really couldn't care - if it comes to being polite or being safe then guess which one I'm going for? The majority of drivers will slow and pass the cyclists properly if the are in single file, but there might be 1 in 100 who doesn't slow and just squeezes past - the problem is not knowing when that 1 in 100 will show up - hence forcing everyone to slow down and pass properly.
I know that comes across as a bit confrontational, but from my experiences, if you don't assert yourself, bad things will happen - in no way am I saying all car drivers are bad, but when on a bike, you need to treat them like they are.
The sad thing is that in the 20,000ish miles I put in on a bike in university, I considered myself lucky to have only been knocked off my bike 3 times (with numerous other close shaves) - can you imagine if someone crashed into your car every 6,000 miles and you considered yourself lucky?
otolith said:
Saddle bum said:
I very rarely see drivers indicate when overtaking a cyclist. This reinforces the idea that to them, the cyclist is no more than a minor obstruction, easily got around with the minimum of deviation.
I'm with Parsnip on this one. If I can create a safe space on the road by taking a more positive position relative to the edge of the carriageway and to other road users, I'm going to do it. If you are 'stuck behind' me, live with it. It won't be for long if you possess any kind of awareness and ability when it comes to planning a proper overtake. If it really bothers you so much to be 'forced' to overtake slower moving vehicles, the simple solution is to get up earlier, and use the roads before anyone else gets onto them. I pay all of the same tax and insurance as anyone else who works for a living, and I obey the same set of traffic laws as drivers have to, so, weirdly, I kind of expect to exercise my right to use the roads in exactly the same way as drivers do, without being punished for my choice of vehicle. Would you feel it necessary to force your way past some other kind of low or zero emission vehicle if it were dawdling along? Should I not be allowed to pass a Toyota Pious too closely, maybe even knock his offside mirror with my nearside one, simply on the basis that "he hasn't paid any 'road tax'". As far as I am aware, the traffic priorities to be obeyed are the ones painted onto the road or written into law, not the ones based on the principle of "my car is much larger/faster/more expensive than your's".
Put simply, there is no one answer to the question of 'correct' position when riding on the road. I will constantly tweek my position based on the information I have at hand. If I feel the need, I will ride in the centre of a lane, but if the situation changes, and there is a wide enough margin for error, I may well move to the left of the line at the edge of the carriageway. If I take the 'secondary' position nearer the kerb to allow following traffic more space to pass, yet still feel I'm being squeezed toward my left, then I WILL move out into the 'primary' position. All of the time I will amend the way I ride based on the state of the road, and the way in which drivers treat me. Quite often, if you consider that I am 'too far out into the road', mull this over: it's probably because I have had several cars/vans squeeze past inappropriately close, and that means I've moved further out to ensure my safety.
In simple terms, if all drivers gave me the respect I KNOW I deserve, I may be more inclined to give them the respect they THINK they deserve. As I've said before, elsewhere on this forum, the answer to a lot of the 'driver v cyclist' issues IMHO, would be a statutory requirement for any learner driver to have to undergo a period of cycle training, followed by an observed ride on a bicycle before being allowed anywhere near a steering wheel. If this were to be the case, it might educate those drivers who've never ridden in traffic as to how it feels to be the most vulnerable user on any given stretch of road. More access to better cycle training is also required, in order to raise the riding standards of some of the less able cyclists we see on the roads.
I recall as a youngster being taught to ride properly on the roads by my dad, who also taught 3 members of the family to drive. I was not allowed to take my bike out onto the roads unsupervised until I had demonstrated to him that I was a competent rider, and I'll hazard a guess that his standards were tougher than the cycling proficiency test. The problem we face on the roads, as both drivers and cyclists, is that many people who ride on the roads have never received any formal training, and some of them appear to have never even heard of the Highway Code, let alone have read it.
Put simply, there is no one answer to the question of 'correct' position when riding on the road. I will constantly tweek my position based on the information I have at hand. If I feel the need, I will ride in the centre of a lane, but if the situation changes, and there is a wide enough margin for error, I may well move to the left of the line at the edge of the carriageway. If I take the 'secondary' position nearer the kerb to allow following traffic more space to pass, yet still feel I'm being squeezed toward my left, then I WILL move out into the 'primary' position. All of the time I will amend the way I ride based on the state of the road, and the way in which drivers treat me. Quite often, if you consider that I am 'too far out into the road', mull this over: it's probably because I have had several cars/vans squeeze past inappropriately close, and that means I've moved further out to ensure my safety.
In simple terms, if all drivers gave me the respect I KNOW I deserve, I may be more inclined to give them the respect they THINK they deserve. As I've said before, elsewhere on this forum, the answer to a lot of the 'driver v cyclist' issues IMHO, would be a statutory requirement for any learner driver to have to undergo a period of cycle training, followed by an observed ride on a bicycle before being allowed anywhere near a steering wheel. If this were to be the case, it might educate those drivers who've never ridden in traffic as to how it feels to be the most vulnerable user on any given stretch of road. More access to better cycle training is also required, in order to raise the riding standards of some of the less able cyclists we see on the roads.
I recall as a youngster being taught to ride properly on the roads by my dad, who also taught 3 members of the family to drive. I was not allowed to take my bike out onto the roads unsupervised until I had demonstrated to him that I was a competent rider, and I'll hazard a guess that his standards were tougher than the cycling proficiency test. The problem we face on the roads, as both drivers and cyclists, is that many people who ride on the roads have never received any formal training, and some of them appear to have never even heard of the Highway Code, let alone have read it.
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