How comfy are time-trial bikes for long distances?
Discussion
If you were going to spend 12 hours/day for about 8 consecutive days on a bike, a large portion of which will be on the flat, would you use a road bike with aerobars or a full-on time-trial bike?
I want to save energy where possible, but am a bit concerned that spending this much time on a time-trial bike might not be manageable.
Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing?
I want to save energy where possible, but am a bit concerned that spending this much time on a time-trial bike might not be manageable.
Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing?
samwilliams said:
Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing?
Of spending several hours on a bike for 14 consecutive days, yes, time trial bike, no.Given the choice I'd take the road bike with clip on aero bars so you have multiple hand positions and can sit up occasionally to give your back and neck muscles a rest.
Is this for Race Across America? There was a chap called Jim Rees who did it a few years ago who got so bad from being in one position all the time he had to have some scaffolding made up from plastic pipes to support his neck because he couldn't hold his head up otherwise.
Your torso will be supported by your arms, so this will help reduce any saddle related problems from spending so much time on the bike - however, are your arms and shoulders up to it?
Also, what sort of roads are you riding? Will you realistically be able to spend long chunks of time in the tuck position?
I would investigate a comfortable road bike (perhaps slightly undersized to lower the headset height) and then fit tri-bars to the normal drops. This would give you a compromise tuck positions, but crucially a range of positions with greater control.
Finally, when considering wheels, I would be sceptical about deep rims. Riding for a whole day with a prevailing crosswind would be a mighty pain.
Also, what sort of roads are you riding? Will you realistically be able to spend long chunks of time in the tuck position?
I would investigate a comfortable road bike (perhaps slightly undersized to lower the headset height) and then fit tri-bars to the normal drops. This would give you a compromise tuck positions, but crucially a range of positions with greater control.
Finally, when considering wheels, I would be sceptical about deep rims. Riding for a whole day with a prevailing crosswind would be a mighty pain.
Thanks for the suggestions. The roads are mostly fairly straight and quiet, so it should be possible to stay in a tuck position for quite lengthy periods.
I'm definitely leaning towards the road bike with aerobars approach, especially having seen the neck problems people in the past have faced, and they weren't even on tt bikes (although they were doing the race solo, so spent considerably longer in the saddle than I will).
That's a good point about the deep rims too. I'm going to have two bikes, so may have one set of deep rims and one not-so-deep, so I can pick the best ones depending on the conditions!
I'm definitely leaning towards the road bike with aerobars approach, especially having seen the neck problems people in the past have faced, and they weren't even on tt bikes (although they were doing the race solo, so spent considerably longer in the saddle than I will).
That's a good point about the deep rims too. I'm going to have two bikes, so may have one set of deep rims and one not-so-deep, so I can pick the best ones depending on the conditions!
samwilliams said:
Thanks for the suggestions. The roads are mostly fairly straight and quiet, so it should be possible to stay in a tuck position for quite lengthy periods.
I'm definitely leaning towards the road bike with aerobars approach, especially having seen the neck problems people in the past have faced, and they weren't even on tt bikes (although they were doing the race solo, so spent considerably longer in the saddle than I will).
That's a good point about the deep rims too. I'm going to have two bikes, so may have one set of deep rims and one not-so-deep, so I can pick the best ones depending on the conditions!
Don't get a road bike with clipon aerobars, as your hip angle will be too tight (compromising power and breathing), and also it will handle very badly with the weight futher forward. You'd be better off using a TT bike with road bars and clipon aerobars.I'm definitely leaning towards the road bike with aerobars approach, especially having seen the neck problems people in the past have faced, and they weren't even on tt bikes (although they were doing the race solo, so spent considerably longer in the saddle than I will).
That's a good point about the deep rims too. I'm going to have two bikes, so may have one set of deep rims and one not-so-deep, so I can pick the best ones depending on the conditions!
Jacobyte said:
With a proper fitting the TT bike will be very comfortable over a long distance. Add a decent amount of training and it's a no-brainer.
Really - 12 hours a day on proper TT bike. Sorry, but I don't believe that's the best option for one minute. Their primary design goal is to put the rider in an optimum aerodynamic and aerodynamic position NOT to be comfortable. A good road race bike would be a far better option IMO. Seems to work ok for the TdF chaps.
Jacobyte said:
If you want comfy, get a recumbent 
There's a lot to be said for comfort in day long racing though. When we were looking at building and selling a mountain bike tandem (we got as far as a prototype design), the company we chose to build the prototype - Litech - showed us some papers produced by the Russian Sports Science institute on the effects of frame materials on race performance. The purpose of study was to determine which materials are best and how stiff frames should be. Magnesium frames came out the best because of the inherent damping properties of the material (the paper was produced in pre CF days). The conclusion was that the frame tested minimised fatigue from road "buzz". You cannot dismiss comfort in racing - there is an energy overhead in adopting an aero position, that over time becomes a big contributor to rider fatigue. If the tuck position was so effective the TDF guys would ride on the drops of the bars all the time, and they don't - even in a solo break away.
I remember watching an interview with Cancellara, saying that the longest he's spent on a TT bike was 6.5 hours in training and that it was too much and he was in pain the next day.
If he thinks that 6.5 hours is too much, I can't see Joe Bloggs hacking 12 hours per day for 8 straight days!
It's tempting though...when you watch the pros on the TT bikes, it does look very comfortable, tucked in, body propped up on the elbows, like you've removed the demands on the rest of your body and the only thing in the world you need to think about is keeping the legs going.
If he thinks that 6.5 hours is too much, I can't see Joe Bloggs hacking 12 hours per day for 8 straight days!
It's tempting though...when you watch the pros on the TT bikes, it does look very comfortable, tucked in, body propped up on the elbows, like you've removed the demands on the rest of your body and the only thing in the world you need to think about is keeping the legs going.
Most of the Race Accross America guys seem to use road bikes with tri-bars or tt bikes with high bars and adopt a high position with arms compact and tucked in. Similar high tt positions were adopted by Indurain & Armstrong to reduce power loss caused by restricted breathing a low tuck can cause some people (contrast with Chris Boardmans very low tuck).
For long distance riding comfort is a big part of it, how experienced/trained are you?
An Audax style bike would be the most comfortable, with relaxed angles and use the drops to stay more aero.
Adding TT bars to normal drops is still a reasonable option but bear in mind dropping in to the aero tuck rolls the hips forward and means your contact points with the saddle will be totally different and a once comfy saddle could turn in to an instrument of torture.
"Trust me thats what happened to me in my first 24 hour TT after 14 hours getting low in the tuck was hell on earth"
Another option as I did last year on a 12 hr TT was to raise the bars more so the aero tuck was less aggressive and more comfortable to maintain.
A full on TT bike would need a lot of training on to get comfy on in preparation for a ride of that caliber
Try the TT forum for advice http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?s=39...
An Audax style bike would be the most comfortable, with relaxed angles and use the drops to stay more aero.
Adding TT bars to normal drops is still a reasonable option but bear in mind dropping in to the aero tuck rolls the hips forward and means your contact points with the saddle will be totally different and a once comfy saddle could turn in to an instrument of torture.
"Trust me thats what happened to me in my first 24 hour TT after 14 hours getting low in the tuck was hell on earth"
Another option as I did last year on a 12 hr TT was to raise the bars more so the aero tuck was less aggressive and more comfortable to maintain.
A full on TT bike would need a lot of training on to get comfy on in preparation for a ride of that caliber
Try the TT forum for advice http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?s=39...
TT bikes are one thing, TT positions are entirely another. If you're riding on your own - no drafting - and have no luggage then a TT bike set-up for long distance/Triathlon will almost certainly be your best bet - for an over-simplified illustration think in terms of the same kind of drop between saddle and bullhorns as you would have between saddle and hoods on a road bike.
It takes a long time to optimise the position, but I use mine for lots of 50-mile-plus rides and I'm a lot fresher after 100 miles on it than I am after the same distance on my road bike.
Quid pro quo is that I'd need to drop the bars by a good 2" to go find the best position for a PB over 5 or 10 miles.
Deep-section rims are probably a good plan; but tubs and/or carbon braking surfaces are probably not...
It takes a long time to optimise the position, but I use mine for lots of 50-mile-plus rides and I'm a lot fresher after 100 miles on it than I am after the same distance on my road bike.
Quid pro quo is that I'd need to drop the bars by a good 2" to go find the best position for a PB over 5 or 10 miles.
Deep-section rims are probably a good plan; but tubs and/or carbon braking surfaces are probably not...
You could be comfy on a TT bike and uncomfy on a road bike - it is all down to how the bike is set up.
Cancellara can't spend more than 6.5 hours in his optimised for 1 hour TT position? That isn't exactly earth shattering - if he raised the bars a bit to match his road position, the 6.5 hours would be no problem. Loads of people spend 5+hours on a TT bike during an Ironman and the run a marathon off the bike - not all TT positions are created equal.
RE:Armstrong's position - he has a f
ked back, which is why he doesn't ride super aggressive. Even then, it is a calculation - he will be putting out less watts in his TT position, but it is offset by the watts saved due to aerodynamics - for joe bloggs, it isn't really relevant, as they won't have spent hours in a wind tunnel with a power meter locating the sweetspot between aero gain and power loss. If you compare Lance's normal TT position to the one he will use when he finally does an IM, they will be different - one is optomised for a 1 hour effort, the other needs 4-5 hours in the saddle and the ability to run afterwards - both will be on a TT bike, but both positions will be different.
If you get a well fitted TT bike and set it up for comfort rather than super aggressive and aero you will be laughing - this isn't to say that a TT bike is the right option - if you have bad bike handling, you will be spending a lot of time on the base bar rather than the extensions, which kind of eliminates the point of a TT rig. The main concern would be getting a properly fitted bike, whatever the type - personally, I would be doing it on a TT bike set up for comfort - a well set up road bike would probably be comfier due to more hand positions, but it would almost certainly be slower.
Cancellara can't spend more than 6.5 hours in his optimised for 1 hour TT position? That isn't exactly earth shattering - if he raised the bars a bit to match his road position, the 6.5 hours would be no problem. Loads of people spend 5+hours on a TT bike during an Ironman and the run a marathon off the bike - not all TT positions are created equal.
RE:Armstrong's position - he has a f
ked back, which is why he doesn't ride super aggressive. Even then, it is a calculation - he will be putting out less watts in his TT position, but it is offset by the watts saved due to aerodynamics - for joe bloggs, it isn't really relevant, as they won't have spent hours in a wind tunnel with a power meter locating the sweetspot between aero gain and power loss. If you compare Lance's normal TT position to the one he will use when he finally does an IM, they will be different - one is optomised for a 1 hour effort, the other needs 4-5 hours in the saddle and the ability to run afterwards - both will be on a TT bike, but both positions will be different.If you get a well fitted TT bike and set it up for comfort rather than super aggressive and aero you will be laughing - this isn't to say that a TT bike is the right option - if you have bad bike handling, you will be spending a lot of time on the base bar rather than the extensions, which kind of eliminates the point of a TT rig. The main concern would be getting a properly fitted bike, whatever the type - personally, I would be doing it on a TT bike set up for comfort - a well set up road bike would probably be comfier due to more hand positions, but it would almost certainly be slower.
I think the OP mentioned he was taking two bikes. If this is the case, my suggestion, (with little experience to be fair,) would be:
- A TT bike, with a bias towards comfort as described above. Spend time and money getting fitted by professionals. Be aware that as you train and your musculature changes, so might the optimum position.
- Two sets of wheels for the TT bike, one for cross winds and one for head winds, with ratios to suit. Consider a third rear with ratios for tail winds.
- A road bike, for the hilly days. This should also be comfortable so if you're in pain from the TT bike one day, you can still make good progress whilst letting your body recover a bit.
It does sound like it does need to be some kind of compromise.
If you were building a bike for this kind of thing, and aiming for somewhere in the middle of TT/road bike, would you start with a TT frame and set it up more relaxed, or start with a road bike and set it up more aggressive?
(I would ask in more specialist forums, but they slightly terrify me and generally seem to descend into arguments between two people about nothing - have you seen what happens when you ask a car-related question on here?!)
If you were building a bike for this kind of thing, and aiming for somewhere in the middle of TT/road bike, would you start with a TT frame and set it up more relaxed, or start with a road bike and set it up more aggressive?
(I would ask in more specialist forums, but they slightly terrify me and generally seem to descend into arguments between two people about nothing - have you seen what happens when you ask a car-related question on here?!)
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