La Vuelta a Espana
Discussion
Perhaps it was just because I watched only 1 hour of highlights, but it did feel like a bit of an anti-climax.
Such a shame about Froome; seemed a really rubbish crash (much like TdF last year when he did his wrist!). If he was descending and pushing...at least it's because he was on it. But in what are neutral circumstances it seems a waste
Such a shame about Froome; seemed a really rubbish crash (much like TdF last year when he did his wrist!). If he was descending and pushing...at least it's because he was on it. But in what are neutral circumstances it seems a waste
Dr Imran T said:
Amazing ride by Tom D. I am suprised he's managed to keep the main contenders within his sights.
I really never thought he'd win/contest such a difficult grand tour, now I think he's in with a good chance.
Been tremendous racing so far especially watching the GC fight it out.
I'm not surprised at all, he got within 1 minute of Wiggins in the world time trial championship and he's not much heavier.I really never thought he'd win/contest such a difficult grand tour, now I think he's in with a good chance.
Been tremendous racing so far especially watching the GC fight it out.
In fact that's pretty much what he said inspired him in an interview this evening.
Having listened to Millars commentary in the last few days explaining what is occurring in regards to tactics during these mountain finishes I have a question.
He talks about using up team mates during a climb as they set the pace at the front of the group and go 'into the red'. I understand the aerodynamic advantage in sitting behind somebody at speed, but on a 10% gradient at 10mph I would assume that would be minimal. Is it just a psychological thing being in front as the whole group would surely be expending similar energy in that situation? I dont see how it is somehow an easier effort for those behind?
He talks about using up team mates during a climb as they set the pace at the front of the group and go 'into the red'. I understand the aerodynamic advantage in sitting behind somebody at speed, but on a 10% gradient at 10mph I would assume that would be minimal. Is it just a psychological thing being in front as the whole group would surely be expending similar energy in that situation? I dont see how it is somehow an easier effort for those behind?
It's only partly that. It's also because, in keeping the pace of the group high, it makes attacks far less easy.
I.e. if they're doing 10mph, then Rodriguez can pelt up there at 20mph and leave them, because he has energy also. If they've all done 18ph up there, then not only is an attack more difficult because there'll be less differential speed, but also because they won't have as much energy
I.e. if they're doing 10mph, then Rodriguez can pelt up there at 20mph and leave them, because he has energy also. If they've all done 18ph up there, then not only is an attack more difficult because there'll be less differential speed, but also because they won't have as much energy
Ok, I can see how stringing it out can stop attacks. I was thinking as an example of Aru sitting behind 3 teammates as they go up. They slowly peel off one by one as they burn themselves out leaving him to launch an attack somehow having saved energy compared to his teammates. Maybe I have underestimated the speeds involved even going up mountains and there is an aero advantage!
Its also that responding to constant attacks, which would happen if the pace was lower can send you into the red far quicker than keeping a steady but hard pace. But ultimately to win a GT you need to be the strongest at something be it time trialling or climbing, there is no free-ride up a mountain, especially not one as rock hard as yesterday, up an alpe d'uez then there is a bit more draft to be had, there would be not a lot yesterday on those hard bits.
But the leader is the strongest rider, in theory when one of the sky climbers is on the limit, Froome still has something to go as he is stronger than they are.
But the leader is the strongest rider, in theory when one of the sky climbers is on the limit, Froome still has something to go as he is stronger than they are.
In theory before the climbs those same team mates will be taking the wind on the flat and protecting as much as possible to provide there team leader with best possible chance of winning on the climb, if the pace is high on the flat or less hilly sections that can take it's toll.
Also as has been said by setting a higher pace within your leaders optimal output and pace and covering off attacks and bringing them back in all helps, when your body is at it's limits the psychophysical gremlins can creep in if each break you try gets pulled back.
Also as has been said by setting a higher pace within your leaders optimal output and pace and covering off attacks and bringing them back in all helps, when your body is at it's limits the psychophysical gremlins can creep in if each break you try gets pulled back.
dogbucket said:
Having listened to Millars commentary in the last few days explaining what is occurring in regards to tactics during these mountain finishes I have a question.
He talks about using up team mates during a climb as they set the pace at the front of the group and go 'into the red'. I understand the aerodynamic advantage in sitting behind somebody at speed, but on a 10% gradient at 10mph I would assume that would be minimal. Is it just a psychological thing being in front as the whole group would surely be expending similar energy in that situation? I dont see how it is somehow an easier effort for those behind?
I had the same question once but as I'm an engineering geek I went away and did a few calcs.He talks about using up team mates during a climb as they set the pace at the front of the group and go 'into the red'. I understand the aerodynamic advantage in sitting behind somebody at speed, but on a 10% gradient at 10mph I would assume that would be minimal. Is it just a psychological thing being in front as the whole group would surely be expending similar energy in that situation? I dont see how it is somehow an easier effort for those behind?
CDA for a large rider (Wiggins/Froome) bike plus rider 77kg
Power in watts, speed at each gradient closest value to 450w for the leader. Assumption of a 30% drag advantage by being 2-3 people back, being deep in a pack would be an even higher drag reduction.
| Grad. | Mph | Leader | Drafter | % |
| 0 | 27 | 446 | 318 | 71.4% |
| 2.5 | 22 | 432 | 363 | 84.0% |
| 5 | 17 | 440 | 398 | 90.4% |
| 7.5 | 14 | 443 | 420 | 94.7% |
| 10 | 11 | 418 | 406 | 97.3% |
| 12.5 | 10 | 458 | 449 | 98.1% |
Alp D'Huez is 7.9% average, Mont Ventoux is 8.9%, Tourmalet is 7.4%.
A 5% difference in power is normally the difference between being able to sustain an effort for 20 and 60 minutes. The difference will be even higher if following a team mate in an attack.
However the major advantage is that a strong team allows you to set a high pace which is difficult to attack against and stops the protected rider having to chase on their own with their rivals taking the 5% advantage all the way up the mountain and then pipping the at the end. That said if you GC rider is simply 5% better on that day there is relatively little you can do about them.
Edited by Talksteer on Wednesday 9th September 20:58
Granfondo said:
Aru and Astana mugged Tom today!
Great bit of team work!
Was indeed - I'm still disappointed Tom D lost the lead and didn't even get on the podium. He looked truly devastated post race.Great bit of team work!
Solid effort from Aru and not sure what Valverde was doing yesterday but it certainly took its toll on him today.
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