cyclists, why so far from the kerb?
Discussion
will_ said:
TKF said:
yellowjack said:
oyster said:
DrMekon said:
Don't be so bloody ridiculous.
Cars don't need to be that far over. I keep a steady line and I don't need them to go so far over to overtake.
The militant cyclist "I know my rights!!!" helmet cam approach does nothing to help our already poor image in the public eye. We're all trying to get somewhere. No need to be a dick whilst we're doing it.
TKF said:
will_ said:
TKF said:
yellowjack said:
oyster said:
DrMekon said:
Don't be so bloody ridiculous.
Cars don't need to be that far over. I keep a steady line and I don't need them to go so far over to overtake.
The militant cyclist "I know my rights!!!" helmet cam approach does nothing to help our already poor image in the public eye. We're all trying to get somewhere. No need to be a dick whilst we're doing it.
If the overtaking car is going to have to cross the central line into the oncoming lane in any event, then there is no reason for the driver not to leave the maximum available space. He is already in the oncoming lane, presumably because it is safe to do so because there isn't oncoming traffic. So he might as well allow the cyclist the largest safety margin possible.
Or would you be happy for that car to pass that cyclist without crossing the central line at all? If so, I hope you never hit a pothole, swerve for a car nudging out of a junction or take a tumble whilst being overtaken by such a driver.
It is hardly being a dick to expect drivers to pass cyclists safely - there is nothing "militant" about that. It is being a dick if a driver expects their conveninence to trump the safety of another road user.
BaronVonVaderham said:
They'd be safer, more visible, have better visbility and be able to stop more quickly if they were on MTB's 
Serious question, why don't roadies use disc brakes? I do understand that the materials and pads etc of your current brakes are much improved but the underlying design is the same as it has been for ages i.e. bit of cable pulling a little metal arm against a spring. MTBs, motorbikes (both on and off road) and every other form of two-wheeled transport, barring extremely cheap bicycles, have long ago acknowledged that rim brakes suffer many drawbacks and weaknesses (not before MTB's evolved canti's into V brakes - why don't roadies use those? Is it because the frame is too spindly and can't cope with the stress?) and made the move to disc brakes.
The modern side pull brake, two pivots on the front, one on the back are more than adequate, providing real stopping power. Discs are too heavy and impede the ability to change a wheel quickly. They are not needed.Serious question, why don't roadies use disc brakes? I do understand that the materials and pads etc of your current brakes are much improved but the underlying design is the same as it has been for ages i.e. bit of cable pulling a little metal arm against a spring. MTBs, motorbikes (both on and off road) and every other form of two-wheeled transport, barring extremely cheap bicycles, have long ago acknowledged that rim brakes suffer many drawbacks and weaknesses (not before MTB's evolved canti's into V brakes - why don't roadies use those? Is it because the frame is too spindly and can't cope with the stress?) and made the move to disc brakes.
BaronVonVaderham said:
They'd be safer, more visible, have better visbility and be able to stop more quickly if they were on MTB's
Serious question, why don't roadies use disc brakes? I do understand that the materials and pads etc of your current brakes are much improved but the underlying design is the same as it has been for ages i.e. bit of cable pulling a little metal arm against a spring. MTBs, motorbikes (both on and off road) and every other form of two-wheeled transport, barring extremely cheap bicycles, have long ago acknowledged that rim brakes suffer many drawbacks and weaknesses (not before MTB's evolved canti's into V brakes - why don't roadies use those? Is it because the frame is too spindly and can't cope with the stress?) and made the move to disc brakes.
Two resaonsSerious question, why don't roadies use disc brakes? I do understand that the materials and pads etc of your current brakes are much improved but the underlying design is the same as it has been for ages i.e. bit of cable pulling a little metal arm against a spring. MTBs, motorbikes (both on and off road) and every other form of two-wheeled transport, barring extremely cheap bicycles, have long ago acknowledged that rim brakes suffer many drawbacks and weaknesses (not before MTB's evolved canti's into V brakes - why don't roadies use those? Is it because the frame is too spindly and can't cope with the stress?) and made the move to disc brakes.
One, the rim brakes are fine, the rim materials and design is nothing like grandma used to have, a wet steel rim was an awful braking surface, modern rims are night and day to these
Two, weight; disc rotors all that hydraulic fluid and extra cable routing, weight is the enemy.
The reason disks are so favoured for MTB's (aside from fashion) is the braking suface is less likely to coated in mud, this is rarely a problem on a road bike, including an MTB used to commute.
[quote=will_]Or would you be happy for that car to pass that cyclist without crossing the central line at all?/quote]
Why does it have to be extremes?
No, I don't think that car would be safe to pass without crossing the central line at all.
No, I don't think he needs to be that far away from the cyclist.
Somewhere in the middle is fine by me. And that's normally what cars do. And I don't angrily shout "RULE 163!!!" at them whilst shaking my fist and swerving all over the road.
Why does it have to be extremes?
No, I don't think that car would be safe to pass without crossing the central line at all.
No, I don't think he needs to be that far away from the cyclist.
Somewhere in the middle is fine by me. And that's normally what cars do. And I don't angrily shout "RULE 163!!!" at them whilst shaking my fist and swerving all over the road.
BaronVonVaderham said:
They'd be safer, more visible, have better visbility and be able to stop more quickly if they were on MTB's
Serious question, why don't roadies use disc brakes? I do understand that the materials and pads etc of your current brakes are much improved but the underlying design is the same as it has been for ages i.e. bit of cable pulling a little metal arm against a spring. MTBs, motorbikes (both on and off road) and every other form of two-wheeled transport, barring extremely cheap bicycles, have long ago acknowledged that rim brakes suffer many drawbacks and weaknesses (not before MTB's evolved canti's into V brakes - why don't roadies use those? Is it because the frame is too spindly and can't cope with the stress?) and made the move to disc brakes.
Have you ever ridden an mtb with Maguras Hydro rim brakes??Serious question, why don't roadies use disc brakes? I do understand that the materials and pads etc of your current brakes are much improved but the underlying design is the same as it has been for ages i.e. bit of cable pulling a little metal arm against a spring. MTBs, motorbikes (both on and off road) and every other form of two-wheeled transport, barring extremely cheap bicycles, have long ago acknowledged that rim brakes suffer many drawbacks and weaknesses (not before MTB's evolved canti's into V brakes - why don't roadies use those? Is it because the frame is too spindly and can't cope with the stress?) and made the move to disc brakes.
If we apply a bit of physics to the problem, the further out from the pivot you are the more leverage you have.
If you spin the wheel and grab the rim it takes considerably less power to stop than if you grab the disk.
The maguras i had were very powerful and were by far the best brakes i have ever had, much better than my hayes strokers, my Juicy's or my shimano hydro disks.
You can lock up a road bike wheel no problem if you're on the drops and really squeeze hard, as said though, most of it is down to conditions, pads ad levers.
TKF said:
Why does it have to be extremes?
No, I don't think that car would be safe to pass without crossing the central line at all.
No, I don't think he needs to be that far away from the cyclist.
Somewhere in the middle is fine by me. And that's normally what cars do. And I don't angrily shout "RULE 163!!!" at them whilst shaking my fist and swerving all over the road.
It doesn't have to be extremes - you can be a defensive cyclist without being "militant" too.No, I don't think that car would be safe to pass without crossing the central line at all.
No, I don't think he needs to be that far away from the cyclist.
Somewhere in the middle is fine by me. And that's normally what cars do. And I don't angrily shout "RULE 163!!!" at them whilst shaking my fist and swerving all over the road.
But if the overtaker is going to have to cross the central line anyway, what difference is giving the maximum space going to make to the overtaker? Only a positive one for the safety of the cyclist.
I do take your point - on some wide roads I wouldn't expect a car to give that much space if it can make a safe enough pass within its own lane. But if the space is available (either in a secondary lane on a dual carriageway, or because the overtaker has to be accross the central line anyway) then it should be used - why wouldn't it?
Saddle bum said:
The modern side pull brake, two pivots on the front, one on the back are more than adequate, providing real stopping power. Discs are too heavy and impede the ability to change a wheel quickly. They are not needed.
You can change a wheel with discs much faster than a wheel with cantis.The primary reason is weight, and possibly reticence on the part of road cyclists. In addition, in cycle road races the brakes are rarely used at all, and the existing power is adequate, so the requirement isn't really there from a competitive stand point (unlike cyclocross, DH/XC etc).
I for one am actively looking for a carbon road fork to retro-fit a cable disc to the front of my commuter bike as I'd like the additional power and lack of rim wear.
Some do exist, and look rather nice....
A question, rather than a statement of fact;
Assuming there were no white lines in that picture, would there be enough room for two cars and a bike side by side in that photo?
Without photoshopping it, my gut says not safely, but maaaaybe, in an emergency but I've been on plenty of roads where I'd be happy enough for the car to not go so far over and still pass me safely, whilst still allowing oncoming traffic, if that makes sense? I'm not encouraging it; just saying I get why it's annoying being behind a cyclist when you're in a car, and living in the real world and all that, it makes sense to help them pass us, no?
Assuming there were no white lines in that picture, would there be enough room for two cars and a bike side by side in that photo?
Without photoshopping it, my gut says not safely, but maaaaybe, in an emergency but I've been on plenty of roads where I'd be happy enough for the car to not go so far over and still pass me safely, whilst still allowing oncoming traffic, if that makes sense? I'm not encouraging it; just saying I get why it's annoying being behind a cyclist when you're in a car, and living in the real world and all that, it makes sense to help them pass us, no?
BaronVonVaderham said:
I can lock my disc brakes with one finger, and use sufficient modulation to stop extremely quickly (with or without a stoppie for attempted style points!) knowing where the break away point is for my given tyre choice, surface and body position.
You are obviously the exception to the rule with very well setup U or Canti brakes (i have the same on my BMX). Point remains that the design of these has remained largely unchanged for eons. At least you are using brakes unlike the fixie brigade of 'sui-cyclists'.
Riding position on a MTB is generally with body at about 45 deg and facing forward with head up - on a roadie or similar, body position is closer to horizontal-ish with head craned up to see forwards. Just compare the head postion height of the same rider on an MTB vs a roadie - MTB'ers head is higher up = better visibility AND more visible to ther road users.
Also, i had not seen the poster's that I quoted horrifically dangerous and knobbish posts about cycling in general, I just agree with the suitability of the machine for the job. In my view MTB's are far more suitable (safer) for commuting in large cities than any kind of slick tyred road bike. Especially with winter on the way.
I've had some near misses on my mtb due to close passes by cars almost tYou are obviously the exception to the rule with very well setup U or Canti brakes (i have the same on my BMX). Point remains that the design of these has remained largely unchanged for eons. At least you are using brakes unlike the fixie brigade of 'sui-cyclists'.
Riding position on a MTB is generally with body at about 45 deg and facing forward with head up - on a roadie or similar, body position is closer to horizontal-ish with head craned up to see forwards. Just compare the head postion height of the same rider on an MTB vs a roadie - MTB'ers head is higher up = better visibility AND more visible to ther road users.
Also, i had not seen the poster's that I quoted horrifically dangerous and knobbish posts about cycling in general, I just agree with the suitability of the machine for the job. In my view MTB's are far more suitable (safer) for commuting in large cities than any kind of slick tyred road bike. Especially with winter on the way.
tting the end of my handlebars, which in similar passing conditions, my roadie bars, being so narrow afforded more room. Now to even be able to make that statement, how fecking close were those drivers?! I do find that the more you keep over to make it easy to pass you, the more bloody idiots will pass inappropriately. In recent years, I am convinced that the wasted energy in propelling the mtb along compared to the roadie makes it clear which bikes are appropriate for which use; road bike, road. Tarmac, flat surfaces. Mtb, off road, rough surface, mud muck etc and "landing gear" suspension as an option, if you want to launch yourself off something.
An mtb is basically like putting tractor tyres on a car, and saying its safer because it is massively overtyred, and the usefulness of the rubber on the road is based on the weight of the vehicle. 225's on a mini are irresponsible in the wet, the same a slicks on an mtb are worse than standard slick tyres on a typical road profile.
shalmaneser said:
Saddle bum said:
The modern side pull brake, two pivots on the front, one on the back are more than adequate, providing real stopping power. Discs are too heavy and impede the ability to change a wheel quickly. They are not needed.
You can change a wheel with discs much faster than a wheel with cantis.The primary reason is weight, and possibly reticence on the part of road cyclists. In addition, in cycle road races the brakes are rarely used at all, and the existing power is adequate, so the requirement isn't really there from a competitive stand point (unlike cyclocross, DH/XC etc).
I for one am actively looking for a carbon road fork to retro-fit a cable disc to the front of my commuter bike as I'd like the additional power and lack of rim wear.
Some do exist, and look rather nice....
Weight is the reason. Nothing to do with reluctance on the part of riders.
Road bike producers will offer anything including discs, knowing full well somebody will buy it. Its the same for electronic shifters, what do you get for the price - not a lot.
Edited by Saddle bum on Wednesday 10th October 23:35
shalmaneser said:
Saddle bum said:
The modern side pull brake, two pivots on the front, one on the back are more than adequate, providing real stopping power. Discs are too heavy and impede the ability to change a wheel quickly. They are not needed.
You can change a wheel with discs much faster than a wheel with cantis.The primary reason is weight, and possibly reticence on the part of road cyclists. In addition, in cycle road races the brakes are rarely used at all, and the existing power is adequate, so the requirement isn't really there from a competitive stand point (unlike cyclocross, DH/XC etc).
I for one am actively looking for a carbon road fork to retro-fit a cable disc to the front of my commuter bike as I'd like the additional power and lack of rim wear.
Some do exist, and look rather nice....
Saddle bum said:
Weight is the reason (for not having discs). Nothing to do with reluctance on the part of riders.
It's not just weight though. Disc brakes are more prone to overheating on long descents, need more spokes (less aero), require stiffer forks (worse ride quality), and so on.Canyon Project 6.8 shows exactly how hard it is to produce a racing road bike with discs that works adequately.
http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.htm...
I have a "winter" drop bar bike with mechanical discs (Pompetamine Versa 11). I do like the discs for commuting, but for racing and general hooning about the place I'll stick with rim brakes for the foreseeable future.
That said I'm considering sticking a carbon road disc fork on my "fast" commuter, once they're available with non-tapered carbon steerers (i.e. not yet).
(sorry for off-topic)
HundredthIdiot said:
Saddle bum said:
Weight is the reason (for not having discs). Nothing to do with reluctance on the part of riders.
It's not just weight though. Disc brakes are more prone to overheating on long descents, need more spokes (less aero), require stiffer forks (worse ride quality), and so on.Canyon Project 6.8 shows exactly how hard it is to produce a racing road bike with discs that works adequately.
http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.htm...
I have a "winter" drop bar bike with mechanical discs (Pompetamine Versa 11). I do like the discs for commuting, but for racing and general hooning about the place I'll stick with rim brakes for the foreseeable future.
That said I'm considering sticking a carbon road disc fork on my "fast" commuter, once they're available with non-tapered carbon steerers (i.e. not yet).
(sorry for off-topic)
The reason: currently the build up of heat in carbon clinchers on long descents can cause tyres to blow off the rim.
Discs: while they will also heat up: will cause a reduction in stopping power rather than a catastrophic failure like a tyre/rim blowing out.
So ultimately discs are far safer.
The problem with current clincher wheels is the build o
to add to the O/T discussion Re: disc brakes, one of the big reasons for the lack of disc brakes on drop-bar road bikes is UCI compliance. I'm not sure if the rules have yet changed to allow disc brakes in competitive road racing, but I don't think they have. Plenty of disc braked bikes in the CycloCross Racing scene since discs were legalised in that discipline.
You may not buy your road bike to enter UCI races, but all of the technology on your bike will be the result of 'trickle-down' from the elite end of the market. Even the shape of your frame is governed by UCI rules, or otherwise we'd all be riding 'Y' framed carbon monocoques a la Chris Boardman/Lotus. For this reason, such things as disc brakes will not become popular on road bikes until the big bike and component manufacturers start developing the technologies for use by the professional peloton. If and when they do develop such things, you can be sure that the upgrade addicted MAMILs of modern cycling will soon have bought enough of the new technology to allow the rest of us to buy into it at more affordable prices.
You may not buy your road bike to enter UCI races, but all of the technology on your bike will be the result of 'trickle-down' from the elite end of the market. Even the shape of your frame is governed by UCI rules, or otherwise we'd all be riding 'Y' framed carbon monocoques a la Chris Boardman/Lotus. For this reason, such things as disc brakes will not become popular on road bikes until the big bike and component manufacturers start developing the technologies for use by the professional peloton. If and when they do develop such things, you can be sure that the upgrade addicted MAMILs of modern cycling will soon have bought enough of the new technology to allow the rest of us to buy into it at more affordable prices.
yellowjack said:
For this reason, such things as disc brakes will not become popular on road bikes until the big bike and component manufacturers start developing the technologies for use by the professional peloton.
Yes and there's plenty of incentive for the big bike and component manufacturers to actively lobby the UCI to legalise discs considering the profits to be made from flogging us all new disc compatible bikes, frames, wheels & groupsets!NitroNick said:
Discs will become popular over the next few years.
The reason: currently the build up of heat in carbon clinchers on long descents can cause tyres to blow off the rim.
Discs: while they will also heat up: will cause a reduction in stopping power rather than a catastrophic failure like a tyre/rim blowing out.
So ultimately discs are far safer.
Not necessarily,.The reason: currently the build up of heat in carbon clinchers on long descents can cause tyres to blow off the rim.
Discs: while they will also heat up: will cause a reduction in stopping power rather than a catastrophic failure like a tyre/rim blowing out.
So ultimately discs are far safer.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/road-bike-disc...
"Coming around a corner, I pulled my brakes a little harder and the levers went to the bar. I held them there. I was still accelerating. In the span of one second, I realized that a) I had no brakes, b) if I kept descending it was only going to get worse, so c) I better crash now and minimize the damage."
Now, there were some weight weenie and prototype-ish parts used, but the point is that discs are not NECESSARILY safer, they may be acceptably safe if the whole system is designed a certain way, but that may bring unacceptable compromises in other areas.
I think the biggest current problem with road disc systems is the crap ride quality/handling due to over-stiff forks. I cannot see how that can be easily resolved.
Quite frankly, people should not be using carbon clinchers to go up and down steep mountains because it just doesn't make any logical sense.
I'm going to go shopping for something with disc brakes next year when C2W comes around again.
It's one thing having rim brakes in the wet if you're riding on suburban or country rides and only do it from time to time, so cleaning the rims isn't too much hassle. Constantly cleaning the stty London road grime off rims and blocks whilst commuting through the winter is a different matter altogether!
I can't be arsed to clean the sodding things constantly, but on the other hand, I do like to retain some minor degree of stopping ability when Mr White Van Man decides to cut across my path coming down Clapham High Road, so it looks like n+1 is going to be some form of cyclocross bike, as I'm not doing a 30 mile round trip on a full suspension MTB on nobblies!
It's one thing having rim brakes in the wet if you're riding on suburban or country rides and only do it from time to time, so cleaning the rims isn't too much hassle. Constantly cleaning the s
tty London road grime off rims and blocks whilst commuting through the winter is a different matter altogether!I can't be arsed to clean the sodding things constantly, but on the other hand, I do like to retain some minor degree of stopping ability when Mr White Van Man decides to cut across my path coming down Clapham High Road, so it looks like n+1 is going to be some form of cyclocross bike, as I'm not doing a 30 mile round trip on a full suspension MTB on nobblies!
Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff