Expensive bikes - hard to sell 2nd hand
Discussion
Dammit said:
Only realistic way to move a second hand, high end bike is to split it up, sell frame/fork/headset as one lot, groupset another, wheels, finishing kit etc.
If I'm looking for a Look 685 second hand then odds on I have all the rest of the stuff to move onto the frame- why would I want to lay out the extra, only to sell it all again?
^as an e.g.
Agree. I often do this sort of thing. Although I reckon it's usually cheaper to bag a whole bike second hand and then recycle / sell the bits you don't want. If I'm looking for a Look 685 second hand then odds on I have all the rest of the stuff to move onto the frame- why would I want to lay out the extra, only to sell it all again?
^as an e.g.
That road cycle exchange has some interesting stuff on it!
http://roadcycleexchange.com/collections/wheels/pr...
http://roadcycleexchange.com/collections/wheels/pr...
ALawson said:
That road cycle exchange has some interesting stuff on it!
http://roadcycleexchange.com/collections/wheels/pr...
Bookmarked, thanks!http://roadcycleexchange.com/collections/wheels/pr...
May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
tobinen said:
Bookmarked, thanks!
May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
Whats it for? May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
Heavy, fairly obsolete group set (to be fair will do the job, but replacement parts will become expensive), meh wheelset. 6-700 quid tops.
A Moschino jersey would set it off lovely, if they made them.
tobinen said:
Bookmarked, thanks!
May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
Better than the other one - although older. Nice wheels. Frame is ok but not much better, albeit looks the part IMHO. I quite like it. Obviously it's not worth £1800 or anything like. May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
Disclaimer : I'm a big Pinarello tart as I now appear to own two.
I think another issue is that when being sold second hand, high end bikes are compared realistically with the other options.
You pay a lot of money for the name even though all bikes (*) are made in the far east in about 3 factories, the components are all basically the same, and the wheels are from a third party.
People who buy new are more likely to go oooooooo bianchi take my £4k. People who are buying second hand are far more objective (that's why they're buying second hand) and will think, decent carbon frame, ultegra, crap wheels that need upgrading. Not as good as a 2k canyon. Not as good as a 2k boardman. Probably about the same as a good ribble at £1400, but it's not even new any more.
Yet the seller still thinks ooooo Bianchi and wants £2.5k for it. The seller would of course never consider these other, much better value bikes and thinks that they are in some way inferior.
You pay a lot of money for the name even though all bikes (*) are made in the far east in about 3 factories, the components are all basically the same, and the wheels are from a third party.
People who buy new are more likely to go oooooooo bianchi take my £4k. People who are buying second hand are far more objective (that's why they're buying second hand) and will think, decent carbon frame, ultegra, crap wheels that need upgrading. Not as good as a 2k canyon. Not as good as a 2k boardman. Probably about the same as a good ribble at £1400, but it's not even new any more.
Yet the seller still thinks ooooo Bianchi and wants £2.5k for it. The seller would of course never consider these other, much better value bikes and thinks that they are in some way inferior.
tobinen said:
Bookmarked, thanks!
May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
This bike/advert are symptomatic of the issue with second hand 'posh' bikes.May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
ebay ad said:
"Buy it Now = £1835"
"Happy to take offers but, it cost over £3000 as built so [p]lease be sensible.
No one gives a stuff what you paid for it, buddy. Not being rude, just objective. "Happy to take offers but, it cost over £3000 as built so [p]lease be sensible.
For pretty much the same money (£1879), I could walk into Halfords and nab a brand new Pinarello... http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/p... ...OK, it is a step down the groupset tree, but in reality it isn't, because it's an older Ultegra group on the ebay bike, and "because trickle-down". I'd also have warranty support (such as it is) from Halfords, and consumer rights protection. The biggest downfall of the Halfords new bike is the wheelset, but how much life is left in the ebay bike's rims and hubs anyway? No-one really knows, hence there's always the risk with pre-owned bikes.
Stooping to the "I won't let it go cheap, because it cost 'x' to build" line is a nonsense. I paid £17k for a Ford Mondeo two years ago. It'll never be worth anywhere near that sum again, "because market forces". Same with bikes. My bikes are all 'worth' (to me, at least) what it cost to buy them, or in some cases, more, as replacing them with something current at the same spec level would be more expensive. Which is why I won't sell them, as I know that to a prospective purchaser the bikes are worth what they are willing to pay (probably not a lot, to be blatantly honest).
The ebay bike in question? It looks OK. It sounds like it had a decent amount of care taken with it. If you want it, arrange to view it, then make an offer. The seller will likely take you more seriously if you've made the effort to view it, and if it doesn't shift for the dreamland price he's set as the 'Buy it Now', then he might negotiate with you privately rather than re-list it. But you still have no idea about mileage, component life, crash damage, etc, and will have to take the seller's word on it. A degree of risk is involved. Whereas if the Halfords bike turns out to be 'other than as described' or fails in normal use, you'll have legal remedies available to set things straight. I suppose much depends on your personal assessment of the risks versus the benefits, and your own opinion of the cost/value ratio of the bike in question.
Ultimately, it's a second-hand, mass produced, carbon fibre bike, slung with an older Ultegra groupset and a fairly decent set of wheels which may or may not have seen service on a previous frameset. I think some buyers may have their heads turned by the name on the tubes, but I certainly wouldn't go above £1k to secure it. After all, it's not like the carbon fibres were woven together on the thighs of Italian virgins or owt
yellowjack said:
tobinen said:
Bookmarked, thanks!
May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
This bike/advert are symptomatic of the issue with second hand 'posh' bikes.May I ask the panel's opinion on this please: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinarello-FP-Quattro-Roa...
ebay ad said:
"Buy it Now = £1835"
"Happy to take offers but, it cost over £3000 as built so [p]lease be sensible.
No one gives a stuff what you paid for it, buddy. Not being rude, just objective. "Happy to take offers but, it cost over £3000 as built so [p]lease be sensible.
For pretty much the same money (£1879), I could walk into Halfords and nab a brand new Pinarello... http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/road-bikes/p... ...OK, it is a step down the groupset tree, but in reality it isn't, because it's an older Ultegra group on the ebay bike, and "because trickle-down". I'd also have warranty support (such as it is) from Halfords, and consumer rights protection. The biggest downfall of the Halfords new bike is the wheelset, but how much life is left in the ebay bike's rims and hubs anyway? No-one really knows, hence there's always the risk with pre-owned bikes.
Stooping to the "I won't let it go cheap, because it cost 'x' to build" line is a nonsense. I paid £17k for a Ford Mondeo two years ago. It'll never be worth anywhere near that sum again, "because market forces". Same with bikes. My bikes are all 'worth' (to me, at least) what it cost to buy them, or in some cases, more, as replacing them with something current at the same spec level would be more expensive. Which is why I won't sell them, as I know that to a prospective purchaser the bikes are worth what they are willing to pay (probably not a lot, to be blatantly honest).
The ebay bike in question? It looks OK. It sounds like it had a decent amount of care taken with it. If you want it, arrange to view it, then make an offer. The seller will likely take you more seriously if you've made the effort to view it, and if it doesn't shift for the dreamland price he's set as the 'Buy it Now', then he might negotiate with you privately rather than re-list it. But you still have no idea about mileage, component life, crash damage, etc, and will have to take the seller's word on it. A degree of risk is involved. Whereas if the Halfords bike turns out to be 'other than as described' or fails in normal use, you'll have legal remedies available to set things straight. I suppose much depends on your personal assessment of the risks versus the benefits, and your own opinion of the cost/value ratio of the bike in question.
Ultimately, it's a second-hand, mass produced, carbon fibre bike, slung with an older Ultegra groupset and a fairly decent set of wheels which may or may not have seen service on a previous frameset. I think some buyers may have their heads turned by the name on the tubes, but I certainly wouldn't go above £1k to secure it. After all, it's not like the carbon fibres were woven together on the thighs of Italian virgins or owt
)Also the 105 groupset(5700) fitted to the Halfords bike is the same generation as the 6700 Ultegra fitted to the used bike - so no appreciable trickle down - although I take your point about the difference. R500 wheels really are pretty crap. I ended up with a set in the garage and they're a World away from a set of Ksyriums. So in summary you'd have to be on drugs to pay £1800 for the used bike, but on the real hardcore stuff to pay £1800 for the Halfords bike. stongle said:
Whats it for?
Heavy, fairly obsolete group set (to be fair will do the job, but replacement parts will become expensive), meh wheelset. 6-700 quid tops.
A Moschino jersey would set it off lovely, if they made them.
Heavy, fairly obsolete group set (to be fair will do the job, but replacement parts will become expensive), meh wheelset. 6-700 quid tops.
A Moschino jersey would set it off lovely, if they made them.
Depends what you think the frame is worth - it's overpriced, but not as bad as 6-700 quid.
Wheels - average, probably worth about 150-200 quid (350ish new)
Groupset - ultegra 6700. Far from heavy, and hardly obsolete - it's last years, that's all. IME, parts will be cheaper, not more expensive. 6800 chainset is 20 quid more than a 6700 one on wiggle.
Frame, I know nothing about pinarello, won't go near them on principle (MAMIL associations).
Neatly illustrates the problem with selling these things however, very driven by perception, fashion and personal aesthetic (not to mention lots of FUD about carbon).
ETA: What rocksteadyeddie said. And having run both, the 6700 is a long way ahead of the 5700.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 27th August 09:49
Rocksteadyeddie said:
Some good points made. I would take issue that the frame is the same on the Halfords bike as the used one - it's not. I believe all Pinarello frames are built in Taiwan. The Dogma and Prince/PAris are returned to Italy to be sprayed in a shed though, whereas the lesser ones are sprayed ina facory in Taiwan (probably to a higher standard )Also the 105 groupset(5700) fitted to the Halfords bike is the same generation as the 6700 Ultegra fitted to the used bike - so no appreciable trickle down - although I take your point about the difference. R500 wheels really are pretty crap. I ended up with a set in the garage and they're a World away from a set of Ksyriums. So in summary you'd have to be on drugs to pay £1800 for the used bike, but on the real hardcore stuff to pay £1800 for the Halfords bike.
To be fair, I wasn't saying it was 'the same' frame, just that the logic of many buyers is along the lines of...)Also the 105 groupset(5700) fitted to the Halfords bike is the same generation as the 6700 Ultegra fitted to the used bike - so no appreciable trickle down - although I take your point about the difference. R500 wheels really are pretty crap. I ended up with a set in the garage and they're a World away from a set of Ksyriums. So in summary you'd have to be on drugs to pay £1800 for the used bike, but on the real hardcore stuff to pay £1800 for the Halfords bike. "£1800? WTF? I could get a new one for £1800!"
Point taken about the 5700 (105) group - I hadn't paid close attention, and presumed (big mistake) that it'd be a full 5800 groupo on a bike carrying the 'Pinarello' branding. The R500 wheels? They seem to be on just about anything these days, from some of the better value £1k price point bikes right up to £2k or £3k stuff. Hell, they're even fitted to the Ventura CP50 that Argos were selling for £400 at one point. Frankly, buyers deserve a little more transparency from the 'posh' brands about the quality of vital components like wheels, but they often stoop to OEM re-branding of cheaper wheelsets to disguise the low price (yes, Fulcrum, I'm looking your way
) of the wheels they fit, then they'll fit 'blingy' shifters and rear mech to convince us that they've upgraded the groupset too (whilst cunningly downgrading the brake calipers). In summary, I'd agree with your summary tobinen said:
This thread is turning out to be a learning experience for me, which is a good thing. Mistakenly, it seems, I thought a decent brand name would be a safe-ish bet. And as for pricing, I also have much to learn.
What are you looking to achieve? Have you got £2k as a number in your head to achieve the "best bike possible" or do you have a particular sort of riding you tend to do? Do bear in mind that "upgraditis" will set in no matter what you buy. It affects us all. Some worse than others. The key to most people is a bike that is comfortable and that they enjoy riding. This often means that a bike fit (or at least the eye of someone with half a clue what they are doing with regards setup) will yield greater results than Ultegra vs 105 vs Athena groupo. If you don't ride it and it sits in the garage all the time then it doesn't really matter what it looks like. That is the thing. It would be a fine bike to ride. BUT you could get a lot more for your money.
The same way people buy certain cars on lease, little did they know the silly deals you can get on certain cars due to many factors, Golf R, M135 etc, all the while they're paying more for a worse car from another brand.
The same way people buy certain cars on lease, little did they know the silly deals you can get on certain cars due to many factors, Golf R, M135 etc, all the while they're paying more for a worse car from another brand.
Rocksteadyeddie said:
I ended up with a set in the garage and they're a World away from a set of Ksyriums. So in summary you'd have to be on drugs to pay £1800 for the used bike, but on the real hardcore stuff to pay £1800 for the Halfords bike.
Drugs? drinking the bong water & high as a mutherf**ker.At better comparison though would be other 2nd hand bikes.
I tend to sell excess bike stuff through the club or BBG network, the buyer has an element of recourse and I'm not a fantasist. - I have a 2013 9.2s AiR I intended to use a commuter; don't really gel with it (too generic) and given new arrival soon, need to clear it for space. If I could achieve 1k - 1100 for a Di2 equipped bike with <2k on it ( & Racing 1s etc) I'd be pretty chuffed, no amazed. Yep, the Boardmann may not have the fancy name; but one of these is a better value proposition.
upsidedownmark said:
Depends what you think the frame is worth - it's overpriced, but not as bad as 6-700 quid.
Wheels - average, probably worth about 150-200 quid (350ish new)
Groupset - ultegra 6700. Far from heavy, and hardly obsolete - it's last years, that's all. IME, parts will be cheaper, not more expensive. 6800 chainset is 20 quid more than a 6700 one on wiggle.
Frame, I know nothing about pinarello, won't go near them on principle (MAMIL associations).
Neatly illustrates the problem with selling these things however, very driven by perception, fashion and personal aesthetic (not to mention lots of FUD about carbon).
ETA: What rocksteadyeddie said. And having run both, the 6700 is a long way ahead of the 5700.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 27th August 09:49
You're bang on the money with the wheelset value though, I sold a set unused (from the Boardmann funny enough) to club mate for about 220; but subjective branding aside the frame is very; very average.
I think a lot of bikes on ebay are not in any rush to be sold. It costs next to nothing to keep an advert up there for long periods of time and if you are happily riding it or something else in the mean time then it doesn't matter if it takes 6 months for a mug to come along and pay full price.
Buy It Now can also be misleading. They can be a good way to draw auction prices upwards as people will view anything less that that as a bargain, regardless of the true value.
Buy It Now can also be misleading. They can be a good way to draw auction prices upwards as people will view anything less that that as a bargain, regardless of the true value.
stongle said:
upsidedownmark said:
Depends what you think the frame is worth - it's overpriced, but not as bad as 6-700 quid.
Wheels - average, probably worth about 150-200 quid (350ish new)
Groupset - ultegra 6700. Far from heavy, and hardly obsolete - it's last years, that's all. IME, parts will be cheaper, not more expensive. 6800 chainset is 20 quid more than a 6700 one on wiggle.
Frame, I know nothing about pinarello, won't go near them on principle (MAMIL associations).
Neatly illustrates the problem with selling these things however, very driven by perception, fashion and personal aesthetic (not to mention lots of FUD about carbon).
ETA: What rocksteadyeddie said. And having run both, the 6700 is a long way ahead of the 5700.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 27th August 09:49
You're bang on the money with the wheelset value though, I sold a set unused (from the Boardmann funny enough) to club mate for about 220; but subjective branding aside the frame is very; very average.
tobinen said:
This thread is turning out to be a learning experience for me, which is a good thing. Mistakenly, it seems, I thought a decent brand name would be a safe-ish bet. And as for pricing, I also have much to learn.
Buying a decent brand is still a safe bet. Colnago still makes "boutique" frames that are handmade on-site in Italy (the C59/60 is lovely). Most Italian brands have outsourced almost all prod. to Asia, but the quality is still excellent. The sad fact is that many high-end makers simply can't produce in Italy anymore. This even affects Campagnolo, who has managed to hang on and keep producing in Italy at the same quality level, despite losing market share to (largely) cheapo component makers like SRAM and Shimano. A bike from any decent Italian make that listed at 3k or up is going to make a lovely ride for the average rider. Weight is not a big issue, as a super-light bike will not ride as well as one with a tick more heft, particularly on descents (which is why Colnago has bucked the SL trend for years) High-end wheels are also overrated -- for fitness riding, you want a set that is, above all, durable and moderately light.
All the bikes you have chosen so far are nice rides, but I would not pay more than 12-1300 for one, as these bikes simply don't hold value due to the "advances" in technology every year (read: marketing).
Edited by scherzkeks on Wednesday 27th August 10:49
TwistingMyMelon said:
£500 for a front mech?????
Sorry my bad £399. But check Wiggle DA 7970 (MRRP) £399 DA 9070 (MRRP) £269, even after their discounts the "obsolete" version is over £100 dearer...... Maybe 9070 is a lot cheaper as it appears to be light, but made of cheese (well the attrition rate appears to be pretty high).
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