Level Training - waste of time for a normal cyclist?
Discussion
I have started trying to only do 'level 2' rides (130-140bpm for me) through January and February. However, I ride a 30-40min commute every now and again which I've been told is too short for a proper level ride so I just ride normally. I also want to get some hill practice in as I am in for the Fred Whitton!
I am training for the Sportive season and also to try a few local TTs and cat 4 criterion races.
So, am I wasting my time in level training as not every ride is a level ride and should I just go and enjoy my rides and push myself- chasing segments? I'm never going to worry any leaderboards, either real life or Strava but have improved my cycling through 'normal' rides over the past 3 years.
Steve
I am training for the Sportive season and also to try a few local TTs and cat 4 criterion races.
So, am I wasting my time in level training as not every ride is a level ride and should I just go and enjoy my rides and push myself- chasing segments? I'm never going to worry any leaderboards, either real life or Strava but have improved my cycling through 'normal' rides over the past 3 years.
Steve
I'm probably a similar type of rider to you Steve. First thing to say is I find it almost impossible on the road to stay in a 10 bpm band; wind, gradient, your mood, how many beers the night before, how much sleep you had, all make it very hard to do that. And as a lot of my rides are commutes you need to be very disciplined to have the right amount of time to do a planned ride like that every time.
I tried doing a different level ride every time I went out but as I ride every other day at best it takes the better part of two weeks to get through all 5 (or 6 depending on whose levels you are using) and found if I set my Garmin to the bottom of one zone and the top of the next, out on the road I could pretty much stay in that double zone.
I think if you are a pro, or very serious amateur and ride two training sessions a day 6 or 7 days a week that's when you get the most benefit from doing the different levels. Mentally it is a help to be doing different things when on the bike, and also when off it, the planning can be interesting (and time consuming).
I'm doing a hill challenge around the time of the Fred so am doing intervals to try and replicate what I'll be doing then, but I can't just do that, I have to do some other things to stop me getting bored.
I tried doing a different level ride every time I went out but as I ride every other day at best it takes the better part of two weeks to get through all 5 (or 6 depending on whose levels you are using) and found if I set my Garmin to the bottom of one zone and the top of the next, out on the road I could pretty much stay in that double zone.
I think if you are a pro, or very serious amateur and ride two training sessions a day 6 or 7 days a week that's when you get the most benefit from doing the different levels. Mentally it is a help to be doing different things when on the bike, and also when off it, the planning can be interesting (and time consuming).
I'm doing a hill challenge around the time of the Fred so am doing intervals to try and replicate what I'll be doing then, but I can't just do that, I have to do some other things to stop me getting bored.
If you're still improving then I wouldn't get hung up on heart rate zones etc, just get on your bike regularly with a mix of longer moderate rides and shorter more intense efforts.
Hill training isn't absolutely necessary when preparing for hilly rides. More important is the ability to ride at threshold or beyond for the equivalent time to the climbs. This can be done on flat roads, you just need to pedal harder to bring your heart rate up to threshold and hold it there for 20+ minutes (or whatever the length of clibs).
The Fred Whitton has some ultra steep climbs, so you would benefit from tackling some steep ones in training, but mainly to get used to the technique and to ensure you have appropriate gearing for 30% gradients.
Obviously if you live near hills then just train on those as that will replicate the terrain of the FW as closely as possible.
Hill training isn't absolutely necessary when preparing for hilly rides. More important is the ability to ride at threshold or beyond for the equivalent time to the climbs. This can be done on flat roads, you just need to pedal harder to bring your heart rate up to threshold and hold it there for 20+ minutes (or whatever the length of clibs).
The Fred Whitton has some ultra steep climbs, so you would benefit from tackling some steep ones in training, but mainly to get used to the technique and to ensure you have appropriate gearing for 30% gradients.
Obviously if you live near hills then just train on those as that will replicate the terrain of the FW as closely as possible.
You are training for two very different things, one is a long distance ride with some decent hills in it, a crit on the other hand is a short, and very fast. Both require good recovery rates to help, but a few interval sessions really wouldn't go a miss. You need to put some longer rides in, maybe one a weekend, to get the distance then use your commute as a chance for intervals, sprinting of traffic lights etc. Either that or carry on as you are and just enjoy your cycling.
My very brief flirtation with heart rate zone training made me realise that it's a good way to suck all the fun out of cycling. Now my training regime for sportives and the like (I'm doing the Fred too) can be summed up as: do the long version of the commute at least twice a week, preferably three times. Do a long ride at the weekend. Push yourself whenever you're out on the bike, whether that's in the form of long steady efforts or more intervally type stuff (which is easy when you live somewhere hilly), unless you feel a bit knackered in which case take it easy.
This approach has seen me right for two previous Fred Whittons, a fast JoGLE trip, and all sorts of other stuff.
This approach has seen me right for two previous Fred Whittons, a fast JoGLE trip, and all sorts of other stuff.
IMHO, if you're only going for 40 mins, you may as well go hard to at least get some benefit. 40 mins at zone 2 isn't going to make much difference to anyone unless they're pretty unfit.
HR is a bit approximate at the best of times (very affected by environment), however I'd certainly use it as a guide on long rides (3hrs +). As to whether it sucks the fun out, that's more of a personal question - I know plenty who just want to do it all by feel, equally I know some (self included) who are complete data slaves, and can barely be bothered to train if there's not half a dozen channels of data being captured
HR is a bit approximate at the best of times (very affected by environment), however I'd certainly use it as a guide on long rides (3hrs +). As to whether it sucks the fun out, that's more of a personal question - I know plenty who just want to do it all by feel, equally I know some (self included) who are complete data slaves, and can barely be bothered to train if there's not half a dozen channels of data being captured
The area where I live is fairly rural and flat so not hard to maintain a steady HR - even on my commute. To be honest, I just don't feel like I've worked hard enough!
Does it ruin 'the plan' if you do a couple of 2hr level 2 rides with a couple of balls out rides each week or is it all or nothing?
Steve
Does it ruin 'the plan' if you do a couple of 2hr level 2 rides with a couple of balls out rides each week or is it all or nothing?
Steve
IMHO, any half decent plan would have a mix of short duration, high intensity, and long duration lower / L2 type intensity. So no, mix it up as you wish.
Given your targets are both going to involve bursts of intensity within longer efforts, I'd probably throw some threshold efforts into the long ride, practice going hard/recovering back to long steady pace.
However, as has been said, while this stuff helps, the main thing you need to do is ride lots.
Given your targets are both going to involve bursts of intensity within longer efforts, I'd probably throw some threshold efforts into the long ride, practice going hard/recovering back to long steady pace.
However, as has been said, while this stuff helps, the main thing you need to do is ride lots.
If you are gathering data
Download into Golden Cheater, this will sort out what levels etc you have done. This will help you see what level and what amount of training you have done and don't be surprised if there is 30% of it at recovery level as you will not be pressing on the pedals all of he time.
A development of the above statement comes when you train to a power meter,example would be as you climb a hill your HR picks up, you press on the pedals and you maintain the pressure on the pedals, now when you go over the top, the pressure on the pedals eases or stops, now your HR is still high so you record that as training but the power meter has no power input as you are glass cranking or freewheeling so if training to power you have to concentrate harder and press on the pedals more consistently to get say 40 mins at your chosen level.
I have data from the velodrome which shows my HR slowly rising my bike stationary so zero power in Watts. I was actually laid flat out on the floor after the effort.
Data is good BUT you need to log it, trend it and understand it, to use it to improve. The Critical Power curve that Golden Cheater gives you is good for goal setting efforts as the cure is a theoretical max from all you efforts to date and your latest over laid on it, so you can plot a 1 min effort and it may say 507Watts you can then look at you 50 sec power output and aim to do that for 1 min to improve.
I know this is a long answer and will open a large can of worms but you can go two ways and to the extreme of each, just ride your bike and some results will come (you will never know how good you could have been) or train to numbers this is very hard takes time and effort never gets any easier this will also bring results but the results may not be the ones you dream of (rainbow jersey etc)
Download into Golden Cheater, this will sort out what levels etc you have done. This will help you see what level and what amount of training you have done and don't be surprised if there is 30% of it at recovery level as you will not be pressing on the pedals all of he time.
A development of the above statement comes when you train to a power meter,example would be as you climb a hill your HR picks up, you press on the pedals and you maintain the pressure on the pedals, now when you go over the top, the pressure on the pedals eases or stops, now your HR is still high so you record that as training but the power meter has no power input as you are glass cranking or freewheeling so if training to power you have to concentrate harder and press on the pedals more consistently to get say 40 mins at your chosen level.
I have data from the velodrome which shows my HR slowly rising my bike stationary so zero power in Watts. I was actually laid flat out on the floor after the effort.
Data is good BUT you need to log it, trend it and understand it, to use it to improve. The Critical Power curve that Golden Cheater gives you is good for goal setting efforts as the cure is a theoretical max from all you efforts to date and your latest over laid on it, so you can plot a 1 min effort and it may say 507Watts you can then look at you 50 sec power output and aim to do that for 1 min to improve.
I know this is a long answer and will open a large can of worms but you can go two ways and to the extreme of each, just ride your bike and some results will come (you will never know how good you could have been) or train to numbers this is very hard takes time and effort never gets any easier this will also bring results but the results may not be the ones you dream of (rainbow jersey etc)
Most people train too hard on their easy days and too easy on their hard days, apparently.
Base zone 1 and zone 2 miles aren't 'junk' but they might not be best use of every ride - and probably aren't best use of sub-2 hour rides.
Equally you can't commute in zone 4...and if you try to do the full commute every day at max sustainable effort you'll probably fall into the grey area where neither aerobic nor anaerobic systems are getting the best workout. You'll also probably knacker yourself.
I read somewhere that you should aim to spend 5 - 10% of your training in zone 4; no reason why this shouldn't apply to every individual ride as well as to your overall training, but mix it up, so sprint different bits every day, and have some progression, so you have easy weeks, moderate weeks and hard weeks and the hard weeks get more frequent as you go along.
If I had the time to practice what I preach then I could tell you if it worked...
Base zone 1 and zone 2 miles aren't 'junk' but they might not be best use of every ride - and probably aren't best use of sub-2 hour rides.
Equally you can't commute in zone 4...and if you try to do the full commute every day at max sustainable effort you'll probably fall into the grey area where neither aerobic nor anaerobic systems are getting the best workout. You'll also probably knacker yourself.
I read somewhere that you should aim to spend 5 - 10% of your training in zone 4; no reason why this shouldn't apply to every individual ride as well as to your overall training, but mix it up, so sprint different bits every day, and have some progression, so you have easy weeks, moderate weeks and hard weeks and the hard weeks get more frequent as you go along.
If I had the time to practice what I preach then I could tell you if it worked...
I think you should dissect your goals Steve and train to those requirements. Between now and April look at developing strength and threshold which will help on the hills and TTs. Make sure you have at least 1 decent endurance ride a week too. Plan your first crit on the calendar and work back from that date to build in repeated high intensity intervals. I think you have to work out what you enjoy out of cycling to get the best from yourself. Enjoy your riding or training with your goals in mind and the fitness will come.
Just hit the hills and everything else will come. When I was training for the Fred this time last year I started down a similar path to you trying to dissect everything but in the end you just need to ride. Try and plan one big ride a week and make sure to include plenty of elevation. Aim for 1000ft every 10 miles and you'll be OK, maybe not right away but certainly by the end of Feb. Start with 40-50 milers and work your way up to something approaching the 100 mile mark.
P
P
paulmon said:
Just hit the hills and everything else will come. When I was training for the Fred this time last year I started down a similar path to you trying to dissect everything but in the end you just need to ride. Try and plan one big ride a week and make sure to include plenty of elevation. Aim for 1000ft every 10 miles and you'll be OK, maybe not right away but certainly by the end of Feb. Start with 40-50 milers and work your way up to something approaching the 100 mile mark.
P
I can do long distances and I can climb hills. Both together is the issue! The problem living where I do is that I have to ride almost 20 miles to find a cat 4 hill! I have been known to do hill repeats up a local 'rise' to compensate.P
Steve
Steve vRS said:
I can do long distances and I can climb hills. Both together is the issue! The problem living where I do is that I have to ride almost 20 miles to find a cat 4 hill! I have been known to do hill repeats up a local 'rise' to compensate.
Steve
Stick the bike in the car and drive to them. I spend a lot of time riding around Hebden Bridge. Rather than ride the 15 miles across Manchester to get there we meet somewhere closer and do a loop. (where do you live BTW?).Steve
P
paulmon said:
Stick the bike in the car and drive to them. I spend a lot of time riding around Hebden Bridge. Rather than ride the 15 miles across Manchester to get there we meet somewhere closer and do a loop. (where do you live BTW?).
P
I do take the bike in the car up to West Cumbria when I visit my Mum and Dad. There are a lot of hills there!P
Between Warrington and Manchester btw.
Steve
Steve vRS said:
I do take the bike in the car up to West Cumbria when I visit my Mum and Dad. There are a lot of hills there!
Between Warrington and Manchester btw.
Steve
Me 2 and it can be challenging finding somewhere to ride with a few hills. Crank, Parbold, Beacon Hill are reasonable but I always gravitate towards Rivington/Horwich as there is some good riding to be done there. There is a climb upto Rivington Mast that is as close to some of the climbs on the Fred that you can get. Its 4.3 miles with an average of 5% but with segments of 10/15/21%. https://app.strava.com/segments/3493311?filter=fol...Between Warrington and Manchester btw.
Steve
P
I gave up on heart rate training. Most of my riding is now (quiet, rural) commuting about an hour each way.
I just ride easy, medium-hard, 'fartlek'/mountain biking or some hard intervals.
I too live on the West side of Manchester and the lack of local gradients is annoying. The nearest hills are bridges over the M62 and the ShIp Canal or there are some near Lymm.
As above, The Horwich area and St Helens-Parbold area are probably the best places locally for hills.
If I ride up Winter Hill I tend to ride from home, along the A6, up through the houses, across the main road and head Onto George's Lane the from the East.
Ps. There are also some short climbs around the Irwell Valley in the Swinton, Kearsley, Prestwich areas.
I just ride easy, medium-hard, 'fartlek'/mountain biking or some hard intervals.
I too live on the West side of Manchester and the lack of local gradients is annoying. The nearest hills are bridges over the M62 and the ShIp Canal or there are some near Lymm.
As above, The Horwich area and St Helens-Parbold area are probably the best places locally for hills.
If I ride up Winter Hill I tend to ride from home, along the A6, up through the houses, across the main road and head Onto George's Lane the from the East.
Ps. There are also some short climbs around the Irwell Valley in the Swinton, Kearsley, Prestwich areas.
Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 24th January 08:17
Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 24th January 14:22
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