Starting to think there is no point in trying to educate?
Discussion
yellowjack said:
Are you for real?
You're arguing for the sake of it in another thread too, and here you are shooting your mouth off before giving proper thought to what you are saying.
FACT. The Department For Transport 'standard driving test' is very much the BEGINNING of a lifetime of learning for drivers. Or at least that was what was drummed into me when I passed. It (1) should ALWAYS be considered as being a grade of "ABSOLUTE MINIMUM". From the moment you first get the basic controls explained to you, you should be constantly seeking knowledge and self improvement. No-one knows it all, and those who think they do are the most dangerous drivers out there. I've been driving for 23 years, and cycling for over 35. I've driven vehicles from EVERY license category, and passed tests in all but one (bus). Whilst I consider myself to be of 'well above average' competence, I also recognise that there is still room for improvement.
(2) Don't presume to lecture me about 'trained, licensed drivers' versus 'untrained, unlicensed cyclists'. Especially not in this little corner of the internet, where you should realise that almost EVERY cyclist you interact with will be a FULLY LICENSED DRIVER as well.
Another FACT. Serious accidents, and the road closures and delays that result from them are overwhelmingly caused solely by these so called "educated, trained and... ...competent" drivers failing to share space with one another. When was the last time two lanes of a busy motorway had to be coned off for the recovery of a 'multiple bicycle' crash??? When did you last see a flatbed recovery truck have to fight its way through miles of stationery bicycles to reach a broken down bicycle causing the tailbacks??? This is the truth that flies in the face of the anti-cycling brigade's bilious rhetoric. Delays are seldom caused by bicycles or their riders. When they are, they are almost always VERY BRIEF delays, and are more to do with poor road design and poor driving than they are by poor cycling, and even when poor cycling is the cause, it seldom amounts to a significant time delay. You will, on the other hand, if you use motorised road transport to any degree, spend a fairly significant chunk of your life sat in a tin box GOING NOWHERE. Sometimes it'll be 'sheer volume of traffic' (often code for 'incompetent drivers failing to cooperate effectively at junctions), but often it'll be utterly retarded idiots who have failed to meet even the most basic of competence tests, whether that be failure to check basic things like fluid levels and tyre pressures resulting in breakdowns, or an inability to judge safe distances between vehicles resulting in collisions. Note: NOT 'accidents' that are "just one of those things", but collisions caused either by INCOMPETENCE or WILLFUL DISREGARD for the rules of the road and the safety of other human beings.
Back, though to addressing your point. Which was a response to my description of how an incompetent (yet licensed) moron fails to show proper regard for a cyclist when overtaking. How is it that these "educated, trained and competent" drivers cannot be relied upon to pass another road user properly, despite the driver ahead demonstrating EXACTLY how it should be done. And why was I tooted at this morning, for NOT passing a cyclist? I was applying the highway code guidance, and holding back until the cyclist was past two closely spaced 'keep left' islands and a roundabout. I intended to pass the cyclist as soon as I judged it to be 'safe and reasonable' to do so. The driver behind me was almost purple with rage, to the point where he moved out to overtake, before he realised the two islands were what prevented me from doing the same. Explain to me why any "reasonably competent" driver would demonstrate driving skills and an attitude which fall so far below the standard expected thereof? My other problem this morning which involved a cyclist? A small van ahead of me passed a cyclist without indicating, and so close to the biker, that my opportunity to see the cyclist was reduced to the point that it was necessary to slow to match the speed of the bike and begin to plan my overtake from that lower speed. Far better, I would suggest, would have been for the van to indicate right, and move out in good time, which would have given the cyclist far more space, and me an earlier sight of the bike and a lot more distance in which to plan my overtake. The van driver (that's a professional/vocational driver too by the way, someone who should be BETTER at it than the general populace, by rights) wasn't delayed one little bit, but the knock on effect cost me, and those behind me, between five and ten seconds, FFS
While I'm 'going off on one' (and this is all I will say on the matter, no further correspondence will be entered into) I too have seen many instances of "poor cycling". This, though, in and of itself, does not mean that the cyclists in question were 'untrained', uneducated' or 'incompetent'. It simply means that, much like many, many car drivers, they demonstrate poor judgement and a lack of patience from time to time. Like the lazy idiot in Portsmouth on Saturday who turned and rode directly at me on a one way street, and swore at me when I pointed out his folly. But he's no different to the BMW driver I encountered at Frimley Park Hospital who, when challenged about driving the wrong way around the (one way) drop off zone replied (sarcastically) with "It's OK. I'm only going one way". Then there are the cyclists who hop onto and off of footways to get around delays. Surely that's something only cyclists do? Errr, no, actually. I've witnessed several cars do this recently to avoid delays of mere seconds behind cars waiting to turn right. And cars parking fully on footways, obstructing them completely. I've never seen a bike do that. What about red lights? Surely only cyclists ignore them? Nope. I've seen many, many of your "educated, trained and competent" drivers doing that too.
(3) We've had it repeated over and over again on this Pedal Powered forum, and over in General Gassing too - "Idiots are idiots. It makes not a jot of difference what they are riding or driving". But too many ABSOLUTE F**KING RETARDS still like to draw 'battle lines' between "drivers" and "cyclists" as if they are two distinct species. Now, be a good chap, and either stop with the deliberately argumentative generalisations, and enter into an informed debate on the subject, or, if you cannot manage that, just run along and play with the rest of the dullards...
Eloquently put, yellow jack. Just a couple of issues though.You're arguing for the sake of it in another thread too, and here you are shooting your mouth off before giving proper thought to what you are saying.
FACT. The Department For Transport 'standard driving test' is very much the BEGINNING of a lifetime of learning for drivers. Or at least that was what was drummed into me when I passed. It (1) should ALWAYS be considered as being a grade of "ABSOLUTE MINIMUM". From the moment you first get the basic controls explained to you, you should be constantly seeking knowledge and self improvement. No-one knows it all, and those who think they do are the most dangerous drivers out there. I've been driving for 23 years, and cycling for over 35. I've driven vehicles from EVERY license category, and passed tests in all but one (bus). Whilst I consider myself to be of 'well above average' competence, I also recognise that there is still room for improvement.
(2) Don't presume to lecture me about 'trained, licensed drivers' versus 'untrained, unlicensed cyclists'. Especially not in this little corner of the internet, where you should realise that almost EVERY cyclist you interact with will be a FULLY LICENSED DRIVER as well.
Another FACT. Serious accidents, and the road closures and delays that result from them are overwhelmingly caused solely by these so called "educated, trained and... ...competent" drivers failing to share space with one another. When was the last time two lanes of a busy motorway had to be coned off for the recovery of a 'multiple bicycle' crash??? When did you last see a flatbed recovery truck have to fight its way through miles of stationery bicycles to reach a broken down bicycle causing the tailbacks??? This is the truth that flies in the face of the anti-cycling brigade's bilious rhetoric. Delays are seldom caused by bicycles or their riders. When they are, they are almost always VERY BRIEF delays, and are more to do with poor road design and poor driving than they are by poor cycling, and even when poor cycling is the cause, it seldom amounts to a significant time delay. You will, on the other hand, if you use motorised road transport to any degree, spend a fairly significant chunk of your life sat in a tin box GOING NOWHERE. Sometimes it'll be 'sheer volume of traffic' (often code for 'incompetent drivers failing to cooperate effectively at junctions), but often it'll be utterly retarded idiots who have failed to meet even the most basic of competence tests, whether that be failure to check basic things like fluid levels and tyre pressures resulting in breakdowns, or an inability to judge safe distances between vehicles resulting in collisions. Note: NOT 'accidents' that are "just one of those things", but collisions caused either by INCOMPETENCE or WILLFUL DISREGARD for the rules of the road and the safety of other human beings.
Back, though to addressing your point. Which was a response to my description of how an incompetent (yet licensed) moron fails to show proper regard for a cyclist when overtaking. How is it that these "educated, trained and competent" drivers cannot be relied upon to pass another road user properly, despite the driver ahead demonstrating EXACTLY how it should be done. And why was I tooted at this morning, for NOT passing a cyclist? I was applying the highway code guidance, and holding back until the cyclist was past two closely spaced 'keep left' islands and a roundabout. I intended to pass the cyclist as soon as I judged it to be 'safe and reasonable' to do so. The driver behind me was almost purple with rage, to the point where he moved out to overtake, before he realised the two islands were what prevented me from doing the same. Explain to me why any "reasonably competent" driver would demonstrate driving skills and an attitude which fall so far below the standard expected thereof? My other problem this morning which involved a cyclist? A small van ahead of me passed a cyclist without indicating, and so close to the biker, that my opportunity to see the cyclist was reduced to the point that it was necessary to slow to match the speed of the bike and begin to plan my overtake from that lower speed. Far better, I would suggest, would have been for the van to indicate right, and move out in good time, which would have given the cyclist far more space, and me an earlier sight of the bike and a lot more distance in which to plan my overtake. The van driver (that's a professional/vocational driver too by the way, someone who should be BETTER at it than the general populace, by rights) wasn't delayed one little bit, but the knock on effect cost me, and those behind me, between five and ten seconds, FFS
While I'm 'going off on one' (and this is all I will say on the matter, no further correspondence will be entered into) I too have seen many instances of "poor cycling". This, though, in and of itself, does not mean that the cyclists in question were 'untrained', uneducated' or 'incompetent'. It simply means that, much like many, many car drivers, they demonstrate poor judgement and a lack of patience from time to time. Like the lazy idiot in Portsmouth on Saturday who turned and rode directly at me on a one way street, and swore at me when I pointed out his folly. But he's no different to the BMW driver I encountered at Frimley Park Hospital who, when challenged about driving the wrong way around the (one way) drop off zone replied (sarcastically) with "It's OK. I'm only going one way". Then there are the cyclists who hop onto and off of footways to get around delays. Surely that's something only cyclists do? Errr, no, actually. I've witnessed several cars do this recently to avoid delays of mere seconds behind cars waiting to turn right. And cars parking fully on footways, obstructing them completely. I've never seen a bike do that. What about red lights? Surely only cyclists ignore them? Nope. I've seen many, many of your "educated, trained and competent" drivers doing that too.
(3) We've had it repeated over and over again on this Pedal Powered forum, and over in General Gassing too - "Idiots are idiots. It makes not a jot of difference what they are riding or driving". But too many ABSOLUTE F**KING RETARDS still like to draw 'battle lines' between "drivers" and "cyclists" as if they are two distinct species. Now, be a good chap, and either stop with the deliberately argumentative generalisations, and enter into an informed debate on the subject, or, if you cannot manage that, just run along and play with the rest of the dullards...
1. "Should" is the operative word there, so many consider that the high peak of their driving ability. As an aside it's disappointing that a number of driving instructer cars seem to be driven so badly. Often it's so casually that it appears not to be a lesson. But even if it's the instructors wife / husband etc driving they're a 1.5ton advert for the driving school and need to act as such.
2 on here it's safe to assume that most cyclists also have a driving licence. Out there though.... the worst cyclist demonstrate little, if any, knowledge of how things work on the road. Sadly the ones who need educating the most are the ones least likely to bother with it.
3) Yes, a thousand times, yes.
Over in Wilts people are a bit more laid back , 80% of the drivers are great, 18% are just a bit thick/impatient/poor drivers but OK and 2% are psychos/knobs/don't give a fck
On group rides we try and avoid busy roads, 15 of us went through Swindon the other day in club kit and we had abuse shouted at us, but we were trying to be as considerate as possible, we were cruising @ 20mph down a 40mph road and one driver went nuts at us because she was held up for about 30 seconds, whilst we did a charity ride!
I always say thanks to cars that have to wait behind me
Having said that I am quite quick and experienced , if I was slower and held my own less on the road people would pass closer/take the piss
I wish people who shouted stuff would slow down and say it clearly, so you can actually hear the insult!! There is always that awkward meeting when a car shouts something then gets caught in temporary traffic lights a mile up the road, when you filter past....
Ironically women I find now to be just as /more aggressive than men on the roads and not just when I am cycling, some blow their top so easily!
On the plus side I often get people who wave back if I say thanks, Ive had bikers pull up along side me and high five me and a car full of birds all cheer me on and blow me kisses!
On group rides we try and avoid busy roads, 15 of us went through Swindon the other day in club kit and we had abuse shouted at us, but we were trying to be as considerate as possible, we were cruising @ 20mph down a 40mph road and one driver went nuts at us because she was held up for about 30 seconds, whilst we did a charity ride!
I always say thanks to cars that have to wait behind me
Having said that I am quite quick and experienced , if I was slower and held my own less on the road people would pass closer/take the piss
I wish people who shouted stuff would slow down and say it clearly, so you can actually hear the insult!! There is always that awkward meeting when a car shouts something then gets caught in temporary traffic lights a mile up the road, when you filter past....
Ironically women I find now to be just as /more aggressive than men on the roads and not just when I am cycling, some blow their top so easily!
On the plus side I often get people who wave back if I say thanks, Ive had bikers pull up along side me and high five me and a car full of birds all cheer me on and blow me kisses!
jimbop1 said:
I don't understand what the problem is.
None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes.
What difference will that make to me? On every commute I have to be aware of cars driving badly, which will greatly inconvenience me should it come to trading paint, but I've NEVER been inconvenienced or placed under any threat of danger, no matter how slight, by a cyclist. Never. Not in 37 years of driving.None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes.
So cyclists can or can not change their attitude or underpants or do whatever they want to do, it won't affect me in any way shape or form whatsoever.
But car drivers, please, can you stop disregarding lane markings... or can you indicate... or get in the right lane... or stop driving so bloody slowly when in front of me... and stop using the roads when I do and stop clogging them up... and I don't mind you going through the red lights, I honestly don't, but can you please go when they turn green and stop texting?... and so on?
BGarside said:
I can see a day when cyclists are essentially forced off the entire road network, no doubt to much celebration from the morass of self-centered 'you don't pay road tax' drivers.
I see the opposite. There has been a massive shift towards cycling over the last few year, and commuting etc has become much more socially acceptable. People will continue to be encouraged to ride and it will continue to grow. I think cycling is still on an upward trend. I work in a small office of 7. I was the only one to cycle a few years back. There is now another lad who has taken to cycling 2/3 times a week, and another who gets the train and rides from the station once or twice a week. Their habits have changed, and others will continue to follow.
heebeegeetee said:
jimbop1 said:
I don't understand what the problem is.
None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes.
What difference will that make to me? On every commute I have to be aware of cars driving badly, which will greatly inconvenience me should it come to trading paint, but I've NEVER been inconvenienced or placed under any threat of danger, no matter how slight, by a cyclist. Never. Not in 37 years of driving.None of my posts have been hatred towards cyclists or putting the blame all on cyclists. I've simply stated that both sides (cyclists and drivers) need to change their attitudes.
So cyclists can or can not change their attitude or underpants or do whatever they want to do, it won't affect me in any way shape or form whatsoever.
But car drivers, please, can you stop disregarding lane markings... or can you indicate... or get in the right lane... or stop driving so bloody slowly when in front of me... and stop using the roads when I do and stop clogging them up... and I don't mind you going through the red lights, I honestly don't, but can you please go when they turn green and stop texting?... and so on?
Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff