Full carbon road bike for 400 quid. What could go wrong?
Discussion
Unfortunately the science doesn't back up that that perception. But hey ho, keep believing, Will!
An 85kg rider will go up a 5km/10% incline approx. 8 seconds quicker with a top of the line, 1500g wheelset than that same rider on a 2000g training/budget wheelset.
8 whole seconds over 5km.......
One thing holds true.
More expensive wheels make your wallet lighter.
An 85kg rider will go up a 5km/10% incline approx. 8 seconds quicker with a top of the line, 1500g wheelset than that same rider on a 2000g training/budget wheelset.
8 whole seconds over 5km.......
One thing holds true.
More expensive wheels make your wallet lighter.
Edited by Barchettaman on Wednesday 17th June 21:52
Barchettaman said:
Unfortunately the science doesn't back up that that perception. But hey ho, keep believing, Will!
An 85kg rider will go up a 5km/10% incline approx. 8 seconds quicker with a top of the line, 1500g wheelset than that same rider on a 2000g training/budget wheelset.
8 whole seconds over 5km.......
One thing holds true.
More expensive wheels make your wallet lighter.
Go back and read what I said: An 85kg rider will go up a 5km/10% incline approx. 8 seconds quicker with a top of the line, 1500g wheelset than that same rider on a 2000g training/budget wheelset.
8 whole seconds over 5km.......
One thing holds true.
More expensive wheels make your wallet lighter.
Mr Will said:
Unless you want the bike to feel more lively and fun. It won't make a significant difference to your speed, but a lighter set of wheels can make a bike significantly more enjoyable.
A set of £150 quid wheels can transform the feel of a bike. That's money well spent in my book.Edited by Mr Will on Thursday 18th June 12:05
Its not just weight though, its stiffness and reliability why you upgrade wheels on wheels that come with bikes
On my Wilier the Miche wheels that came with were OK, but I could feel them flex when climbing hard, then when really going for it, I snapped a couple of spokes
Replaced with Fulcrum 5s, climbing performance and times went up, bike no longer felt like it was buckling under me, plus no broken spokes in a year.
They also weigh 2-300g less, but the stiffness and reliability were more important to me.
Loads of short brutal 14-20% climbs near me on poor roads, that really highlight poor wheels when you push on out of the saddle. I would notice poor wheels less if on longer shallower climbs
On my Wilier the Miche wheels that came with were OK, but I could feel them flex when climbing hard, then when really going for it, I snapped a couple of spokes
Replaced with Fulcrum 5s, climbing performance and times went up, bike no longer felt like it was buckling under me, plus no broken spokes in a year.
They also weigh 2-300g less, but the stiffness and reliability were more important to me.
Loads of short brutal 14-20% climbs near me on poor roads, that really highlight poor wheels when you push on out of the saddle. I would notice poor wheels less if on longer shallower climbs
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Thursday 18th June 11:41
Interesting.
What stiffness did you feel improved? Torsional, radial or lateral?
You have to view the whole wheel and bike as a system.
Here are some of the factors that affect what you might be ´feeling´:
-Axle diameter and thickness
-Spoke count
-Number of spoke crossings
-Spoke thickness
-Spoke material
-Spoke type (j-bend or straight pull)
-Rim depth
-Rim width
-Rim material
-Fork leg stiffness and steerer tube diameter
-Chainstay and seatstay design
-Dropout alignment
And that´s before we even start thinking about tyre type and tyre pressure!
As you can see, there is more than meets the eye. Calling a more expensive wheel “stiff” or a less expensive wheel “not stiff enough” is inaccurate.
One more thing to think about. When Poertner was at Zipp, he tested various wheels on an Instron machine.The machine works by driving a crossbar up or down at a very controlled rate, in the center of the cross-bar is a load cell and a gripper, or a pusher (anvil) which either stretch or crush the object being tested. An Instron can be used to test the strength and stiffness of most anything provided you have clever engineers to build the fixturing.
Zipp was trying to get riders on to carbon wheel for Paris-Roubaix, and was surprised to find that the 32 spoke aluminum wheels they traditionally rode at Roubaix were actually radially *stiffer* than most of the deeper carbon wheels. The data that pointed to the fact that the conventional wisdom of an entire generation of cyclists, mechanics and even industry engineers was just generally plain wrong.
Perception and received wisdom are dangerous things.
What stiffness did you feel improved? Torsional, radial or lateral?
You have to view the whole wheel and bike as a system.
Here are some of the factors that affect what you might be ´feeling´:
-Axle diameter and thickness
-Spoke count
-Number of spoke crossings
-Spoke thickness
-Spoke material
-Spoke type (j-bend or straight pull)
-Rim depth
-Rim width
-Rim material
-Fork leg stiffness and steerer tube diameter
-Chainstay and seatstay design
-Dropout alignment
And that´s before we even start thinking about tyre type and tyre pressure!
As you can see, there is more than meets the eye. Calling a more expensive wheel “stiff” or a less expensive wheel “not stiff enough” is inaccurate.
One more thing to think about. When Poertner was at Zipp, he tested various wheels on an Instron machine.The machine works by driving a crossbar up or down at a very controlled rate, in the center of the cross-bar is a load cell and a gripper, or a pusher (anvil) which either stretch or crush the object being tested. An Instron can be used to test the strength and stiffness of most anything provided you have clever engineers to build the fixturing.
Zipp was trying to get riders on to carbon wheel for Paris-Roubaix, and was surprised to find that the 32 spoke aluminum wheels they traditionally rode at Roubaix were actually radially *stiffer* than most of the deeper carbon wheels. The data that pointed to the fact that the conventional wisdom of an entire generation of cyclists, mechanics and even industry engineers was just generally plain wrong.
Perception and received wisdom are dangerous things.
Barchettaman said:
Interesting.
What stiffness did you feel improved? Torsional, radial or lateral?
You have to view the whole wheel and bike as a system.
Here are some of the factors that affect what you might be ´feeling´:
-Axle diameter and thickness
-Spoke count
-Number of spoke crossings
-Spoke thickness
-Spoke material
-Spoke type (j-bend or straight pull)
-Rim depth
-Rim width
-Rim material
-Fork leg stiffness and steerer tube diameter
-Chainstay and seatstay design
-Dropout alignment
And that´s before we even start thinking about tyre type and tyre pressure!
As you can see, there is more than meets the eye. Calling a more expensive wheel “stiff” or a less expensive wheel “not stiff enough” is inaccurate.
One more thing to think about. When Poertner was at Zipp, he tested various wheels on an Instron machine.The machine works by driving a crossbar up or down at a very controlled rate, in the center of the cross-bar is a load cell and a gripper, or a pusher (anvil) which either stretch or crush the object being tested. An Instron can be used to test the strength and stiffness of most anything provided you have clever engineers to build the fixturing.
Zipp was trying to get riders on to carbon wheel for Paris-Roubaix, and was surprised to find that the 32 spoke aluminum wheels they traditionally rode at Roubaix were actually radially *stiffer* than most of the deeper carbon wheels. The data that pointed to the fact that the conventional wisdom of an entire generation of cyclists, mechanics and even industry engineers was just generally plain wrong.
Perception and received wisdom are dangerous things.
Interesting and relevant , but I think you are over thinking it a bit, I'm pretty handy on short brutal climbs and I was simply breaking spokes on two sets of wheels that have come with bikes I purchased when going for it, one was winning our club hill climb competition . Replacing them with superior models stopped the spokes breaking and to my opinion they felt stiffer and aided power transfer when really pushing myself out the saddle, this might be only aided me for a few seconds , but I won the hill climb by a few seconds.What stiffness did you feel improved? Torsional, radial or lateral?
You have to view the whole wheel and bike as a system.
Here are some of the factors that affect what you might be ´feeling´:
-Axle diameter and thickness
-Spoke count
-Number of spoke crossings
-Spoke thickness
-Spoke material
-Spoke type (j-bend or straight pull)
-Rim depth
-Rim width
-Rim material
-Fork leg stiffness and steerer tube diameter
-Chainstay and seatstay design
-Dropout alignment
And that´s before we even start thinking about tyre type and tyre pressure!
As you can see, there is more than meets the eye. Calling a more expensive wheel “stiff” or a less expensive wheel “not stiff enough” is inaccurate.
One more thing to think about. When Poertner was at Zipp, he tested various wheels on an Instron machine.The machine works by driving a crossbar up or down at a very controlled rate, in the center of the cross-bar is a load cell and a gripper, or a pusher (anvil) which either stretch or crush the object being tested. An Instron can be used to test the strength and stiffness of most anything provided you have clever engineers to build the fixturing.
Zipp was trying to get riders on to carbon wheel for Paris-Roubaix, and was surprised to find that the 32 spoke aluminum wheels they traditionally rode at Roubaix were actually radially *stiffer* than most of the deeper carbon wheels. The data that pointed to the fact that the conventional wisdom of an entire generation of cyclists, mechanics and even industry engineers was just generally plain wrong.
Perception and received wisdom are dangerous things.
I could really feel the difference between cheap under £90 Miche wheels and £240 Fulcrum 5s when climbing . I now have a set of £500 American Classics, I can't feel the difference climbing between them and the Fulcrums.
Type R Tom said:
Back on half price again, £400
Dropped me in it with the OH but mine being delivered on Tuesday hopefully 
A shame that ALL my local stores don't have stock & you have to swipe your Nectar card in store, can't use it on-line (I have £240 on mine) 
Just a few basic questions, used to do a lot of MTB'ing but haven't ridden for years, if I can get my Shimano SPD pedals off my MTB will they do for now as I have road shoes with matching cleats? If not, what pedals are recommended? Are the threads L/H'd?
Why do a lot of people have winter bikes, I gather it's to protect their prized main bike but in what way? Coming from MTB'ing I'm used to bikes getting filthy & wet, are road bikes not as well protected against the elements?
Will upgrade the brake blocks when it arrives, will probably leave anything else for now & see how I get on, not ridden a road bike for over 15yrs!
Edited by LordHaveMurci on Monday 17th August 09:27
MTB SPDs will be fine so get a set of them on. As for the winter bike thing, I think mostly people just don't like the increased cleaning and maintenance that comes with winter - so they prefer to have a bike they care less about and so clean it less etc... Just use and abuse it throughout winter really. And you have the benefit of being able to fit it with guards and just leave them on so it's a full time wet weather/winter bike. I make do with one roadie and just put up with a bit more cleaning/re-lubing in winter 
LordHaveMurci said:
Type R Tom said:
Back on half price again, £400
Dropped me in it with the OH but mine being delivered on Tuesday hopefully A shame that ALL my local stores don't have stock & you have to swipe your Nectar card in store, can't use it on-line (I have £240 on mine) Just a few basic questions, used to do a lot of MTB'ing but haven't ridden for years, if I can get my Shimano SPD pedals off my MTB will they do for now as I have road shoes with matching cleats? If not, what pedals are recommended? Are the threads L/H'd?
Why do a lot of people have winter bikes, I gather it's to protect their prized main bike but in what way? Coming from MTB'ing I'm used to bikes getting filthy & wet, are road bikes not as well protected against the elements?
Will upgrade the brake blocks when it arrives, will probably leave anything else for now & see how I get on, not ridden a road bike for over 15yrs!
Edited by LordHaveMurci on Monday 17th August 09:27
- Can fit wider tyres more suited to poor conditions
- As above and mudguards, no chance on my carbon bike
- Can run different gear ratios as I live to spin more on steep climbs once the temp gets under 5 degrees
- Fit cheaper more robust components, for example the wheels on my "summer bike" were £500, the wheels on my Winter bike are £130. Have found the rain and salt to wreck bearings
- Winter bike is steel frame, had some nasty crashes on it and no damage, carbon frame would have been written off
- My winter bike is a "longer" frame so handles more predictably in slippery conditions. My summer bike is quite twitchy , more so in wind and rain.
Mine arrived today, built it this evening with no issues (a rubber washer & 2 plastic bits spare though?!) & taken it for a short test ride which went well.
Need to get some pedals & shoes ASAP as can't get the SPD's off my Scalpel & can't ride with the flats supplied! Any suggestions?
Have some brake blocks on order as per earlier recommendations.
Tempted to buy another for my OH/daughter to share...
Need to get some pedals & shoes ASAP as can't get the SPD's off my Scalpel & can't ride with the flats supplied! Any suggestions?
Have some brake blocks on order as per earlier recommendations.
Tempted to buy another for my OH/daughter to share...
Edited by LordHaveMurci on Tuesday 18th August 21:54
Did my 1st ride on sunday on the supplied flat pedals (SPD shoes were too small ), 20-25 fairly flat miles.
Gears need some fine tuning, sounds like it's between gears when in higher gears, is that a cable needs tightening or something? Have swapped front pads, made a big difference, will be doing rears this week.
Bike felt good, not saddle sore & no leg ache so bonus
Just trying to hide additional purchases from the OH as she's not chuffed about the bike purchase anyway!
), 20-25 fairly flat miles.Gears need some fine tuning, sounds like it's between gears when in higher gears, is that a cable needs tightening or something? Have swapped front pads, made a big difference, will be doing rears this week.
Bike felt good, not saddle sore & no leg ache so bonus
Just trying to hide additional purchases from the OH as she's not chuffed about the bike purchase anyway!
TwistingMyMelon said:
Its not just weight though, its stiffness and reliability why you upgrade wheels on wheels that come with bikes
On my Wilier the Miche wheels that came with were OK, but I could feel them flex when climbing hard, then when really going for it, I snapped a couple of spokes
Replaced with Fulcrum 5s, climbing performance and times went up, bike no longer felt like it was buckling under me, plus no broken spokes in a year.
They also weigh 2-300g less, but the stiffness and reliability were more important to me.
Loads of short brutal 14-20% climbs near me on poor roads, that really highlight poor wheels when you push on out of the saddle. I would notice poor wheels less if on longer shallower climbs
Not all stock wheels are bad quality and have enough spokes so if one goes then you can atleast ride home, which you can't do on most factory wheels like fulcrum 5 ect. On my Wilier the Miche wheels that came with were OK, but I could feel them flex when climbing hard, then when really going for it, I snapped a couple of spokes
Replaced with Fulcrum 5s, climbing performance and times went up, bike no longer felt like it was buckling under me, plus no broken spokes in a year.
They also weigh 2-300g less, but the stiffness and reliability were more important to me.
Loads of short brutal 14-20% climbs near me on poor roads, that really highlight poor wheels when you push on out of the saddle. I would notice poor wheels less if on longer shallower climbs
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Thursday 18th June 11:41
The axis wheels which come on specialized bikes seem very decent. My friend got a '14 allez with the axis 32 spoke shallow rim. He is 95kg and pretty strong and the wheels have been totally reliable. Likewise a workmate who has a btwin budget bike with their stock wheels.
thiscocks said:
Not all stock wheels are bad quality and have enough spokes so if one goes then you can atleast ride home, which you can't do on most factory wheels like fulcrum 5 ect.
The axis wheels which come on specialized bikes seem very decent. My friend got a '14 allez with the axis 32 spoke shallow rim. He is 95kg and pretty strong and the wheels have been totally reliable. Likewise a workmate who has a btwin budget bike with their stock wheels.
Some so-called upgrade wheelsets are a pretty piss-poor 'improvement' over standard wheels to be fair.The axis wheels which come on specialized bikes seem very decent. My friend got a '14 allez with the axis 32 spoke shallow rim. He is 95kg and pretty strong and the wheels have been totally reliable. Likewise a workmate who has a btwin budget bike with their stock wheels.
Last week's Cycling Weekly featured a "Best Mid Range Wheels" group test. Only one of the five wheelsets featured would save me any weight at all, and even then it was about 12 GRAMS!!! The cost of this incredible weight saving? To you, sir, a snip at £500
I know it's about more than just the weight, but out in the real world weight is the only accurately measurable method of camparison available to me. All the subjective, empirical reviews are nice to read, but the reviewers are only human, they are different shapes, sizes,and weights to me, and they'll have preconceptions and favourite brands no matter how open-minded they try to be. There's absolutely no way I'm rushing off to buy the latest £42 per gram weight saving wheels on the say-so of some magazine staffer, especially when...
a) I'm totally happy with the 'stock' wheels that came with my bike
and
b) That £500 is half the budget for a decent hard tail MTB which I need far more than a set of spangly new hoops.
So it matters not that those £500 Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels, at 1708 grams, score a 10/10 on a magazine test. The Bontrager Race wheels already fitted to my bike are round and true, even after 2,600+ hard miles, so they'll be staying put so long as they remain serviceable.
So we cannot interest Sir in a lovely set of Easton EA70 SLs then? Well no, actually. At £550 for a 111 gram weight increase, Sir will be keeping his wallet firmly in his pocket, thanks all the same...
...I'm not doing-down all upgrades. I fully understand that ditching 2.3kgs of cheap wheels in favour of 1.7kgs of aftermarket "upgrade" wheels might make sense, but I've never been one for upgrading bits on my bikes, because I don't have chunks of cash lying around 'spare' and even if I did, I'm not sure I'd see it as good value for my money.
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