Getting Faster...
Discussion
Although a lot of this has already been covered it looks like things should be reiterated. The OP wants to go faster on the flat, he rides in a pretty flat area so I think we can safely assume he doesn't have 10% hills to ride up nor will he have extended technical descents to work the rest of his body. As Okgo has said he is lacking fitness / threshold power. To improve this he most probably needs to increase his training load be it by more hours, more intensity or a combination of the two.
His best bet would be to use the road bike or trainer as the training load per hour you can achieve is far greater than on the mountain bike as you can pedal for practically the whole time without the inevitable free wheeling that is involved in mtb.
What do I know? I ride mtb as well as road, race regularly in both disciplines and I've had reasonable results. This from coming to cycling around 3 years ago so I have recently been down this path.
His best bet would be to use the road bike or trainer as the training load per hour you can achieve is far greater than on the mountain bike as you can pedal for practically the whole time without the inevitable free wheeling that is involved in mtb.
What do I know? I ride mtb as well as road, race regularly in both disciplines and I've had reasonable results. This from coming to cycling around 3 years ago so I have recently been down this path.
wemorgan said:
All the pro coaches I've heard from recommend exactly this + interval sessions.
I'm yet to read a paper that recommends long distance running and cycling as the best and quickest means to increase speed/pace/strength.
Always happy to be educated though
It will make you stronger, but you don't really need all that much strength for endurance sport, granted you'd need a bit more core strength for MTB over road, but you don't need to be doing hours in the gym for that.I'm yet to read a paper that recommends long distance running and cycling as the best and quickest means to increase speed/pace/strength.
Always happy to be educated though
To get better at endurance sport, which MTB is (downhill exception I suppose) - you need to build your fitness, you will do that by doing more, mixing up intensities and generally as I said on the first page, the more you train, the more you can train, and the fitter you become. There are no easy shortcuts, I know this as I've done 10-12 hours of cycling every week for the last 5 years to try and get faster/fitter 'stronger' on the bike. A chap I know through time trials (elite mountain biker) does a hell of a lot on his mtb and his road bike, I know he knows how it works, but he is a good example of someone who mixes it up between road and mtb to build the engine!
tjdixon911 said:
I'm hoping to commute by bike a bit more when the days are longer, hopefully this will help over the summer period - I wouldn't fancy my commute during the winter months by bike though.
I would have thought an all year round commute is paramount in building up speed & strength.You are sounding like a fair weather cyclist OP , HTFU Dude.
Black can man said:
I would have thought an all year round commute is paramount in building up speed & strength.
You are sounding like a fair weather cyclist OP , HTFU Dude.
If I could commute all year round I would - my job isn't that simple and being 25miles (the closest I have been for 10+ years) I don't fancy the dark country lanes through the winter. You are sounding like a fair weather cyclist OP , HTFU Dude.
I'm not a fair weather cyclist at all - I am quite proud that in 2015 I rode every Tuesday night bar 3 or 4, 1 due to holiday and others were switched to an alternative nights - I go out what ever the weather so don't have a problem with that...
nacnac said:
Although a lot of this has already been covered it looks like things should be reiterated. The OP wants to go faster on the flat, he rides in a pretty flat area so I think we can safely assume he doesn't have 10% hills to ride up nor will he have extended technical descents to work the rest of his body. As Okgo has said he is lacking fitness / threshold power. To improve this he most probably needs to increase his training load be it by more hours, more intensity or a combination of the two.
His best bet would be to use the road bike or trainer as the training load per hour you can achieve is far greater than on the mountain bike as you can pedal for practically the whole time without the inevitable free wheeling that is involved in mtb.
What do I know? I ride mtb as well as road, race regularly in both disciplines and I've had reasonable results. This from coming to cycling around 3 years ago so I have recently been down this path.
Thanks - I need to get myself a trainer, I actually cleared some space for one last night - any recommendations...His best bet would be to use the road bike or trainer as the training load per hour you can achieve is far greater than on the mountain bike as you can pedal for practically the whole time without the inevitable free wheeling that is involved in mtb.
What do I know? I ride mtb as well as road, race regularly in both disciplines and I've had reasonable results. This from coming to cycling around 3 years ago so I have recently been down this path.
Have been looking at fluid units, I know these are at the cheaper end but are they any good?
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/jet-black/z2-f...
http://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/tra...
I could get another circa 20% off the halfords one so they are similar price..
Edited by tjdixon911 on Friday 5th February 10:48
nacnac said:
okgo said:
snorkel sucker said:
On the basis that "most" of the OPs mileage is MTB, then 50-75 miles a week off road is a decent amount.
On the basis that "most" of the OPs mileage is MTB, then it would be fair to assume the OP is a mountain biker, primarily at least.
Road Cycling is great for putting the miles in and upping your endurance but it doesn't even remotely hold a candle to the effort required to punt a mountain bike round for the same period.
Most pro and elite level enduro and DH bikers use their road bikes to get the miles in and up their endurance but gym work is as, if not more important for a mountain biker.
End of the day, it depends what aspect the OP wants to improve, assuming they exist like the rest of us in a time restricted environment. The quality of the miles is key and, no, there is definitely no harm in doing strength work to help with becoming a better mountain biker. In fact, if you want to be a better mountain biker, strength and mobility are just as important as having a decent pair of lungs.
You can easily make a road bike ride as hard as you want, just ride harder. MTB isn't some dark art that defies physics you know. He said his brother rides away from him on the flat, ergo, he isn't fit enough. On the basis that "most" of the OPs mileage is MTB, then it would be fair to assume the OP is a mountain biker, primarily at least.
Road Cycling is great for putting the miles in and upping your endurance but it doesn't even remotely hold a candle to the effort required to punt a mountain bike round for the same period.
Most pro and elite level enduro and DH bikers use their road bikes to get the miles in and up their endurance but gym work is as, if not more important for a mountain biker.
End of the day, it depends what aspect the OP wants to improve, assuming they exist like the rest of us in a time restricted environment. The quality of the miles is key and, no, there is definitely no harm in doing strength work to help with becoming a better mountain biker. In fact, if you want to be a better mountain biker, strength and mobility are just as important as having a decent pair of lungs.
Alternatively, if you want to fawn over the person who features in the all time fastest 10 and 25 mile TT lists then fill your boots.
Hopefully the OP has been able to gather from all the useful posts that a combination of mileage, intensity, strength and power are all key to becoming a better, faster rider.
Pretty much what I said in my first post. Good luck OP, hope you get what you want, and, importantly, enjoy riding. End of the day that is what it's about for most people.
wemorgan said:
All the pro coaches I've heard from recommend exactly this + interval sessions.
I'm yet to read a paper that recommends long distance running and cycling as the best and quickest means to increase speed/pace/strength.
Always happy to be educated though
Pro coaches are working with people who already do about as much volume as is possible, what a highly trained / elite athlete needs to do to get a bit more out is very different from the average casual rider. There are also a lot of charlatans who are just like you and me, but got a qualification (or possibly even didn't), and spout whatever is the latest they read. Strength training and core seems to be the fad-de-jour IMHO.I'm yet to read a paper that recommends long distance running and cycling as the best and quickest means to increase speed/pace/strength.
Always happy to be educated though
I think we're all agreed on intervals. Beyond that, given a bike has gears (aka a force multiplier), absolute strenth is way down the list of requirements. For the vast majority of folks, what they need is more aerobic fitness.. AKA ride more, and in a lot of cases ride harder / more consistently when you do.
tjdixon911 said:
pembo said:
Have you considered the gearing might be the issue?
I run a 36 chainring on my cyclocross bike and there was a long straight section last week where I was spinning like crazy going 25mph. Perhaps a bigger chainring will give you more speed on the straights?
Yes, I have considered this - my brother runs a double with a 38t outer so I am slightly under geared in comparison. I run a 36 chainring on my cyclocross bike and there was a long straight section last week where I was spinning like crazy going 25mph. Perhaps a bigger chainring will give you more speed on the straights?
I initially purchased a Narrow Wide 38t but it fouled the frame when running a SRAM crank, I've since changed to an XT crank which seems to have spaced the ring out further so maybe worth trying a 38t again (especially with Superstars offer this week...) - I sold the last one..
OP, work on higher cadence ability as that'll help you go faster on the flat. I get choppy at about 120rpm and above, but 100rpm on a 32x11 (my longest gear, on 26" wheels) equates to 23mph which is plenty on the flat off road!
I ride both road and MTB and the biggest gain I notice is after hill repeats (and a few days of recovery) but as the OP is in East Anglia that would be hard to do.
I ride about 5000 miles a year, probably 80/20 road/mtb, and have hit the plateau; I don't feel like I am much better than a few years ago, and if look at segments, I have more in 2013 than any other year. Until recently I haven't trained in an organised way, I have gone out on the bike and maybe hit one or two hills or segments hard, maybe pushed for 5 or 10 minutes here and there, or if I have a tail wind I've pushed myself along a bit harder than without.
I've read recently about doing varied intervals to train your various heart rate zones which I am now trying to do.
Out of interest, would anyone care to guess how much harder an MTB ride is than a road ride? I think it is around 1.5 times, but it can depend on how boggy the trails are, and how much windier it is up on the Downs than in between the hedges in the lanes.
I ride about 5000 miles a year, probably 80/20 road/mtb, and have hit the plateau; I don't feel like I am much better than a few years ago, and if look at segments, I have more in 2013 than any other year. Until recently I haven't trained in an organised way, I have gone out on the bike and maybe hit one or two hills or segments hard, maybe pushed for 5 or 10 minutes here and there, or if I have a tail wind I've pushed myself along a bit harder than without.
I've read recently about doing varied intervals to train your various heart rate zones which I am now trying to do.
Out of interest, would anyone care to guess how much harder an MTB ride is than a road ride? I think it is around 1.5 times, but it can depend on how boggy the trails are, and how much windier it is up on the Downs than in between the hedges in the lanes.
Daveyraveygravey said:
Out of interest, would anyone care to guess how much harder an MTB ride is than a road ride? I think it is around 1.5 times, but it can depend on how boggy the trails are, and how much windier it is up on the Downs than in between the hedges in the lanes.
Might as well ask how many MAMILs can dance on the head of a carbon fibre skewer, but I think you're in the right ballpark 
loudlashadjuster said:
Daveyraveygravey said:
Out of interest, would anyone care to guess how much harder an MTB ride is than a road ride? I think it is around 1.5 times, but it can depend on how boggy the trails are, and how much windier it is up on the Downs than in between the hedges in the lanes.
Might as well ask how many MAMILs can dance on the head of a carbon fibre skewer, but I think you're in the right ballpark I do t have a MTB but I work harder during a 45 min CX race than a 60min chain gang!
Steve
MTB is not harder than road. Road is not harder than MTB, either is as hard or as easy as you want to make it. To suggest otherwise is a bit dim IMO. Time spent doing said styles is going to mean you go further on the road, but distance is only something new cyclists tend to care about, most people train by hours vs distance.
Agree MTB and road are as hard as you make it, b
ks to "1.5 times harder" Ive done both loads, different types of fitness at times although lots of crossover
If you are going to argue that MTBing is harder , why do all the big slopes need a bikelift to the top??? <BANTER>
People always laugh when I say I prefer 90 miles of hills to 90 miles of flat road miles, my fitness and weight favours hills, sitting in the same potion on the flat for hours being consistent doesn't suit my ability, when many would argue 90 miles of flat is easier!
Always remember that MTB/Road/commuting is just riding a bike, not brain surgery, if you want to go faster lose excess weight and train harder
ks to "1.5 times harder" Ive done both loads, different types of fitness at times although lots of crossoverIf you are going to argue that MTBing is harder , why do all the big slopes need a bikelift to the top??? <BANTER>
People always laugh when I say I prefer 90 miles of hills to 90 miles of flat road miles, my fitness and weight favours hills, sitting in the same potion on the flat for hours being consistent doesn't suit my ability, when many would argue 90 miles of flat is easier!
Always remember that MTB/Road/commuting is just riding a bike, not brain surgery, if you want to go faster lose excess weight and train harder
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Friday 5th February 14:18
tjdixon911 said:
Thanks - I need to get myself a trainer, I actually cleared some space for one last night - any recommendations...
Have been looking at fluid units, I know these are at the cheaper end but are they any good?
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/jet-black/z2-f...
http://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/tra...
I could get another circa 20% off the halfords one so they are similar price..
I would also consider magnetic trainers is you didn't want to spend too much money. (Which can be half the price of a fluid trainer) Having ridden both I fully understand that fluid gives you more progressive feel and the convenience of not having to adjust the resistance but if your turbo is for supplemented training and not substituting riding then do you really need the realistic/progressive feel? I simply adjust the resistance or change gears between intervals, I don't feel that at my level I need any more than that?! The pain and the sweat is what counts... Have been looking at fluid units, I know these are at the cheaper end but are they any good?
http://www.evanscycles.com/products/jet-black/z2-f...
http://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo-trainers/tra...
I could get another circa 20% off the halfords one so they are similar price..
Edited by tjdixon911 on Friday 5th February 10:48
Banana Boy said:
I would also consider magnetic trainers is you didn't want to spend too much money. (Which can be half the price of a fluid trainer) Having ridden both I fully understand that fluid gives you more progressive feel and the convenience of not having to adjust the resistance but if your turbo is for supplemented training and not substituting riding then do you really need the realistic/progressive feel? I simply adjust the resistance or change gears between intervals, I don't feel that at my level I need any more than that?! The pain and the sweat is what counts...
I had previously asked for opinions on this http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/... - annoyingly it was £50 a couple of weeks ago.tjdixon911 said:
I had previously asked for opinions on this http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/... - annoyingly it was £50 a couple of weeks ago.
I've got one, I paid £50 but I think it would still be good value at £65. They do a turbo tyre for £5 that works well with it. You can get 10% off with your BC membership card if you have one.Banana Boy said:
I would also consider magnetic trainers is you didn't want to spend too much money. (Which can be half the price of a fluid trainer) Having ridden both I fully understand that fluid gives you more progressive feel and the convenience of not having to adjust the resistance but if your turbo is for supplemented training and not substituting riding then do you really need the realistic/progressive feel? I simply adjust the resistance or change gears between intervals, I don't feel that at my level I need any more than that?! The pain and the sweat is what counts...
I had previously asked for opinions on this http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/... - annoyingly it was £50 a couple of weeks ago.tjdixon911 said:
I had previously asked for opinions on this http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/... - annoyingly it was £50 a couple of weeks ago.
It's the Elite Volare that I have and I find it perfect for the type of structured sessions we've been talking about. I paid £70 2nd hand off ebay a few months ago but that came with a riser block and Schwalbe Insider tyre. tjdixon911 said:
While on the Turbo Trainer - should I be monitoring cadence, speed, distance, Heart Rate?
Currently all I have is a Garmin Edge 200 which will only measure time inside and none of the above, what do I need?
Heart rate is a very useful training tool. A Polar heart rate strap will talk to many smart phones via BLE.Currently all I have is a Garmin Edge 200 which will only measure time inside and none of the above, what do I need?
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