Have we become a nation of cycle haters?
Discussion
Fugazi said:
What about the lives that are destroyed by that momentary lapse of concentration? If you were left shattered and broken, unable to work how would you feel if the person who did it got off more or less scot free. You'd be a little more than peeved I guess. It happened to me, the guy who crushed my leg didn't even lose his job, I had a P45 a few days after the accident as it was clear I wasn't going back to work in a hurry. If you're in charge of an object, capable of life altering injuries be that a forklift truck, car, boat, aircraft, gun, gas supply etc then you better make damn sure you do don't let your attention drift else you could kill yourself or worse, somebody else all for the sake of saving a few seconds, showing off or just thinking about something other than the task in hand.
I have no idea what happen to you and while a sad event I sit here fairly certain that the person didn't deliberately set out to harm you.What one day is 3 point and a small fine fine the next is ten years, we have judges to decide what suits.
NoNeed said:
That has nothing to do with it as the act was knowingly committed.
we are talking about accidents and as far as I am aware people don't go out to kill a cyclist.
where do you draw the line? The captain of the Costa Concordia didn't set out to run his ship aground, but he did due to his actions falling below that required by somebody at his position. So as he didn't intend to kill people that makes it ok? we are talking about accidents and as far as I am aware people don't go out to kill a cyclist.
Fugazi said:
where do you draw the line? The captain of the Costa Concordia didn't set out to run his ship aground, but he did due to his actions falling below that required by somebody at his position. So as he didn't intend to kill people that makes it ok?
I have at no point said that it is OK to capsize a ship, but more to the point I have not said it's OK ti kill a cyclist either.Dammit said:
NoNeed said:
So you have never hit anyone while driving?
No, I have not- I pay attention to what I am doing. I don't believe that you have not changed a CD nor altered the radio volume or heater controls.
I don't believe you have been paying 100% attention while driving
What is one day 3 points and a small fine is life the next. When you messed with the controls in your car you got lucky.
Approximately 3 pedestrians are killed by cyclists every year according to google and In 2007, cyclist Peter Messen “ who killed a pedestrian while riding on a pavement in Cornwall at 25mph escaped with 300 hours of community service.
s
t happens, the law is not and should not be about revengeHe may not have, but his last words to a friend were literally 'watch this' and then hit me while showing off. Neither he nor the company were prosecuted by the Health and Safety executive despite an investigation, he wasn't trained for that vehicle nor was the use of the forklift part of his job but due to the volume of people on site nobody realised what he was up to. So much like other cyclists who get injured and then told 'ah well, just an accident', well it doesn't wash with me. If you drive, cycle, fly in anyway that leads to the death of somebody else then you put yourself in such a position that lead to that incident. People who run into the back of other cars and say the car in front stopped suddenly, well the gap you left wasn't enough was it.
I have had both a car and bike licence for seventeen years and driven HGV's on site in a past job, and not once have I hit anybody else, lost the back end on a tight bend or even points, more by luck than religiously keeping to the speed limits. People and cars are so intertwined that most don't realise how dangerous it can actually be. So we see people hoofing it down snow filled roads thinking the ABS and ESP will sort it out or driving over a ton on a motorway while there is torrential rain. Driving a modern car removes people from the road and insulates them from the noise, vibration and feeling. Put people back into cars with no ABS, terrible sound insulation and with 60BHP and see how well they drive then.
I have had both a car and bike licence for seventeen years and driven HGV's on site in a past job, and not once have I hit anybody else, lost the back end on a tight bend or even points, more by luck than religiously keeping to the speed limits. People and cars are so intertwined that most don't realise how dangerous it can actually be. So we see people hoofing it down snow filled roads thinking the ABS and ESP will sort it out or driving over a ton on a motorway while there is torrential rain. Driving a modern car removes people from the road and insulates them from the noise, vibration and feeling. Put people back into cars with no ABS, terrible sound insulation and with 60BHP and see how well they drive then.
NoNeed said:
Approximately 3 pedestrians are killed by cyclists every year according to google and In 2007, cyclist Peter Messen ? who killed a pedestrian while riding on a pavement in Cornwall at 25mph escaped with 300 hours of community service.
He received a one year suspended sentence as well as 300 hours of community service which is a lot more than most drivers get for killing other drivers/cyclists/peds.He also fell short of seeing what was going on around him, and reading some news reports he was riding an Apollo mountain bike, which doesn't really make out as a serious cyclist especially as he was doing 25MPH on the pavement on a bike liable to fall apart. In my experience people who would ride Apollo Mountain bikes on the footpath are also the ones who don't make the best drivers.
ETA
This lumping of everybody into drivers/cyclists is annoying me, I'm sure most people on bikes and in cars take pride in being a decent and safe cyclist/driver. It's the ones like the guy in your link, or the person in an Audi/BMW/Golf who just cut you up that reinforces the belief that all cyclists/Audi/BMW drivers are idiots and deserve death as the hundreds of decent drivers and cyclists never register in your memory.
Edited by Fugazi on Friday 25th July 23:17
Fugazi said:
He may not have, but his last words to a friend were literally 'watch this' and then hit me while showing off. Neither he nor the company were prosecuted by the Health and Safety executive despite an investigation, he wasn't trained for that vehicle nor was the use of the forklift part of his job but due to the volume of people on site nobody realised what he was up to. So much like other cyclists who get injured and then told 'ah well, just an accident', well it doesn't wash with me. If you drive, cycle, fly in anyway that leads to the death of somebody else then you put yourself in such a position that lead to that incident. People who run into the back of other cars and say the car in front stopped suddenly, well the gap you left wasn't enough was it.
I have had both a car and bike licence for seventeen years and driven HGV's on site in a past job, and not once have I hit anybody else, lost the back end on a tight bend or even points, more by luck than religiously keeping to the speed limits. People and cars are so intertwined that most don't realise how dangerous it can actually be. So we see people hoofing it down snow filled roads thinking the ABS and ESP will sort it out or driving over a ton on a motorway while there is torrential rain. Driving a modern car removes people from the road and insulates them from the noise, vibration and feeling. Put people back into cars with no ABS, terrible sound insulation and with 60BHP and see how well they drive then.
Your first paragraph makes me feel sad and I hope you are now OK, your second I totally agree with.I have had both a car and bike licence for seventeen years and driven HGV's on site in a past job, and not once have I hit anybody else, lost the back end on a tight bend or even points, more by luck than religiously keeping to the speed limits. People and cars are so intertwined that most don't realise how dangerous it can actually be. So we see people hoofing it down snow filled roads thinking the ABS and ESP will sort it out or driving over a ton on a motorway while there is torrential rain. Driving a modern car removes people from the road and insulates them from the noise, vibration and feeling. Put people back into cars with no ABS, terrible sound insulation and with 60BHP and see how well they drive then.
and now I'm off to bed.
Dammit said:
monamimate said:
Where are these figures taken from?
Daily empirical evidence does not support such a figure...
Here you go: https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/laws-whos-brea...Daily empirical evidence does not support such a figure...
NoNeed said:
Your first paragraph makes me feel sad and I hope you are now OK, your second I totally agree with.
and now I'm off to bed.
I'm mostly fine now, it's been nearly 14 years and now I'm off to bed.
the leg's an inch shorter and a bit more bent. It's partly the reason I cycle. I used to run a lot and did some marathons but that stopped all that. Cant swim in any other stroke than something akin to a drowning frog as the stresses on my ankle when I kick out, hurt, a lot. So for a long time I didn't do much, then I hit 14 stone and decided to try cycling. No more leg pain and it helps a lot. So when I see people doing stupid things for the sake of getting a car length ahead I just wish they'd realise that it's so easy to get it wrong and end up with their world falling apart.NoNeed said:
So you have never changed a CD or radio station while driving?
Christ, man. This is not the point.Almost everyone has a moment of inattention at some point or other. Probably several times a day. Most often, they don't lead to 'incidents' because there's time and space to react appropriately. I had one today, emerging from Frimley railway station. I engaged 3rd gear instead of first, and 'stalled' (not the engine, but in purely speed terms) across the road. Traffic was approaching from my right, but I sorted the problem and got well out of the way before any hint of a problem. My momentary inattention led to a mistake (incorrect gear for the conditions) and it was MY FAULT. Had I been driving recklessly, or taken a risk and pulled out across a smaller gap in traffic, the possibility of causing a collision was very real. But I'd waited for a decent gap before moving off, so built time and space into my driving plan to accommodate my mistake.
Your 'sneeze' analogy (a b
ks excuse if ever there was one, right up alongside 'there was a wasp in my car') falls flat on it's arse when you consider that anyone incapacitated by a sneeze, who was driving with proper regard to hazards and the unfolding situation on the road ahead, should still be able to bring their vehicle safely under control without hitting anything or anyone. It's basics. Safe spacing, due care, consideration for other road users. Call it what you like, but there is no reasonable excuse for anyone to be driving into the back of another LEGITIMATE ROAD USER simply because they 'didn't notice them'.It needs to be treated seriously, because the effects of a collision between car and bike ARE more serious than one between two cars (where all other factors are similar). If a car fails to cede priority to another car on approach to a roundabout, chances are, the resulting collision yields some bent metal, a small financial penalty (the insurance excess) and maybe some genuine MINOR injuries or some 'pie in the sky' whiplash. I got hit (knocked from my bike) by a van in February. Broken scapula, and suspected internal injuries meant a fortune was spent on my treatment. Full road closure, Air Ambulance, road ambulance, several Police units, A&E resuscitation department, scanner and X-Ray time, radiographers, radiologists, trauma consultants, nurses - the whole nine yards. All that money and valuable hospital bed time/space WASTED because some t
t in a white van either didn't look, or failed to comprehend/process what his eyes saw. For the sake of a second, and having that 'second look', he instantaneously consigned me to five months (and counting) of pain, discomfort, immobility, and nerve damage. SMIDSY just ain't gonna cover it. EVER. If your hazard perception and planning skills are poor, get the feckin' bus, and stay away from the edge when you walk on the footway.I witnessed a similar collision to mine whilst driving my wife to work. A cyclist heading for his exit off a roundabout, and clearly and correctly positioned and signalling so, crashed into a minibus that simply drove into his path. Fortunately for the cyclist, it was 'going to work time' for a lot of medical staff (including my wife) and within seconds he was surrounded by a team of skilled professionals while waiting for the ambulance. Anyone attending A&E that day was in for a longer wait though. Because the chap who the minibus driver had knocked off his bike was a senior consultant in? Yup. You guessed it! The A&E department of the hospital he'd been cycling to work at. Now I had seen and registered the presence of this cyclist from three cars back in the queue to join the roundabout. So had the driver of the car ahead, who recognised him as one of her colleagues. So how come the bus driver didn't see the same brightly attired cyclist? Same as always, cyclist is seen, and dismissed as 'no danger', while the driver is looking for a gap in motorised traffic. If the cyclist happens to be in that gap between other motor vehicles, it's pot luck whether he'll register on the driver's 'radar' and be afforded the same respect as other motors. The attitude of non-cycling drivers needs to be changed. If some halfwits need to be 'made an example of' to achieve that, so be it. Learn to be a better driver, and the odds are it won't be you getting banned and/or jailed due to your own ignorance/arrogance.
And to answer the question. Yes. Of course I've changed channel on the radio whilst driving. I just assessed the situation and chose a 'low hazard' section of road to do it. I even swapped CDs once, but I tend to do that at a red traffic light, with no gear engaged and the parking brake applied. I also let my phone ring out, then stop at the next layby, or 'safe and legal' location to return the call, rather than answer it while driving. Maybe you believe me, maybe you don't. I couldn't care less, but road safety is important to me. It might make me the 'odd one out' but I believe safety ought to be important to everyone who uses the road.
Crazy, me.
Absolutely barking mad, mental.
NoNeed said:
Why change my words? were the real ones harming you?
I don't believe that you have not changed a CD nor altered the radio volume or heater controls.
I don't believe you have been paying 100% attention while driving
st happens, the law is not and should not be about revenge
You changed the subject to something totally outside what we were discussing- a common debating tactic when on the ropes.I don't believe that you have not changed a CD nor altered the radio volume or heater controls.
I don't believe you have been paying 100% attention while driving
s
t happens, the law is not and should not be about revengeOf course I've changed channels on the radio, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is - despite your protestations - your belief that you shouldn't have to take responsibility for your own actions when driving a car because you don't want to.
Grow up, grow a pair, and never, ever get in a car again until you work out that it is you, the operator of the vehicle, that is responsible for what happens to it when under your control.
You are, quite literally, unbelievable - and I suspect you'd sing a different song if someone ran you over because they weren't paying attention.
Dammit said:
You changed the subject to something totally outside what we were discussing- a common debating tactic when on the ropes.
Of course I've changed channels on the radio, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is - despite your protestations - your belief that you shouldn't have to take responsibility for your own actions when driving a car because you don't want to.
Grow up, grow a pair, and never, ever get in a car again until you work out that it is you, the operator of the vehicle, that is responsible for what happens to it when under your control.
You are, quite literally, unbelievable - and I suspect you'd sing a different song if someone ran you over because they weren't paying attention.
I have been knocked over by a car aged 8 and guess what, it was my fault. I ran out from between cars, luckily it was onky the entrance to a car park so the car was going slow. Of course some would blame my parents for their poor supervision, but either way it wasn't the drivers fault as it could be said that his quick reaction prevented it from being a lot worse.Of course I've changed channels on the radio, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, which is - despite your protestations - your belief that you shouldn't have to take responsibility for your own actions when driving a car because you don't want to.
Grow up, grow a pair, and never, ever get in a car again until you work out that it is you, the operator of the vehicle, that is responsible for what happens to it when under your control.
You are, quite literally, unbelievable - and I suspect you'd sing a different song if someone ran you over because they weren't paying attention.
I had a nasty looking bruise on my leg and a lump on my head to remind me of how stupid I was.
Your default position of the driver is always wrong is what is stupid, saying that cyclist should not take any responsibilty as car drivers should see them is stupid and questioning a debating method when all you have is insults now that is really stupid.
Edited by NoNeed on Saturday 26th July 20:55
I've never, once, said that it's always the drivers fault. Once again you are trying to change the discussion to suit you- I suggest you stop it.
My point is that if you are in charge of a vehicle you should be responsible for your actions - your position is that sneezing is an adequate defence for killing someone.
Your charming anecdote about running out in front of a car is totally meaningless in terms of the point in play.
Are you going to point to a mountain lion behind me next?
My point is that if you are in charge of a vehicle you should be responsible for your actions - your position is that sneezing is an adequate defence for killing someone.
Your charming anecdote about running out in front of a car is totally meaningless in terms of the point in play.
Are you going to point to a mountain lion behind me next?
Dammit said:
I've never, once, said that it's always the drivers fault. Once again you are trying to change the discussion to suit you- I suggest you stop it.
My point is that if you are in charge of a vehicle you should be responsible for your actions - your position is that sneezing is an adequate defence for killing someone.
Your charming anecdote about running out in front of a car is totally meaningless in terms of the point in play.
Are you going to point to a mountain lion behind me next?
I haven't tried to change any discussion, not at all. And an involuntary natural act that you are powerless to stop could well be the actual cause of an accident.My point is that if you are in charge of a vehicle you should be responsible for your actions - your position is that sneezing is an adequate defence for killing someone.
Your charming anecdote about running out in front of a car is totally meaningless in terms of the point in play.
Are you going to point to a mountain lion behind me next?
But like I was saying, there is a responsibility on cyclists to make themselves seen, a failure to use lights at night is one I come across quite often. Then there are the other distraction I mentioned such as radio tuning that even you admit to.
Normal people doing normal things in a perfectly normal way do not deserve to have their lives ruined on the basis that you want revenge, that is just daft.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=...
I've had this exact same conversation on another thread, and in my opinion, there are way too many apologists for st driving on pistonheads.
I've had this exact same conversation on another thread, and in my opinion, there are way too many apologists for s
t driving on pistonheads.NoNeed said:
I haven't tried to change any discussion, not at all. And an involuntary natural act that you are powerless to stop could well be the actual cause of an accident.
But like I was saying, there is a responsibility on cyclists to make themselves seen, a failure to use lights at night is one I come across quite often. Then there are the other distraction I mentioned such as radio tuning that even you admit to.
Normal people doing normal things in a perfectly normal way do not deserve to have their lives ruined on the basis that you want revenge, that is just daft.
Normal people doing normal things in a perfectly normal way do not generally need to be in fear of their lives due to other people's negligence.But like I was saying, there is a responsibility on cyclists to make themselves seen, a failure to use lights at night is one I come across quite often. Then there are the other distraction I mentioned such as radio tuning that even you admit to.
Normal people doing normal things in a perfectly normal way do not deserve to have their lives ruined on the basis that you want revenge, that is just daft.
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