Starting to think there is no point in trying to educate?

Starting to think there is no point in trying to educate?

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Slaav

Original Poster:

4,240 posts

209 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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Two very sorry episodes but the answer is in a John Niven book!

Queuing at the downhill lights in Regents park waiting to turn right at the Mosque and out if the park (if you know it) and a cyclist decided that he didn't want to Lose his momentum at the red light!

So (I've ridden the circuit many times) at approx. 23/24mph, he screams 'hey! Hey! Hey!' Coming to the very red light as a lady had almost finished crossing the road and was soon to be crossing his path. She was visibly startled and rattled as he flew past her and right through the red light with no hint of slowing.... Utter pr4t so I hit the horn (wrong I know) whereby I got the bird! All other cyclists did stop.

Roll on a couple of days and I'm out with my neighbour on our bikes for a 35 mile pootle averaging around 14.5 mph. Needless to say, I'm generally on a one man crusade to change the perception of drivers and always acknowledge people waiting or giving way etc with often exaggerated waves and thumbs up. I would say the gestures are generally acknowledged with a wave around 25-30% of the time, if not more.

On the above pootle, we were two abreast chatting but obviously pulling in to single file as and when any car came close or there was any issue of an easy overtake. I promise we are really well behaved (normally)!

So, slight loud engine noise from way behind and as I'm drifting into single file, we get the full on horn... Not a little 'beep beep' but a 'get out of my way horn'. I know this even more from what the pr1ck does next.

He roars his engine and proceeds with a stupidly close pass (oncoming traffic was tight to centre line but nothing was going to stop this moron.) so, unfortunately, the normally mild mannered and polite companion proceeded to give the Churchill solute!

Red rag, meet Bull! Hard braking and he waits for us without getting out - thank god.

So I sidle up alongside and start by apologising for the gesture but explained why he got it. He wasn't having any of it. I stayed 100% calm and tried apologising again but explained why cyclist generally don't like close passes! especially on country roads with ropey verges etc.

Apparently he didn't want to tell me what he did for a living when I informed him he was a little mistaken on the law and Highway Code as he would have no choice but to escalate things. In summary, he came out with every possible cliche and a few new ones but I especially liked these two:

"It is illegal to ride two abreast unless overtaking" and
"Who do I think I am holding up a car which is also illegal"

He particularly didn't like it when I replied that I was confident that "I probably pay more 'road tax' than him" when he came out with all our favourite little rant!

His final comments revolved around me needing a slap if I didn't stop being cheeky by not listening and taking his advice on board. I found this particularly galling as had been very (surprisingly for me smile) polite and let him hang himself so to speak.

It was at this point I suggested he follow through with his threat - and am ashamed for doing so - by suggesting he was also a totally unreasonable pr1ck! His reaction - he drives off giving the coffee beans shake!

Moral of this dull post - can't we all just 'be nice' to each other? There are to55ers on roads and bikes but fighting or trying to educate each other simply doesn't seem to work frown





TwistingMyMelon

6,385 posts

204 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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You cant argue with idiots, they will lower you down to their level and then win on experience

I have given up on educating people, I sometimes suggest things to good mates/family that is it

Instead I channel the energy in protecting myself and trying to avoid all areas of conflict and possible accidents

Type R Tom

3,859 posts

148 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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I was once riding along minding my own business in lane 2 of a dual carriageway overtaking cars queuing in lane 1 (was approaching a roundabout turning right) when suddenly some girl in a heap of a Ford Ka shouted something out about road tax.

I was tempted to turn round and give her a lesson in “road tax” and that I pay far more than her, I also felt like taking the keys out of her car and throwing them in the river nearby but in the end thought better off it.

I was absolutely flabbergasted that someone felt so strong and anti-cyclist to shout something to someone minding their own business, annoyed me for ages that.

Kell

1,708 posts

207 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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There is literally no point in trying to educate anyone on anything when it comes to their driving and/or cycling.

Driver to cyclist, cyclist to cyclist, cyclist to motorist, motorist to motorist, it doesn't matter who cricises who, it instantly gets back up of the person being criticised. Even if they are in the wrong.

And yet, you can almost guarantee that if they were both pushing trolleys around a supermarket and one almost mumped into the other, they'd both apologise and say "no, go on, after you".

It just seems to be something about being on the road.

80sMatchbox

3,891 posts

175 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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I had a woman hurl abuse at me as I had moved out of the cycle lane before a mini roundabout, to take the prime position.(after checking it was clear).

I thought about it afterwards... How can I educate someone when the road markings are suggesting that I should be on the side of the road? We all have a good idea why I might have been moving out of the painted cycle lane, but to her I was just being a dick.

The only way to avoid these incident is just to get out of bed earlier and hence have less chance of riding with traffic. smile

benny.c

3,472 posts

206 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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Is this kind of behaviour a South East thing? I never have any issues like this riding in the North West (mainly The Wirral and N Wales).

mikecassie

608 posts

158 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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benny.c said:
Is this kind of behaviour a South East thing? I never have any issues like this riding in the North West (mainly The Wirral and N Wales).
Nope it happens everywhere. I live in the North East of Scotland and get plenty morons/numpties on the road when I'm out. I try to be polite when out, but twice on one ride I had to take avoiding action when other road users were overtaking and driving towards me! One of them was an truck overtaking a tractor and trailer! That was the biggest scare I've had when out on the road, unfortunately I didn't get his reg or name of owner as I was more interested in getting slowed down enough to take to the grass verge.
I really think there is no patience left these days from other road users and a few seconds delay cannot be allowed to happen whatever the possible outcome to themselves and other road users.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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Good examples of why cyclists get a bad name and why drivers come across as pricks.

If these two types of people didn't exist then everything would work much better.

You come across a good role model for cyclist... Thanking people and pulling in to a single file to allow cars to pass.

CoolC

4,213 posts

213 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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benny.c said:
Is this kind of behaviour a South East thing? I never have any issues like this riding in the North West (mainly The Wirral and N Wales).
Not necessarily, on our Sunday club ride in a rural Lincolnshire market town, a group of us are waiting in the road to turn right. Plum driving in the opposite direction shouts "get out of the road" at us.

He wasn't held up, we were waiting for him, he wasn't inconvenienced in any way shape or form but felt the need to wind down the window to shout abuse confused

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
It isn't your job to educate, and efforts in that direction won't be appreciated. And, in case your mate didn't know, calling someone a wker (I assume this is what you mean by a "Churchill salute") is starting a fight.

I just do what I can to make myself safer - a lid and, more importantly IMO, a dayglo top.

Dammit

3,790 posts

207 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg174.pdf

"PPE should be used as a last resort. Wherever there are risks to health and safety that cannot be adequately controlled in other ways"

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
Dammit said:
"PPE should be used as a last resort. Wherever there are risks to health and safety that cannot be adequately controlled in other ways"
You are quite welcome to have "I was right" carved on your headstone.

(actually, I don't believe you are any more).

Slaav

Original Poster:

4,240 posts

209 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
grumbledoak said:
It isn't your job to educate, and efforts in that direction won't be appreciated. And, in case your mate didn't know, calling someone a wker (I assume this is what you mean by a "Churchill salute") is starting a fight.

I just do what I can to make myself safer - a lid and, more importantly IMO, a dayglo top.
One can try to 'educate' by example and then when your female mild mannered companion sticks two fingers at someone, I find the best approach is to start with an apology smile this simple action so often disarms someone (normally the aggressor funnily enough) that it is possible to get a word in!

Education can take many forms.... And the way I normally attempt it - which I have tried to explain - is IMHO worth attempting!

We may disagree on this point but I am happy to keep trying to set a good example.

And does anybody know the Niven book I mean? smile

Type R Tom

3,859 posts

148 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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I sometime wonder if making people take 10 hours of compulsory cycle training before you begin driving lessons would help. Obviously wouldn’t do anything about people with a licence but it would slowly filter through.

I don’t know the solution but what I’m sure of is that 6 odd years of cycling before I got my driving licence made me a better driver.

Dammit

3,790 posts

207 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
Trolling to a degree, but: with the advent of electric cars the power delivery can be very closely metered.

Therefore, all cars are limited to 2 watts/kg or your proven FTP, whichever is higher.

You have to test once a month, and upload your ride file.

This does mean that Strava would then have to update the limiter in your car, but hey- they seem to be taking over the world anyway.

This would mean that if you wanted to have a powerful car you'd need to earn it.

At a stroke we reduce congestion, fatness related disease, and increase (probably rather dramatically) the number of cyclists, and therefore knowledge of how the other half lives.

NoNeed

15,137 posts

199 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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Type R Tom said:
I sometime wonder if making people take 10 hours of compulsory cycle training before you begin driving lessons would help. Obviously wouldn’t do anything about people with a licence but it would slowly filter through.

I don’t know the solution but what I’m sure of is that 6 odd years of cycling before I got my driving licence made me a better driver.
Cycling should be on the school curriculum, physical education and road craft being taught all at the same time.

Rich_W

12,548 posts

211 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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NoNeed said:
Cycling should be on the school curriculum, physical education and road craft being taught all at the same time.
And yet they teach road craft to Learner drivers. And "generally" learners are more sensible/aware around cyclists than those driving for a number of years IME. So once again you want to blame the bike rider rolleyes when it's the person in the 1 and half ton fully airbagged metal box that should be the one exercising some responsibility for their actions. Waiting 3 fking seconds, pass sensibly, instead of feeling EVERYONE should get out their way.

I'll come round your house, start waving a running chain saw about on a rope. Maybe near your loved ones. Well all cyclists are the same aren't they? So presumably everyone without a lethal weapon being used is equal?

After all it'll be THEIR fault if they get injured. That's pretty much the argument you're trying to justify. And guess what it's fking retarded rolleyes

NoNeed

15,137 posts

199 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
Rich_W said:
NoNeed said:
Cycling should be on the school curriculum, physical education and road craft being taught all at the same time.
And yet they teach road craft to Learner drivers. And "generally" learners are more sensible/aware around cyclists than those driving for a number of years IME. So once again you want to blame the bike rider rolleyes when it's the person in the 1 and half ton fully airbagged metal box that should be the one exercising some responsibility for their actions. Waiting 3 fking seconds, pass sensibly, instead of feeling EVERYONE should get out their way.

I'll come round your house, start waving a running chain saw about on a rope. Maybe near your loved ones. Well all cyclists are the same aren't they? So presumably everyone without a lethal weapon being used is equal?

After all it'll be THEIR fault if they get injured. That's pretty much the argument you're trying to justify. And guess what it's fking retarded rolleyes
Roads are dangerous places, people have to achieve a minimum standard to drive a car on them or a motorbike even one that is not even as fast as some modern bicycles, it makes perfect sense to ensure everybody that uses roads has a good understanding of them and he dangers they possess.

It would also promote a healthy lifestyle that our children need. It may even get a few of them away from games consoles.



Have you considered anger management? I have re-read the above statement and I can't for the life of me see how it is in anyway objectionable.


Just realised you are not the person I addressed my post to which make me wonder even more why you would worry about me agreeing with a fellow forum memeber.

yellowjack

17,065 posts

165 months

Monday 28th July 2014
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I'm absolutely certain that there's no point in trying to educate the mobs of morons roaming the roads in cars, vans and lorries. Attitudes are so entrenched that you'd be better off signing up geological samples as blood donors.

I regularly drive a short 40mph dual carriageway. Lots of riders cycle the same road. It's on a commuter route, so it makes plenty of sense for these riders to be there, and early on, there's ample space for everyone. Hell, after 0700hrs, the delays at the roundabouts at either end mean that there's unequivocally NO POINT WHATSOEVER in rushing to overtake, because the cyclist will almost certainly filter past you through standing traffic anyway.

Well, before about 7am, there's some real benefit to overtaking cyclists, so I do it. Properly. Full all-round observation, signal, move fully into lane 2, then back into lane 1 when well beyond the biker. In short, a full on masterclass in 'how to pass a cyclist safely'. And then what do I see in my mirrors? Yup, the 'usual suspects' squeezing past, the allergy to crossing white lines, which then causes problems for cars behind them, who cannot see the cyclist so early, and every subsequent car seems to pass closer and closer. It's scary just how ignorant/stupid some of these muppets are, but other than trying to set a good example I don't see how I can have a hand in educating these retards.

jimbop1

2,441 posts

203 months

Monday 28th July 2014
quotequote all
Rich_W said:
And yet they teach road craft to Learner drivers. And "generally" learners are more sensible/aware around cyclists than those driving for a number of years IME. So once again you want to blame the bike rider rolleyes when it's the person in the 1 and half ton fully airbagged metal box that should be the one exercising some responsibility for their actions. Waiting 3 fking seconds, pass sensibly, instead of feeling EVERYONE should get out their way.

I'll come round your house, start waving a running chain saw about on a rope. Maybe near your loved ones. Well all cyclists are the same aren't they? So presumably everyone without a lethal weapon being used is equal?

After all it'll be THEIR fault if they get injured. That's pretty much the argument you're trying to justify. And guess what it's fking retarded rolleyes
And once again you're making out as though the cyclist can do no wrong. It's needs to be addressed on both sides.

You really must be one of these angry cyclists we come across occasionally.. Riding everywhere with a point to prove. rolleyes