When could my car have won an F1 race?

When could my car have won an F1 race?

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Discussion

FunkyNige

Original Poster:

8,859 posts

274 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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Had a thought when commuting in boring diesel hatchback this morning – how far back in time would I have to go before my car could win a Grand Prix? I’m guessing in the 1930s but that’s a complete guess and not really based on anything other than stuff got a lot more advanced in WW2 so were probably quicker after that…

Car is a 2 litre diesel A3 –
0 to 62 mph 8.5 secs
Max power 150 PS @ 3200 rpm
Max torque 340 Nm @ 1750 rpm
Top speed 135 mph
Unladen weight 1275 kg

Eric Mc

121,788 posts

264 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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It couldn't have won an F1 race any year before 1946 because F1 only came into being that year.

Taking the whole history of Grand Prix racing however, which dates back to 1906, I would suggest that a Grand Prix car of the late 1920s would outperform your current car.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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Formula 1 didn't start until the early 1950s, I think you're correct in saying you'd have to go back further than that... Probably back to one of the pre crossflow era 1000cc / 1100cc front engined drum braked cars.

Edited by HustleRussell on Friday 29th July 08:49

Eric Mc

121,788 posts

264 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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A bit of a time line is in order -

1906 - First race to Grand Prix rules

1946 - Formula 1 set up (initially called Formula A)

1950 - World Driver's Championship for Grands Prix set up (not required to be all F1 races either and not all F1 races counted as Grand Prix)

1958 - World Construction Championship set up.

Redlake27

2,255 posts

243 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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It's a really interesting question, so it made me look at the Historic racing lap times around Donington, a circuit I have driven in many road and race cars.


As a baseline, a modern F1 car could lap Donington in fifty-ish seconds, based on the Historic F1 lap record of 57 seconds.

A 1970s F1 car can lap Donington in 1m04s.
A 1930s Bugatti GP car can do it in 1m 30s.

As a benchmark, the current BTCC record is 1m10s

If we look at contemporary production race cars that use road legal cut slick type tyres:

Porsche Boxster S modified - 1m 20s
Caterham RoadSport - 1m22s
Mazda MX5 1.6 Production Spec - 1m 28s
Ferrari 328GTB - 1m24s
Golf Gti VAG Trophy - 1m 27s
BMW 328i E36 in track day trophy - 1m24s

Put standard suspension and road tyres on these and you can add 10-15% to the lap time.

Some road cars that I've driven around Donington:

Lotus Europa SE - 1m 23s
Lotus Elise 135hp - 1m 28s
Sea Leon FR - 1m 32s
Fiat Punto HGT - 1m39s



I reckon that your A3 Tdi could be pedalled around Donington in stock form in the 1m 35 - 1m 40s. Put on a set of sticky tyres, it may be 1m30 - 1m 35s. Turn it into a race car (strip out 200kgs, give it 200hp and uprate the brakes etc), you may get into the high 1m20s



So, by my crude reckoning, you would be battling with the back end of a 1920s GP grid (and me in that Punto).









lord summerisle

8,138 posts

224 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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Redlake27 said:
It's a really interesting question, so it made me look at the Historic racing lap times around Donington, a circuit I have driven in many road and race cars.


As a baseline, a modern F1 car could lap Donington in fifty-ish seconds, based on the Historic F1 lap record of 57 seconds.

A 1970s F1 car can lap Donington in 1m04s.
A 1930s Bugatti GP car can do it in 1m 30s.

As a benchmark, the current BTCC record is 1m10s

If we look at contemporary production race cars that use road legal cut slick type tyres:

Porsche Boxster S modified - 1m 20s
Caterham RoadSport - 1m22s
Mazda MX5 1.6 Production Spec - 1m 28s
Ferrari 328GTB - 1m24s
Golf Gti VAG Trophy - 1m 27s
BMW 328i E36 in track day trophy - 1m24s

Put standard suspension and road tyres on these and you can add 10-15% to the lap time.

Some road cars that I've driven around Donington:

Lotus Europa SE - 1m 23s
Lotus Elise 135hp - 1m 28s
Sea Leon FR - 1m 32s
Fiat Punto HGT - 1m39s



I reckon that your A3 Tdi could be pedalled around Donington in stock form in the 1m 35 - 1m 40s. Put on a set of sticky tyres, it may be 1m30 - 1m 35s. Turn it into a race car (strip out 200kgs, give it 200hp and uprate the brakes etc), you may get into the high 1m20s



So, by my crude reckoning, you would be battling with the back end of a 1920s GP grid (and me in that Punto).
In a similar vein - looking at the VSCC results from Oulton Park this year: the ERA R3A (1934 2.0litre) lapped the international circuit in 2:22 (ave speed about 67/68mph)
Caterham lists the lap records for their series: http://uk.caterhamcars.com/sites/default/files/con...
the lap record for the Catrerham Academy car is a 2:04.5

Eric Mc

121,788 posts

264 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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One of the problems is that modern racing of historic cars doesn't really give an accurate indication of what the cars did in period. An ERA racing today is probably in better mechanical shape - with better tyres - running on better surfaces, than it did when new in the 1930s.

There is a lovely photo in this month's Motorsport of Jimmy Murphy racing in the Duesenberg at the 1921 French GP. The road surface is appalling - much closer to what we would now look on as an off road rallying surface.



I wonder how a modern road car (non race or rally prepared) would cope with a road like that for up to four hours of being pushed to the limit.

GCH

3,984 posts

201 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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GCH said:
Good job that was a 25 year old mclaren, todays would have had trouble catching that concerto on the straight...

GCH

3,984 posts

201 months

Friday 29th July 2016
quotequote all
hairyben said:
Good job that was a 25 year old mclaren, todays would have had trouble catching that concerto on the straight...
hehe

kambites

67,463 posts

220 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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As other people have said, the answer is probably "never". smile

Edited by kambites on Friday 29th July 15:46

Sigmamark7

314 posts

160 months

Friday 29th July 2016
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Eric Mc said:
One of the problems is that modern racing of historic cars doesn't really give an accurate indication of what the cars did in period. An ERA racing today is probably in better mechanical shape - with better tyres - running on better surfaces, than it did when new in the 1930s.

There is a lovely photo in this month's Motorsport of Jimmy Murphy racing in the Duesenberg at the 1921 French GP. The road surface is appalling - much closer to what we would now look on as an off road rallying surface.



I wonder how a modern road car (non race or rally prepared) would cope with a road like that for up to four hours of being pushed to the limit.
That looks like a typical A road in Gloucestershire!!!

Hub

6,413 posts

197 months

Sunday 31st July 2016
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Aren't those just the 'marbles'?

Gary C

12,315 posts

178 months

Sunday 31st July 2016
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Reminds me of an 80's tv advert that proposes the vary same thing.

As I remember it had a red Quattro with everything else in black and white with a bunch of vintage race cars.

Think it might have been a tyre advert (wasn't an Audi advert)

Has the vioice over along the lines of "if you entered your performance car in a 1950's GP, it would probably win"

Can't find it online though. Anyone else remember it ?

hora

37,013 posts

210 months

Sunday 31st July 2016
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"2 litre diesel A3" glamorous stuff wink

Redlake27

2,255 posts

243 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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Even a modern sportscar, say a 911 Carrera, would struggle to beat a 60 year old GP car, based on the Donington lap times. I'm full of admiration for the drivers and designers from that er.

456GT

301 posts

177 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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Would pit stops make a difference, though? I imagine a modern diesel would go a race distance quite comfortably without stopping.

CraigyMc

16,333 posts

235 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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456GT said:
Would pit stops make a difference, though? I imagine a modern diesel would go a race distance quite comfortably without stopping.
Depends on the track you'd run on, I recon.
As previously noted, the early GP cars ran on early roads, and had suspension tough enough to cope (at least, in theory..).
An A3 has neither the ground clearance nor the compliance to cope with rough tracks at high speed.

I agree; the answer to the question posed is "never", and that's both for F1 (because the A3 isn't quick enough on good surfaces) and pre-F1 GP (because it's not tough enough to cope with the surfaces those raced on at speed).

Even places like Brooklands (purpose built racetrack, circa 1907) are too rough for a modern road car at the speeds of prewar GP cars.
See photo.

Most of the photos I have of that era have airborne cars because of the bumps. Try that in an A3 - it won't last very long.
If you're wondering about the speeds of these early years, the one-hour average speed record round the Brooklands track was 103mph, set in 1913.

100mph in a modern road car on a straight, flat road is easy-peasy.
On a 2¾ mile oval it'd spend a lot of time braking and a lot more time accelerating, so even if it was a smooth surface, I'm not sure it'd do all that well.

Eric Mc

121,788 posts

264 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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By the 1930s Brooklands was in very poor shape. The track was built in 1907 and after 20 plus years the concrete had buckled and corroded. It is doubtful if it could have been used much beyond the 1940s without a massive amount of investment. As it was, the Second World War made sure Brooklands had had its day.

Schermerhorn

4,342 posts

188 months

Monday 1st August 2016
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When the others ran out of fuel biggrin