Have we become a nation of cycle haters?
Discussion
Dammit said:
No - there is no speed limit for bicycles in the UK. It's not the case that the rider can't be prosecuted, there is no offence............before shouting "you don't obey the rules" it helps if you understand what the rules are, otherwise you might look like a bit of a wally.
It's good to see that, despite there being no speed limit for bicycles, bicyclists can be jailed and banned from driving for riding recklessly, including riding too fast. This is probably better than a speed limit, as it does not have to be proved that the bicyclist was breaking a limit.http://road.cc/content/news/6442-cyclist-jailed-ca...
Not at all.
My point being that if someone in a car had mounted the curb and killed the pensioner they would probably have got off with the now standard "sun in eyes"/"car just accelerated" etc.
We are in the situation now which we used to be with drinkndriving- jurors won't convict other drivers due to "there but for tbr grace of god go I", so we see, again and again and again, drivers who kill or seriously injure peds and cyclists get off with 3 points and £60 when they should be banned for life and given a custodial sentence.
The idiot on the bike should never have done what he did and he was punished for it- and was (oddly) banned from driving as well, the irony being that if he had been driving a car he'd never have lost his licence.
My point being that if someone in a car had mounted the curb and killed the pensioner they would probably have got off with the now standard "sun in eyes"/"car just accelerated" etc.
We are in the situation now which we used to be with drinkndriving- jurors won't convict other drivers due to "there but for tbr grace of god go I", so we see, again and again and again, drivers who kill or seriously injure peds and cyclists get off with 3 points and £60 when they should be banned for life and given a custodial sentence.
The idiot on the bike should never have done what he did and he was punished for it- and was (oddly) banned from driving as well, the irony being that if he had been driving a car he'd never have lost his licence.
vsonix said:
otolith said:
vsonix said:
but the number of times that cyclists persist on using the road when there is a separate, protected cycle track running PARALLEL
Does it have priority at side roads? Is it shared with pedestrians? Is it suitable for cycling at 20mph on? If they aren't using it, it's probably because it is inferior to the road.Dammit said:
Not at all.
My point being that if someone in a car had mounted the curb and killed the pensioner they would probably have got off with the now standard "sun in eyes"/"car just accelerated" etc.
We are in the situation now which we used to be with drinkndriving- jurors won't convict other drivers due to "there but for tbr grace of god go I", so we see, again and again and again, drivers who kill or seriously injure peds and cyclists get off with 3 points and £60 when they should be banned for life and given a custodial sentence.
The idiot on the bike should never have done what he did and he was punished for it- and was (oddly) banned from driving as well, the irony being that if he had been driving a car he'd never have lost his licence.
I agree with you re sentencing in the UK. Yes accidents happen, but even when it is clear the driver is at fault the sentencing seems lenient. My point being that if someone in a car had mounted the curb and killed the pensioner they would probably have got off with the now standard "sun in eyes"/"car just accelerated" etc.
We are in the situation now which we used to be with drinkndriving- jurors won't convict other drivers due to "there but for tbr grace of god go I", so we see, again and again and again, drivers who kill or seriously injure peds and cyclists get off with 3 points and £60 when they should be banned for life and given a custodial sentence.
The idiot on the bike should never have done what he did and he was punished for it- and was (oddly) banned from driving as well, the irony being that if he had been driving a car he'd never have lost his licence.
Pit Pony said:
I have noticed that drivers are more aggressive, in the south.
I have also noticed that cyclists are also more aggressive in the south.
Having experience of cycling in Derby and on the surrounding country roads, and experience of cycling in North Miseryside, I've recently brought my "second" bike down to Hemel Hempstead where I'm living 4 nights a week for the next 5 months. After a week, it's clear that people in the south are angry. They would rather die than give way, they'd rather drive over an old infirm pensioner half way across the road, than stop for 20 seconds. This evening I was verbally abused when I attempted to cross a main road, at a give way sign, where a queue of cars were all turning left. Not one driver would leave a space for a pedestrian (me) to cross in front of them.
If there are 2 lanes going onto a roundabout, and I as a cyclist were in the lane marked straight on and left, and I was planning on going straight on, they would overtake me, on the roundabout and turn left in front of me.
This DOES NOT HAPPEN in Derby, or Liverpool, or Southport, or Stoke on Trent. The driver, would wait to see what the cyclist is going to do, watch them go straight on, and then they would turn left.
If they saw some one waiting to cross in front of them, they would let them.
Mind you I've never seen a cyclist go through a red light apart from on Road wars.
I totally agree with this. Whenever there is a thread on pistonheads or any other forum about cyclists being angry with motorists or the other way round, 9 times out of 10 it's in the south east. Also any news reports of another cyclist being killed on the road it's pretty much always in London (although casualties further north probably aren't reported in the national press). I have also noticed that cyclists are also more aggressive in the south.
Having experience of cycling in Derby and on the surrounding country roads, and experience of cycling in North Miseryside, I've recently brought my "second" bike down to Hemel Hempstead where I'm living 4 nights a week for the next 5 months. After a week, it's clear that people in the south are angry. They would rather die than give way, they'd rather drive over an old infirm pensioner half way across the road, than stop for 20 seconds. This evening I was verbally abused when I attempted to cross a main road, at a give way sign, where a queue of cars were all turning left. Not one driver would leave a space for a pedestrian (me) to cross in front of them.
If there are 2 lanes going onto a roundabout, and I as a cyclist were in the lane marked straight on and left, and I was planning on going straight on, they would overtake me, on the roundabout and turn left in front of me.
This DOES NOT HAPPEN in Derby, or Liverpool, or Southport, or Stoke on Trent. The driver, would wait to see what the cyclist is going to do, watch them go straight on, and then they would turn left.
If they saw some one waiting to cross in front of them, they would let them.
Mind you I've never seen a cyclist go through a red light apart from on Road wars.
I commute into Birmingham and my weekend routes take me through Worcestershire, West mids, Shropshire, staffordshire and occasionaly Wales and I rarely see any abuse or attitude from drivers. It does happen now and again but not often.
So I don't think we're becoming a nation of cycle haters, if anything the more people take up cycling the more tolerant people will become and maybe certain areas of the country need to relax a little
graememac said:
General agreement that the angry mob live in the South East
I'm unsure as to whether Londoners realise this, but it's been a long held belief (I'm going back 30+ years to when my dad would drive us into London to visit my grand parents) that driving in the capitol is far more aggressive than elsewhere / than it should be.Now whenever I drive in London, I see this hasn't changed, but the anger and animosity is now also shared with an alarming % of cyclists.
As an "outsider" cyclist & driver looking in, I find it easy to believe all the problems and side effects this causes.
Maybe both "sides" (and yes, I do think it is getting that way) need to wake up and calm the f
k down / grow the fk up?There's a competitive element to driving in London that seems almost unique in the country; if you live there there's a constant pressure to know more about how to get from a-b than a cabbie - and to know all the short-cuts, smart routes, dodges, queue-jumps etc, etc.
Place is a massive PITA and thoroughly unpleasant to get about in unless you have an entirely West-End existence.
Place is a massive PITA and thoroughly unpleasant to get about in unless you have an entirely West-End existence.
yellowjack said:
egor110 said:
yellowjack said:
Narrow roads are far more suitable for use by narrow vehicles than they are suitable for use by wide vehicles. Debate...
so wide roads like motorways should only be used by wide vehicles ie hgv's?
Seriously. If that is the sum total of your counter argument, quite frankly I think I'm winning this debate...
t , we'll change nothing via a forum.Fetchez la vache said:
I'm unsure as to whether Londoners realise this, but it's been a long held belief (I'm going back 30+ years to when my dad would drive us into London to visit my grand parents) that driving in the capitol is far more aggressive than elsewhere / than it should be.
Now whenever I drive in London, I see this hasn't changed, but the anger and animosity is now also shared with an alarming % of cyclists.
As an "outsider" cyclist & driver looking in, I find it easy to believe all the problems and side effects this causes.
Maybe both "sides" (and yes, I do think it is getting that way) need to wake up and calm the fk down / grow the fk up?
It's undoubtedly true that London traffic is far more aggressive, or rather I think the aggression is the result of frustration, selfishness, a sense of entitlement and a disregard for others that seem to take hold pretty much regardless of the mode of transport chosen.Now whenever I drive in London, I see this hasn't changed, but the anger and animosity is now also shared with an alarming % of cyclists.
As an "outsider" cyclist & driver looking in, I find it easy to believe all the problems and side effects this causes.
Maybe both "sides" (and yes, I do think it is getting that way) need to wake up and calm the f
k down / grow the fk up?This may be simply due to density, and congestion - certainly the roads are a much happier place during the school holidays.
I think a huge amount of the resentment, and resulting anger directed at cyclists comes from motorists who think that cyclists are "cheating", by not being held up in the interminable queues. This rather misses the point that the queue is formed, in the main, of single-occupancy motor cars.
However, this ignores the underlying physics which leads to most of the conflict- if I hit a cyclist in my 1,700kg Volvo then it's life changing injury or death time for said cyclist, however if I collide with said Volvo when on my bike then the Volvo gets, at worst, a small paint repairs worth of damage.
Therefore a fraction of a seconds inattention is not equal across both modes of transport, and it does lead to "high and mighty" cyclists shouting the odds- because often the difference between death and a near miss is vanishingly small.
The sad reality is that it is entirely possible that I will be killed on the way home by a motorist who is reading a text message on their iPhone, and if they claim that "the sun was in my eyes" they are likely to get off scot-free.
What would go a long way to levelling the playing field would be the adoption of something which we already have- presumed liability.
We have presumed liability for rear-end shunts, the car behind (unless there are exonerating factors) is considered to be at fault.
The UK is joined by Cyprus and Malta in being the only European nations not to have presumed (sometimes referred to as strict)liability.
TheInternet said:
IMO it's not aggressive, it's assertive. The occasional times it is aggressive are often when people aren't assertive.
It's exactly the same on the pavement. Basically, everyone in London is on the clock and hates being held up by others. If you have your wits about you it's actually often very courteous; it just all happens very quickly, including the 'getting annoyed with the dhead in front' bit.I disagree, the over-riding feeling is one of people placing their own wants/desires/etc above that of everyone else.
The old fashioned willingness to stand in a queue, take your turn in a fair and equitable fashion has gone out of the window, and people will claw their way over the backs of others to get to the front at any cost.
Selfishness rules the roads.
"Assertive", when the asserter is in 2,000kg of metal looks pretty aggressive to the assertee, if they are riding 8kg of metal, also.
The old fashioned willingness to stand in a queue, take your turn in a fair and equitable fashion has gone out of the window, and people will claw their way over the backs of others to get to the front at any cost.
Selfishness rules the roads.
"Assertive", when the asserter is in 2,000kg of metal looks pretty aggressive to the assertee, if they are riding 8kg of metal, also.
Dammit said:
If that chap had been driving a car on the pavement, killing that person, they'd have got 3 points and a £50 fine.
That's the main difference between how bicycle riders and motorised vehicle drivers are treated in law.
Causing death by dangerous driving..? 3 points and a £50 fine..? Pardon me, but -----> That's the main difference between how bicycle riders and motorised vehicle drivers are treated in law.
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