Getting stronger legs
Discussion
McFsC said:
What you think to big gear work, Okgo?
I know a few prem cal riders who do ALOT of that stuff... Quite intresting debate really. One is over 85kg, finished top 30 at Beumont UCI 1.2...
Big gear work? As in resistance training,a bit like weights in a gym? NEVER "you don't need strong legs to cycle" as OKGO once said "if you can climb a flight of stairs you can climb anything on a bike with the right gearing" which of course is right because my 90 year old grannie lived on the first floor and cycled up ventoux to get her shopping! I know a few prem cal riders who do ALOT of that stuff... Quite intresting debate really. One is over 85kg, finished top 30 at Beumont UCI 1.2...
Grandfondo said:
Big gear work? As in resistance training,a bit like weights in a gym? NEVER "you don't need strong legs to cycle" as OKGO once said "if you can climb a flight of stairs you can climb anything on a bike with the right gearing" which of course is right because my 90 year old grannie lived on the first floor and cycled up ventoux to get her shopping!
So why do the last 3 grand tour winners all look like 15 year olds in terms of their body's, surely they'd all have huge ripped legs from all the big weights they were squatting?Answer this, what amount of force did Armstrong put through each pedal stroke as an average when he won the Alp D time trial? He was about 70kg for reference - bear in mind this was in his superhuman years so was more power than nearly anyone can do now. Let me know what you reckon it was in kg.
okgo said:
Grandfondo said:
Big gear work? As in resistance training,a bit like weights in a gym? NEVER "you don't need strong legs to cycle" as OKGO once said "if you can climb a flight of stairs you can climb anything on a bike with the right gearing" which of course is right because my 90 year old grannie lived on the first floor and cycled up ventoux to get her shopping!
So why do the last 3 grand tour winners all look like 15 year olds in terms of their body's, surely they'd all have huge ripped legs from all the big weights they were squatting?Answer this, what amount of force did Armstrong put through each pedal stroke as an average when he won the Alp D time trial? He was about 70kg for reference - bear in mind this was in his superhuman years so was more power than nearly anyone can do now. Let me know what you reckon it was in kg.
P.S they might not have huge legs but they are certainly "ripped" .
You haven't answered the question.
Around 500w at 70kg ish, superhuman, what sort of force in KG was each pedal stroke - bearing in mind that going down on both legs without weight for an 80kg person is 40kg per leg and everyone can do that unless they have joint issues or something wrong with them...
Around 500w at 70kg ish, superhuman, what sort of force in KG was each pedal stroke - bearing in mind that going down on both legs without weight for an 80kg person is 40kg per leg and everyone can do that unless they have joint issues or something wrong with them...
Not even a guess?
Ok, it's around 27kg. So if you want to replicate that in a gym, TKF was on the right sort of track, alternatively if you're around 54kg then you can just do squats up and down with no weight around 95 times a minute, try it and see if it's the strength in your legs that stops your or whether it's the lactic acid and breathlessness....
P.s Bertie and his mates probably are doing mostly core stuff, squats are good for your core but don't expect them to help you climb hills quicker, unless those hills are very short, very very short
Ok, it's around 27kg. So if you want to replicate that in a gym, TKF was on the right sort of track, alternatively if you're around 54kg then you can just do squats up and down with no weight around 95 times a minute, try it and see if it's the strength in your legs that stops your or whether it's the lactic acid and breathlessness....
P.s Bertie and his mates probably are doing mostly core stuff, squats are good for your core but don't expect them to help you climb hills quicker, unless those hills are very short, very very short
tI had the same issue, thought it was legs; but was actually a poor aerobic engine. Did some work using Aerobic Decoupling Factor (ADF) scoring, which basically told me / us I needed to put in a lot more base fitness work. Seeing it in numbers made it fairly stark (ADF was coming in around 10-11% drift on certain rides). Try and do a few sessions with a coach or try and ascertain a full baseline.
Training with data is a bit like derivative trading & the Greeks (there’s a lot of it), but we hunt alpha / power, only. We seem to favour specific training to beat wattage targets, but this probably won't make you a rounded cyclist. It also lends you to riding into a certain comfort level (so you gravitate towards certain rides or sessions). In fact my training data showed that despite being a poor climber; anything upto 4% prolonged I was riding in power zone 5-6 (comfortably), but steeper ascents I was in big trouble (riding the Ponferrada course profile was a shocker!). It should’ve been obvious what the problem was; but seeing the number made it pretty real.
Of course climbing ability is one of the main benchmarks used to assess how good a cyclist is – but its not the only weapon in your armoury. There are plenty of racing snakes, good climbers whose efficiency and aero (including comedy bike set-up) blow goats. I wouldn’t climb hill after hill at the full expense of what you are good at; but work towards balance.
Unfortunately I suspect that aerobic training properly sucks as it also involves less pale ale & truffle chips, harder and more mixed sessions. It also requires a very strong dose of mental strength, dedication & will power.
Training with data is a bit like derivative trading & the Greeks (there’s a lot of it), but we hunt alpha / power, only. We seem to favour specific training to beat wattage targets, but this probably won't make you a rounded cyclist. It also lends you to riding into a certain comfort level (so you gravitate towards certain rides or sessions). In fact my training data showed that despite being a poor climber; anything upto 4% prolonged I was riding in power zone 5-6 (comfortably), but steeper ascents I was in big trouble (riding the Ponferrada course profile was a shocker!). It should’ve been obvious what the problem was; but seeing the number made it pretty real.
Of course climbing ability is one of the main benchmarks used to assess how good a cyclist is – but its not the only weapon in your armoury. There are plenty of racing snakes, good climbers whose efficiency and aero (including comedy bike set-up) blow goats. I wouldn’t climb hill after hill at the full expense of what you are good at; but work towards balance.
Unfortunately I suspect that aerobic training properly sucks as it also involves less pale ale & truffle chips, harder and more mixed sessions. It also requires a very strong dose of mental strength, dedication & will power.
The OP isnt really interested in how to train for a 3 week grand tour. If all you want to do is win a multi stage race then there isnt much to be gained from weights training. On the other side, an extreme example are Hoy and Pendleton who did loads of weights training. The OP appears to want to smash out a good one day ride over 100 miles, aka a typical sportive and would probably be best to look at the classics riders like Boonen, Hushovd and Cancellara, all of whom have far more muscular legs compared to Froome and Riblon for example. Horses for courses but its fairly obvious to see why Froome and Cancellara have different body shapes and I doubt Kittel got those thighs by just riding around "getting fitter"...
pablo said:
The OP isnt really interested in how to train for a 3 week grand tour. If all you want to do is win a multi stage race then there isnt much to be gained from weights training. On the other side, an extreme example are Hoy and Pendleton who did loads of weights training. The OP appears to want to smash out a good one day ride over 100 miles, aka a typical sportive and would probably be best to look at the classics riders like Boonen, Hushovd and Cancellara, all of whom have far more muscular legs compared to Froome and Riblon for example. Horses for courses but its fairly obvious to see why Froome and Cancellara have different body shapes and I doubt Kittel got those thighs by just riding around "getting fitter"...
There may be merit in weight training for some riders, but it wouldn't be my top priority for a 15 stone occasional sportive rider who is looking to improve his climbing. hora said:
Ok first off- its not possible to 'ride more'.
Where I live its flat as a pancake for miles.
At the weekend I rode some proper hills. A 1st gear car climb- my lungs were fine on but my quads were struggling.
So- hit the gym and/or roller trainer?
What should I be doing at the gym?
Do you have the time for Where I live its flat as a pancake for miles.
At the weekend I rode some proper hills. A 1st gear car climb- my lungs were fine on but my quads were struggling.
So- hit the gym and/or roller trainer?
What should I be doing at the gym?
2 x 2 to 3 hour endurance rides. This will help with endurance try and include some skills and drills if possible (bike handling/cornering etc)
1 x hard interval turbo session. Will help with top end efforts (short climbs and bridging gaps etc.)
I x legs based gym session. This will help the very top end 30 sec sprints and steep sharp short climbs and will help, but not to replace the on bike training
Do not aim to put muscle mass on, aim to make your muscles more efficient, you need the rest of the body to feed them, The gym is a supplement to riding the bike not a replacement for riding your bike.
A quick note on the skills and drills comment there are a lot of people buying bikes and do not have the skills to ride them well. How hard is riding a bike, not too hard at all but riding it well is a skill not just a technique.
I hope that makes sense and helps.
TKF said:
Then I reckon he'll want a good aerobic engine.
Who do you reckon would be quicker over 100 miles on a bike? Bolt or Farah?
I dont know, its like asking whether Wiggo could beat Contador at Badminton? I get your point but your analogy is rubbish. They excel in what they train to do but if you think Bolt has no aerobic capacity becuase he is a sprinter you are wrong. They will both have a incredibly efficient respiratory capability. Bolt has often said he is moving up the distances and has already posted some very fast 400m times. Who do you reckon would be quicker over 100 miles on a bike? Bolt or Farah?
Back to the point in question, Cancellara and Froome both have the same efficent respiratory capabilties, Cancellara has stronger legs because thats what he trains for. If he wanted to climb mountains and win GC he would train for that.
As a case in point, who was the last grand tour winner to also win Flanders, Roubaix, Harelbeke or Wevelgem.....
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