Specialized - Are they the be all and end all?
Discussion
yonex said:
Well, I thank you for being so gracious. I always like to make sure slower riders like yourself feel included.
from another thread:yonex said:
I might be able to join you guys, I'm not very good but Swinley is on my radar :smile:
just how slow do you assume scherzkeks to be?I have owned 3 Specialized MTB frames ( M4 FSR's) and managed to break one after the other in 6 months. Was a lovely bike to ride, when it didn't break. Spesh were the best for replacements. No question, just sent another one. But I got dulled by them keep breaking, like I was a test mule for them. Got a refund on the frame and bought a Yeti ASR, which never broke and was nicer to ride. Yeti are a speck of dust compared to Specialized and made me realise that actually it wasn't that great a frame. I have a local Spesh concept shop and can honestly say, when visiting, nothing 'really' inspires. The top end bikes from 20 feet look identical to the £500 jobs. Nothing really sets them apart. OK the Venge etc are in another league, but I am talking £3k bikes , more joe average than Mr Rich Kid.
A mate swears by them, but the hidden gems like Ultegra groupset , with the Taigra brakes and cassette, makes it not an Ultegra groupset.Which I find quite misleading.
A mate swears by them, but the hidden gems like Ultegra groupset , with the Taigra brakes and cassette, makes it not an Ultegra groupset.Which I find quite misleading.
My son, 17, owns a S-Works Tarmac SL4 with full Dura Ace and it is a fantastic bike it's also his race bike. His traing bike is a Genesis Team Volare, Reynolds 953 Stainless Steel. Both of these frames were around the same money, thankfully he paid trade + VAT for them as at the time he worked in one of the big London based Cycle Stores.
deadtom said:
just how slow do you assume scherzkeks to be?
Well, fairly. Most bike snobs I meet are full of s
t when it comes to riding. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but show me someone who writes off an entire brand and tries to lord it over others who perhaps don't have the means or desire to own something 'worthy' and I'll show you someone who probably wouldn't be very rapid. It's not about the speed, there's always someone faster but this condescending nonsense gets on my nerves. There's nothing between the high end bikes with a top rider on board.P-Jay said:
When the MTB world stopped caring about Nutters 'hucking' off 40ft drops and started caring about Downhillers chasing seconds they were still trying to sell their Demo line of 2 wheels tanks, they tried to fix it with a Demo 9 which was even heavier and slower than the Demo 8 and the Big Hit, but it was really a cut-price Demo and it waded into battle with a 24" rear wheel everyone hated, it took them until 2011 to make an actual Downhill Race Bike - which pretty much coincided with the MTB starting to care more about Enduro Racing.
The 2010 demo won the 09 World Cup overall and 2010 world champs... It took them a while since their last success in the 90'sbut not that long and certainly don't deserve a tag of late band wagon jumping. Plenty of teams and bikes haven't been any good.I've just bought a new enduro. After 4 years my current specialized is still good but out of date with today's standards. I tend to find they're pretty good out of the box and tick most of the things I want in a bike.
The pitch for example was an 08 bike but if you look at the size and angles it's still very relevant. I can't think of another trail/enduro bike from 08 that quite hit the nail like they did...
Until bike manufacturers start publishing absolute statistical data on stiffness, torsional rigidity at the headtube and the BB, there's always going to be some subjectivity as to whether they have the best bike. Then there's how it feels against that data.....Perhaps only then can we see how the independent makers stack up against the big boys.
However it's only half the story anyway as weight has an effect on stiffness and the quest for lighter frames changes this dynamic. Specialized bang on about their fact frames having the very best STW (stiffness to weight) but in reality riders don't notice this ratio, which kind of makes it pointless.
However it's only half the story anyway as weight has an effect on stiffness and the quest for lighter frames changes this dynamic. Specialized bang on about their fact frames having the very best STW (stiffness to weight) but in reality riders don't notice this ratio, which kind of makes it pointless.
Edited by TSCfree on Monday 19th January 20:52
yonex said:
Well, fairly. Most bike snobs I meet are full of st when it comes to riding. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but show me someone who writes off an entire brand and tries to lord it over others who perhaps don't have the means or desire to own something 'worthy' and I'll show you someone who probably wouldn't be very rapid. It's not about the speed, there's always someone faster but this condescending nonsense gets on my nerves. There's nothing between the high end bikes with a top rider on board.
Typical. Manchild temper tantrum. t when it comes to riding. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule but show me someone who writes off an entire brand and tries to lord it over others who perhaps don't have the means or desire to own something 'worthy' and I'll show you someone who probably wouldn't be very rapid. It's not about the speed, there's always someone faster but this condescending nonsense gets on my nerves. There's nothing between the high end bikes with a top rider on board.You don't agree with me. You'll get over it.
deadtom said:
yonex said:
AFAIK they have only recalled forks and unlike certain Italian manufacturers not only did Specialized issue a voluntary recall, they also compensated owners.
specialized have always been known (at least in MTB circles) for being very good with warranty issues; I've heard stories of them offering replacement frames to people who are not the original owner, and
of them offering newer models as replacements rather than strictly like for likespecialized have always been known (at least in MTB circles) for being very good with warranty issues; I've heard stories of them offering replacement frames to people who are not the original owner, and
In the 90s I had a Stumpjumper M2 which I didn't even buy in this country. After 6 months the rear mech broke, so I called Specialized UK for some advice. They asked me to take the bike down, whereupon they replaced the mech and checked the bike over, all without charge.
Whilst I was there the tech showed me a number of frames that had been returned under warranty. He quite candidly told me the weak points on the frames from each year, and then showed me a number of frames that had been damaged deliberately by customers. He explained to me exactly how each frame had been broken and how he knew that it was deliberate damage. In all but one case, where the customer was a repeat offender, they had still replaced the frames.
I used to be a great specialized fan, from when I bought my stumpjumper M2 frame back in 1997 and yes it was bloody expensive then, about £800 if I remember. I still ride that frame now. However my road bike experiances have not been so good, My s-works tarmac SL was a great bike until the frame snapped at the BB, but due to its age (6 years) Specialized did not want to know, the s-works saddle also failed and now my s-works road shoe carbon soles have failed. Also my aluminium Allez frame corroded so badly from the inside that the rear stays cracked
I think its like all these companies you need to pick and choose the best bits
I think its like all these companies you need to pick and choose the best bits
Surely anyone being in the top 3 brands sales wise isn't making ste - they'd get found out quickly, and lose that position.
I do think they suffer from the strange bike thing of people liking bespoke little niche quaintness: Your local bike shop, but never evans. The Beard Latte Cafe, but not starbucks. Colnago, not specialised etc etc.
The thing is these rose tinted glasses make people then look cynically at Giant and Spesh, but the same glare isn't put on others, strangely. Loads of people are calling Spesh out because their top frame is a different spec based on the finishing kit - so it's too expensive unless you can afford to go frameset or top model. Isn't that logical though? After all, if the only difference between the entry level and top in that line was the groupset and handlebars, they couldn't possibly justify that ine is 2.5k and the other 5.
Now, we'll see the cynics say "AHA! Proof that 5k is profiteering". Look at it another way: They've built one of the best frames ever made by anyone. It's the best. They ARE going to charge for it (otherwise why bother?). That they've chosen to sell watered down versions for keen amateurs is sane - it's IMO no different to Porsche selling various GT3 variants for club racers (despite having made a GTE version). Given that the sales price for the top frame is high (mill cost plus development / Tour De France costs to recoup) Would people prefer if the Venge was only available in top spec or not at all? Surely the difference between 105 and DI2 could only be say 15% of the build max...
I find it all strange that people get so emotive like this - because the same scruitiny levelled at pretty much anything will pick holes in it. Most of the high end Italian brands (made in China) look bad straight away, and although someone above said that e.g the German brands don't do it, my Focus Cayo 6 has a completely inferior fork to a 2, 1 or 0 - but it's still a good bike so it matters not one jot to me..
TL;DR? If you want the best frame you can always buy a frameset. Don't get angered because they also sell watered down versions - the existence of other models doesn't make the bike your riding any better or worse =)
te - they'd get found out quickly, and lose that position.I do think they suffer from the strange bike thing of people liking bespoke little niche quaintness: Your local bike shop, but never evans. The Beard Latte Cafe, but not starbucks. Colnago, not specialised etc etc.
The thing is these rose tinted glasses make people then look cynically at Giant and Spesh, but the same glare isn't put on others, strangely. Loads of people are calling Spesh out because their top frame is a different spec based on the finishing kit - so it's too expensive unless you can afford to go frameset or top model. Isn't that logical though? After all, if the only difference between the entry level and top in that line was the groupset and handlebars, they couldn't possibly justify that ine is 2.5k and the other 5.
Now, we'll see the cynics say "AHA! Proof that 5k is profiteering". Look at it another way: They've built one of the best frames ever made by anyone. It's the best. They ARE going to charge for it (otherwise why bother?). That they've chosen to sell watered down versions for keen amateurs is sane - it's IMO no different to Porsche selling various GT3 variants for club racers (despite having made a GTE version). Given that the sales price for the top frame is high (mill cost plus development / Tour De France costs to recoup) Would people prefer if the Venge was only available in top spec or not at all? Surely the difference between 105 and DI2 could only be say 15% of the build max...
I find it all strange that people get so emotive like this - because the same scruitiny levelled at pretty much anything will pick holes in it. Most of the high end Italian brands (made in China) look bad straight away, and although someone above said that e.g the German brands don't do it, my Focus Cayo 6 has a completely inferior fork to a 2, 1 or 0 - but it's still a good bike so it matters not one jot to me..
TL;DR? If you want the best frame you can always buy a frameset. Don't get angered because they also sell watered down versions - the existence of other models doesn't make the bike your riding any better or worse =)
The concept store in Birmingham has very good service. Bought an Allez last year and placed an order for a 2015 Tarmac Sport this year as I got hyped over their new frame. Placed an order but luckily I backed out as they didnt have it in stock over xmas as I realised you have to pay 3k before you get their new frame...below that, you get a lower quality last years frame, same as the SL4 but they dont call it that anymore!
Very misleading and put me off the bike. Ended up with a Pinarello on sale....2k with R500 wheels!
Very misleading and put me off the bike. Ended up with a Pinarello on sale....2k with R500 wheels!
I found the guys in Birmingham to not care, I called in once to ask about the Diverge and the bloke didn't want to talk much, the second time I was looking at the helmets and both guys next to the counter didn't want to offer any assistance.
Different in the Nottingham one, they couldn't offer me any more assistance including showing me different bikes in various ranges and offering different sizes for me to try. When I went in looking at helmets one guy pointed out the differences between the various helmets.
Guess which store I've ordered my new bike and helmet from.
Different in the Nottingham one, they couldn't offer me any more assistance including showing me different bikes in various ranges and offering different sizes for me to try. When I went in looking at helmets one guy pointed out the differences between the various helmets.
Guess which store I've ordered my new bike and helmet from.
I've been looking for a new Road Bike/Frame for the best part of 12 months now and Specialized weren't even on the radar until I experienced their superb customer service first hand. Full story is here if you have a few minutes.
I do agree their full builds can look expensive which is why I'll be buying the frameset and transplanting most of the components from my current bike onto it.
P
I do agree their full builds can look expensive which is why I'll be buying the frameset and transplanting most of the components from my current bike onto it.
P
okgo said:
Just bought an s works tarmac. I await the rapid decline from 1st cat to 3rd due to my choices 
Yes, mediocrity is calling. I guess the guy doesn't know that Giant, that little know and most un-corporate 'anti Fred' manufacturer has a large stake and also supplies some frames for his beloved brand? The irony is killing me 
yonex said:
okgo said:
Just bought an s works tarmac. I await the rapid decline from 1st cat to 3rd due to my choices
Yes, mediocrity is calling. I guess the guy doesn't know that Giant, that little know and most un-corporate 'anti Fred' manufacturer has a large stake and also supplies some frames for his beloved brand? The irony is killing me 
There is a sort of reverse snobbery against volume brands indeed.
At the end of the day, does it really matter what tool is selected if one is having fun with it? It's similar to cars actually, it's what you do with it that separates the driving enthusiasts to the internet only enthusiasts. But let's not go there or will all end up driving a 4wd 4-pot turbo.
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