Wear that helmet!

Author
Discussion

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
And of course it's not the end.

Why on earth would we not want to emulate those countries - those near-neighbouring European countries? Why on earth would we want to move in the opposite direction? Why do we have this unique attitude, that makes things so much worse for all road users?
How many people on this forum want the following;
Mandatory helmet laws?
Reduction in the number of cyclists?
Zero investment in cycling infrastructure?

I think you'll find it's none.... So this whole "why on earth would we not want to emulate those countries", "why do we want to move in the opposite direction", "why do we have this unique attitude" whine of yours is transparent and pathetic, it doesn't represent the views of any cyclists on pistonheads! I think you just like thinking you are in the minority but you're not. The we you refer to doesn't apply to anyone here?!....

OTBC

289 posts

121 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
Vipers said:
Let me get this straight, if I had not been wearing my helmet, the bit of ice I skidded on may have not been there, amazing to say the least.

The fact I did fall, cracked the helmet, but didnt sustain any scratches or abrasions to my head means the helmet was a waste of time, ho hum

I refuse to continue this drivel any further, bye bye.




smile
sarcasm, how mature.


It's called Risk Compensation and is the same factor between accidents increasing after seat belt legislation.

In one experimental study, adults accustomed to wearing helmets cycled more slowly without a helmet, but no difference in helmeted and unhelmeted cycling speed was found for cyclists who do not usually wear helmets.[50][51]

An experimental study found that children negotiating an obstacle course on foot went faster and took more risks when wearing safety gear (including helmets).[52]

A telephone interview study found that in hypothetical scenarios of their children wearing protective equipment or not, parents' ratings of permissible risk for their children was higher if protective gear was hypothetically worn.[53]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet#Risk_c...

I don't know why you ignored the question but I don't think you understand how helmets work. No compression of the foam means no force was dissipated. Your fall caused a cracked helmet. The evidence that it saved you from a head injury doesn't exist.

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
pablo said:
How many people on this forum want the following;
Mandatory helmet laws?
Reduction in the number of cyclists?
Zero investment in cycling infrastructure?

I think you'll find it's none.... So this whole "why on earth would we not want to emulate those countries", "why do we want to move in the opposite direction", "why do we have this unique attitude" whine of yours is transparent and pathetic, it doesn't represent the views of any cyclists on pistonheads! I think you just like thinking you are in the minority but you're not. The we you refer to doesn't apply to anyone here?!....
Well, in the many and lengthy threads we have on this subject, almost nobody joins me in calling for the same thing. Virtually nobody says anything along the lines of us moving towards the European experience and almost everybody wants to move away from the european by either supporting the staus quo or criticising those who won't wear helmets. Everybody just dismisses it as though there is something different over the re that we cannot emulate.

My understanding is that in europe hardly anyone talks about cycling accidents because they really don't have them to a degree that they're worth talking about, but on these threads it seems that all of our cyclists want to show pictures of smashed helmets and brain damaged children. I would suggest that our cyclists actively want to talk a completely different language, in more ways that one, than our continental brethren.

One of the resident keen cyclists told us that he cycled in Holland recently but chose to stick to the British habit of wearing a helmet. Which of course is absolutely fine, but surely I am allowed to explore the thinking behind the wearing of a helmet for one extremely safe activity but not wearing a helmet for other safe activities?

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Well, in the many and lengthy threads we have on this subject, almost nobody joins me in calling for the same thing. Virtually nobody says anything along the lines of us moving towards the European experience and almost everybody wants to move away from the european by either supporting the staus quo or criticising those who won't wear helmets. Everybody just dismisses it as though there is something different over the re that we cannot emulate.

My understanding is that in europe hardly anyone talks about cycling accidents because they really don't have them to a degree that they're worth talking about, but on these threads it seems that all of our cyclists want to show pictures of smashed helmets and brain damaged children. I would suggest that our cyclists actively want to talk a completely different language, in more ways that one, than our continental brethren.

One of the resident keen cyclists told us that he cycled in Holland recently but chose to stick to the British habit of wearing a helmet. Which of course is absolutely fine, but surely I am allowed to explore the thinking behind the wearing of a helmet for one extremely safe activity but not wearing a helmet for other safe activities?
The simple fact is the "European experience" isnt born out of an accident but by town and city planners trying to integrate cyclists and motorists whereas in this country, the motorist is hugely prioritised with cycling infrastructure often an afterthought. But how will cyclists be able to share the roads safely with such poor infrastructure combined with the average motorists mentality, most of whom still believe in a thing called "road tax" giving them a right to drive on the roads they paid for... We cant emulate the European experience though, not without a radical overhaul of the road system and not without a complete change in motorists psychology. I think we'd all like the same cycling experience as the Dutch or the Danish but we know its not going to happen.

I still dont know who "our" cyclists are, PH? UK? everyone here on PH wants better infrastructure and the right to choose if they wear a helmet or not and I have never seen anyone post a message that calls for mandatory helmet law. There seems to be an opinion based on a mis-truth surrounding helmet use/laws. I find it odd that there is no support for mandatory helmet law and yet there are people who are vehemently arguing against it. Its an emotive subject but we shouldnt dismiss anecdotal evidence and base everything on statistics and (in many cases) some pretty poorly conducted research and vice versa of course!

I believe it was the great modern philosopher Eeyore who said "they're funny things accidents, you never know you having one until you're having one" or words to that effect, relevance, little if none, amusement value to me that you all read a quote from Winnie the Pooh in a debate about whether people should wear cycle helmets, quite high!.... I'll see you all on page 25 wink

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
pablo said:
The simple fact is the "European experience" isnt born out of an accident but by town and city planners trying to integrate cyclists and motorists whereas in this country, the motorist is hugely prioritised with cycling infrastructure often an afterthought. But how will cyclists be able to share the roads safely with such poor infrastructure combined with the average motorists mentality, most of whom still believe in a thing called "road tax" giving them a right to drive on the roads they paid for... We cant emulate the European experience though, not without a radical overhaul of the road system and not without a complete change in motorists psychology. I think we'd all like the same cycling experience as the Dutch or the Danish but we know its not going to happen.
There's no reason at all why it can't happen. It's all in the hands of the politicians, and councillors at a local level. Imo the only reason we're not getting the same infrastructure as everyone else is because fundamentally our politicians and councillors don't like people. If our leaders actually cared for people and their communities we'd have the same as everyone else.

Stuff the motorists though, they can do as they're told or face the consequences.

Westy Carl

178 posts

249 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
OTBC said:
I don't know why you ignored the question but I don't think you understand how helmets work. No compression of the foam means no force was dissipated. Your fall caused a cracked helmet. The evidence that it saved you from a head injury doesn't exist.
Any damage to the helmet means it dissapated energy that would have otherwise been dissapted by the head.
A cracked helemt may indiate falling on a sharp object (stone).
It the helmet cracked during a fall, don't you think that may have been you head cracking if you had no helemt on.

Justin Cyder

12,624 posts

148 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
Westy Carl said:
OTBC said:
I don't know why you ignored the question but I don't think you understand how helmets work. No compression of the foam means no force was dissipated. Your fall caused a cracked helmet. The evidence that it saved you from a head injury doesn't exist.
Any damage to the helmet means it dissapated energy that would have otherwise been dissapted by the head.
A cracked helemt may indiate falling on a sharp object (stone).
It the helmet cracked during a fall, don't you think that may have been you head cracking if you had no helemt on.
Yep, by definition, the energy goes somewhere & in this case, through the casing of the helmet. Better that than the skull. In my paragliding days, harnesses were commonly fitted with back protectors which would be made from L shaped polycarbonate plates backed with foam. After a spate of spinal injuries, it was found that the protectors in effect transmitted the force down the polycarb plate & delivered it to the base of the spine & they were replaced in short order by foam affairs which dispersed it in all directions.


Batfink

1,032 posts

257 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Well, in the many and lengthy threads we have on this subject, almost nobody joins me in calling for the same thing. Virtually nobody says anything along the lines of us moving towards the European experience and almost everybody wants to move away from the european by either supporting the staus quo or criticising those who won't wear helmets. Everybody just dismisses it as though there is something different over the re that we cannot emulate.

My understanding is that in europe hardly anyone talks about cycling accidents because they really don't have them to a degree that they're worth talking about, but on these threads it seems that all of our cyclists want to show pictures of smashed helmets and brain damaged children. I would suggest that our cyclists actively want to talk a completely different language, in more ways that one, than our continental brethren.

One of the resident keen cyclists told us that he cycled in Holland recently but chose to stick to the British habit of wearing a helmet. Which of course is absolutely fine, but surely I am allowed to explore the thinking behind the wearing of a helmet for one extremely safe activity but not wearing a helmet for other safe activities?
This is because bhing on a forum does not change things. Campaign in your local area, become a local Councillor, become an MP. Do something constructive. Heck! just get out on a bike and get as many of your friends and family out too. My view is that the car is so ingrained into UK society and the last 60 years of town and road planning that we are not going to see a revolution until fuel becomes too expensive. Until people start using the bike more there will never be money allocated to a well thought out infrastructure.

When out cycling I dont talk about crashes, or risk of accidents. I ame discussing fun routes, personal gains and whether i'm going to get rained on. More likely i'm are chatting about nothing in particular with friends for a few hours. A bit like going to the pub but exercising instead. Some of us are having accidents though whether you like it or not. It just happens. Thats life.

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
Batfink said:
This is because bhing on a forum does not change things. Campaign in your local area, become a local Councillor, become an MP. Do something constructive. Heck! just get out on a bike and get as many of your friends and family out too. My view is that the car is so ingrained into UK society and the last 60 years of town and road planning that we are not going to see a revolution until fuel becomes too expensive. Until people start using the bike more there will never be money allocated to a well thought out infrastructure.
Nope, I think you've got that completely the wrong way round.

Provide good infrastructure and more people will cycle, and everybody except possibly big business will benefit.

Without the infrastructure nothing will change. This has been proven pretty much everywhere imo.

OTBC

289 posts

121 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
Westy Carl said:
Any damage to the helmet means it dissapated energy that would have otherwise been dissapted by the head.
A cracked helemt may indiate falling on a sharp object (stone).
It the helmet cracked during a fall, don't you think that may have been you head cracking if you had no helemt on.
Before contributing to a cycle helmet thread, would it not be wise to check on how helmets are supposed to work/ Or at least read the thread?



The principal protection mechanism in a cycle helmet is the polystyrene foam, or styrofoam, that covers the head. When this receives a direct impact force, the styrofoam is intended to compress and in this way spread and reduce the force that is passed onto the skull, thus reducing linear acceleration of the brain. No compression-no dissipation of impact force.

Helmet standards require the foam to start to compress at a level of force less than that which might be expected to lead to brain injury. While it is known that many helmets do not actually meet the standards to which they are supposed to be accredited (BHRF, 1081), it follows that if the styrofoam does not compress at all, the direct linear force on the helmet was minimal and it's quite possible that the cyclist would not have received any injury if the helmet had not been worn.

i don't get why people can't understand this.

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
OTBC said:
Before contributing to a cycle helmet thread, would it not be wise to check on how helmets are supposed to work/ Or at least read the thread?



The principal protection mechanism in a cycle helmet is the polystyrene foam, or styrofoam, that covers the head. When this receives a direct impact force, the styrofoam is intended to compress and in this way spread and reduce the force that is passed onto the skull, thus reducing linear acceleration of the brain. No compression-no dissipation of impact force.

Helmet standards require the foam to start to compress at a level of force less than that which might be expected to lead to brain injury. While it is known that many helmets do not actually meet the standards to which they are supposed to be accredited (BHRF, 1081), it follows that if the styrofoam does not compress at all, the direct linear force on the helmet was minimal and it's quite possible that the cyclist would not have received any injury if the helmet had not been worn.

i don't get why people can't understand this.
Interesting. This might explain why despite the many pics of smashed helmets, nowhere is a reduction in head injury stats recorded unless its accompanied by a similar (or often greater)reduction in numbers of cyclists.

Westy Carl

178 posts

249 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
OTBC said:
Before contributing to a cycle helmet thread, would it not be wise to check on how helmets are supposed to work/ Or at least read the thread?
I guess 20yrs with a B'Eng Hons in Mechancial Engineering and working in the profession since isn't enough rolleyes

OTBC said:
The principal protection mechanism in a cycle helmet is the polystyrene foam, or styrofoam, that covers the head. When this receives a direct impact force, the styrofoam is intended to compress and in this way spread and reduce the force that is passed onto the skull, thus reducing linear acceleration of the brain. No compression-no dissipation of impact force.
This is correct if the impact is over a large area (flat pavement). However, if the helment hits a sharp object (stone, rock) with enough force to penetrate the outer hard shell then the point force will split the polystyrene foam. This is the mechanism that dissapates the energy.

In simple terms, hit a watermelon hard with a fying pan and you get a flat dent, hit it (with the same force) with the pointy end of a wine bottle and it will penetrate the water melon and likely split it. The same force has caused both effects.

p.s. I contributed 2 weeks ago and then gave up. Unfortinately I got sucked back in by incorrect info being posted.

Edited by Westy Carl on Tuesday 30th September 14:58

walm

10,609 posts

201 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
OTBC said:
The principal protection mechanism in a cycle helmet is the polystyrene foam, or styrofoam, that covers the head.
Are you sure?
I thought it was the chin strap.
Or the jaunty sun visor bit.

More seriously - I am sure you are correct about the linear acceleration.
Nevertheless something cracked the helmet after all and so the helmet has most likely stopped that something from approaching your head with enough force to crack a helmet, no?

bbrook

22 posts

116 months

Tuesday 30th September 2014
quotequote all
I wearing is such a good idea how come the "Boris" bikes have not had a huge negative affect on the statistics for London. Is it because people are comparing different types of rider?

Vipers

32,796 posts

227 months

Wednesday 1st October 2014
quotequote all
Westy Carl said:
It the helmet cracked during a fall, don't you think that may have been you head cracking if you had no helemt on.
I am not alone clap




smile