More disk brake in the peleton problems

More disk brake in the peleton problems

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Discussion

Don1

Original Poster:

15,936 posts

207 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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For cobbled classics, sure, why not?

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Don1 said:
For cobbled classics, sure, why not?
why not for all road races? It would improve control, grip, handling, comfort.

Don1

Original Poster:

15,936 posts

207 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Kawasicki said:
why not for all road races? It would improve control, grip, handling, comfort.
Not sure, maybe, not sure, yes. wink

Seriously though, I can't see how brake dive with suspension can help handling?

Big Rod

6,198 posts

215 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Kawasicki said:
Chicken Chaser said:
Discs do provide an advantage on big descents. Not everyone in the pro peloton is an insane bike handler nor are they gung ho. Some are clearly better than others at throwing themselves downhill. Discs allow greater modulation, less fade and more confidence in stopping, particularly in the dry. Anyone who suggests rim brakes are as good as discs simply haven't tried them downhill. I didn't like the idea of discs on road bikes at first but since trying them I am converted, whether they look good or not.
Front and rear suspension optimised for road courses would also offer handling and road holding advantages.

I wonder if we will see full suspension pro road race bikes soon?
My carbon road bike is built to be flexible to offer an element of absorption over uneven surfaces, (it also has cable/hydro disc brakes). The ride quality is exceptional compared to my alu' framed bike.

So maybe you don't need to go the whole hog with suspension on road bikes, just build a bit of flex into the frame. Kind'a amounts to the same thing as riding with a little les pressure in your tyres I guess.

mcelliott

8,626 posts

180 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Don1 said:
For cobbled classics, sure, why not?
It's already been done, I can't be bothered to find the link, but google Steve Bauer's P-R bike.

Matt_N

8,900 posts

201 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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As already mentioned full sus has already been explored in road bikes.

Plus, look at the new Roubaix with its suspension unit in the head tube and the Pinarello K8-S with its rear suspension unit.

JustinF

6,795 posts

202 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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disks are great for us average Joe cafe run riders, not needed in the pro peloton, unfortunately it's win on Sunday sell on Monday so they are being forced upon them.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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upsidedownmark said:
1) Because they stick out in places you are likely to contact a way that the aforementioned items do not..
Well, except that's pretty much rubbish. A small disc, right in the middle of a massive wheel and tyre mean it's actually rather hard to come into contact with the disc. Try it, get a wheel and tyre and hit yourself with it, it's really hard to get hit with the disc. And then you put the frame around it for even more protection.

Contrast that with the chain ring. big, spikey, and sticks out the bottom of the bike like a circular saw. And yet nobodys ever claimed they were dangerous!

Us MTBers have been riding with (massive!) discbrakes for years, and we've been falling off left right and centre for years, and yet we are not being sliced to pieces by our discs, so what makes you roadies any different??

joema

2,644 posts

178 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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darwinism...

Razor O Rourke

62 posts

89 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Max_Torque said:
Well, except that's pretty much rubbish. A small disc, right in the middle of a massive wheel and tyre mean it's actually rather hard to come into contact with the disc. Try it, get a wheel and tyre and hit yourself with it, it's really hard to get hit with the disc. And then you put the frame around it for even more protection.

Contrast that with the chain ring. big, spikey, and sticks out the bottom of the bike like a circular saw. And yet nobodys ever claimed they were dangerous!

Us MTBers have been riding with (massive!) discbrakes for years, and we've been falling off left right and centre for years, and yet we are not being sliced to pieces by our discs, so what makes you roadies any different??
And isn't it lucky that wheels aren't built with 32 thin bits of wire protruding from the hub to the rim, imagine getting an arm or a leg caught in those?

It's also funny how you don't hear about Moto GP riders having limbs severed by their huge discs when they chuck their bikes down the road at 150mph plus.

Every new innovation in cycling during the fifty years I've been involved has had people queuing up to dismiss it as either unnecessary, dangerous or unreliable, often all three. Indexing, clipless pedals, integrated shifting, computers, aluminium, carbon fibre, etc etc. And you know what? Five years down the line the naysayers wouldn't be seen dead on anything else.

m444ttb

3,160 posts

228 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Razor O Rourke said:
Every new innovation in cycling during the fifty years I've been involved has had people queuing up to dismiss it as either unnecessary, dangerous or unreliable, often all three. Indexing, clipless pedals, integrated shifting, computers, aluminium, carbon fibre, etc etc. And you know what? Five years down the line the naysayers wouldn't be seen dead on anything else.
Don't forget that invention of the devil, the rear derailleur. What sort of man needs one of those?! And in pro cycling team support, turbo trainer warm up/down and many other things. I see some people use the example of wider tyres as something that has gone away and come back. They only went away became the pros will always take whatever they think will make them faster. Even at the expense of comfort. Turns out on wider tyres they were wrong so they've come back.

Clearly not all anti-disc pro riders think they are dangerous in a crash (cuts etc) either. Quite a number seem to think a mixed peloton means they will cause a crash because they're better. Personally I don't think outright braking performance in optimum conditions is better, but across a wider range of conditions they're more consistent and you can modulate them much better. Something many will talk about being being a desirable braking quality elsewhere on this forum. Personally I'd take hydraulic discs every time now. Mechanical discs haven't impressed me hugely on the one bike I have with them. Eventually they'll be replaced with hydraulics.

lukefreeman

1,492 posts

174 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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R1gtr said:
I am an idiot? I didn't say they don't produce disc models did I? I said they have not embraced and pushed the technology as much as some of the other companies. Discs perform better and now wheels can be built without compromise (brake track). Carbon wheels become much more viable.
You can choose to dismiss disc brakes for whatever reason you want but doing it on style is a bit dumb. Take it you only run 9 speed 12-23 cassette as big cogs are ugly as sin or have you embraced progress and moved on to 11 speed 11-28?
How do you push/embrace? Sell it on bikes, and that's exactly what those companies do?


I run a 11-23, 12-25 or 11-28 depending on ride too. Big cogs are ugly though. As are alloy rims with carbon fairings.

R1gtr

3,424 posts

153 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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lukefreeman said:
As are alloy rims with carbon fairings.
I agree with you on this

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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smifffymoto said:
pablo said:
smifffymoto said:
I have just bought a disc equiped bike,why?
Simply because I wanted to and I had the choice.You can choose to stick with rim brakes if you like but progress is marching on.
If wheels don't have to withstand braking heat and force I wonder if wheel development will see some changes.
The disc brake is still reliant on the contract patch on the road though, which is the tyres. If you need help modulating brake power or whatever the marketing people have told you discs offer, then the very last place you should be cycling is an alpine descent in the rain...

It's not progress, it's something different. It offers an advantage in some situations like winter commuting but the pros, who are a lot better at bike handling than us, just don't need disc brakes.... look at Froome descending, he barely touched the brakes, just adopted a crazy position and held on for dear life, add others have said that stage want won because he had better braking capability compared to others...
If it is only something different,why are so many people getting their knickers in a twist.Usually you talk sense but not on this topic.It's about choice,use disc brakes or calipers,I don't care,it's your choice.
I completely agree, I just think the reasons people are choosing disc brakes are silly.

upsidedownmark

2,120 posts

134 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Max_Torque said:
upsidedownmark said:
1) Because they stick out in places you are likely to contact a way that the aforementioned items do not..
Well, except that's pretty much rubbish. A small disc, right in the middle of a massive wheel and tyre mean it's actually rather hard to come into contact with the disc. Try it, get a wheel and tyre and hit yourself with it, it's really hard to get hit with the disc. And then you put the frame around it for even more protection.

Contrast that with the chain ring. big, spikey, and sticks out the bottom of the bike like a circular saw. And yet nobodys ever claimed they were dangerous!

Us MTBers have been riding with (massive!) discbrakes for years, and we've been falling off left right and centre for years, and yet we are not being sliced to pieces by our discs, so what makes you roadies any different??
Perhaps the fact that we tend to ride in tight bunches; bike in front slows up a bit quick, very very easy to overlap and get your foot near the (rear) disc. Chainrings not so much - I tend not to be underneath someone else's bike, and most of the time crashes happen when you're in the big ring with the chain covering it.

And yes, I love discs on my mountainbike. Utterly different.

In any case, pretty much everything since the first half dozen responses simply reinforce my point 2.
upsidedownmark said:
2) Because 99% of folks seem to be vehemently pro, or vehemently anti with little logic or openess to debate, so every thread descends into a tribal war.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Sunday 26th February 19:12

millen

688 posts

85 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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My experience: I built a lightish road bike this January for use in the Surrey hills, to replace a rim-braked Ribble stolen before Xmas. After some research I settled on TRP Spyre cable discs, starting with weanie lightweight Ashima 140mm rotors (but fully expecting to have to revert to 160mm if these were inadequate). Was cautious on first few rides (1st bike I've built) but amazed to see on Strava that, without trying, I was materially (5-10%) quicker on two twisty 400ft descents off Leith Hill than my previous PB's set last summer, despite surface now being damp/dry.

So I won't be going back to rim-brakes any time soon. But then I'm a feeble rider so need every assistance I can get smile

Other factors: I run Chinese carbon clinchers and have seen reports that rim brakes can erode the braking surfaces quite rapidly in winter cruds. Also, some ultra long distance guys say discs are easier to modulate and apply force when hands are cold and wet and numb.

I'd have liked hydraulic discs but couldn't justify the extra expense at this stage. So far, cables are good enough for me and a noticeable benefit in the wet.

Just my thoughts....




JustinF

6,795 posts

202 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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you did research and settled on cable operated?!

AndrewEH1

4,917 posts

152 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Anyone got a video link to the crash?

millen

688 posts

85 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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JustinF said:
you did research and settled on cable operated?!
Yep - Spyres have both pads pivoting symmetrically, unlike the older-design Avids where one pad does the work and the other floats freely, supposedly requiring frequent adjustment. They were good enough for Emily Chappell in the TCR. I've used Jagwire compressionless cable which improves feel (though threading the rear brake cable through the frame was a real pig of a job!).

Cost was indeed a factor. Managed to find a near-new Ultegra set (sans callipers) for £350. Buying new hydraulic shifters would've added a lot to the cost. Yes I know you get better modulation with hydraulics but I suspect that's more crucial for gnarly off-road runs, descending over slippery tree trunks etc.

A guy I rode with in the cycle club this morning runs TRP HyRDs - the hybrid cable operated hydraulic callipers. He likes them - they exert more stopping force I gather.

Chicken Chaser

7,744 posts

223 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Ive tried all 3 types of road discs in the past month, and it comes down to how well they are setup. The mechanical ones are good, and the semi hydraulic ones seem to be more consistent in how good they are, whereas some of the mechanical ones I tried were no better than a set of rim brakes. The full hydraulic system is however, superb and I couldnt find a set that wasn't.