difference between group sets

[E21_Ross]

Hi guys, just wanted to clear something up really. what is the main difference between various group sets in terms of performance? for example, you have things like shimano 105's, campagnolo veloce etc which are more at the bottom end of things, and getting better you have the likes of the ultegra set, or even campagnolo super record.

is the primary reason one group set is better than another down to weight? i'm also guessing efficiency too. but over say a 60-70mile ride, how much difference are you likely to notice over a bike with the 105 set, and a bike with the ultegra set?

thanks

[cramman]

I have sram apex on my bike, and a friend had sram red. The red stuff is lighter, but I drink too much beer for that to matter.

We recently swapped bikes and you can tell his group is better, faster shifting etc, but £1000 better, I'm not sure.

I'm not convinced. His wheels on the other hand, felt much better than mine.

[shalmaneser]

It's fairly self explanitory.

The more money you pay, the faster you go.







Maybe.

Basically, more expensive stuff weighs less - pay more, get less. The top end Shimano stuff (I presume you're mainly interested in road groupsets here) are all ten speed - that's 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace. The advantage of that is that it means it's easier for you to stay at your optimal cadence.

But what's the difference between the top groupsets, i hear you ask?

Basically it's feel and to an extent durability. The shift from an Ultegra shifter is noticably smoother than that from a 105 lever. Never used Dura Ace stuff I assume that's better still. This comes down to better quality materials, and lower tolerances, and does make a difference.

To be honest though, the rule of thumb you want to be using is this:

Dedicated leisure rider: 105. Best overall value groupset. Maybe an Ultegra rear mech if you're feeling rich.

Semi competitive: 105 for the cassette and chain (as they wear out and need to be replaced fairly regularly), Ultegra for the rest. It's nearly as good as Dura-Ace, but a lot cheaper.

Too much money/sponsored rider who doesn't pay for their kit: Dura Ace (Because it's the best)


As for the other guys, SRAM and Campag, it's basically the same as Shimano: Top groupset for athletes and poseurs, the two below that are what the proles use and by-and-large it's the best value.

Major differences: Apex, Rival, Force and Red are all 10 speed, and SRAM generally has the lightest groupsets at any price point. Doubletap shifting, some love it, others hate it.

Super Record, Record, Chorus and Athena are all 11 speed, which makes them all one better that the ten speed groupset. They are, however hideously overpriced, and I think the Campag shift is clunky and horrible, but some people (who spend too much time sitting in expensive cafes drinking expressos in their lycra) think it's great. However, if you have an italian bike you have to have Campag, otherwise you'll get laughed at.

Re. Super Record, even pro athletes don't get given this, the only people who have bikes with Super Record have impenetrably confusing jobs based in the city, and are nearly always slow, so if you discount SR then Chorus is the Ultegra level stuff and Athena is the 105 level workhorse.

[summit7]

Don't buy a group set, key into individual items and buy the best performing product.

If it goes round with bearings traditionally Super Record does this best (hubs, bottom brackets, chainsets), if it moves side to side Dura Ace is the kit (gears, brakes).

No single group set will give the best overall bike with a blank cheque approach.

[RRS_Staffs]

My new bike arrived today
It has Dura-ace throughout and on the strength of a 2 mile ride to my pals its completely lovely

Having said that my old bike ran Ultegra
After 4 years its still fine and nothing bar brake pads have worn out

The more money you pay the less weight you get (fringe benefit), the nicer it is to use (fringe benefit), and the longer it lasts (in my experience)

Its all good
105 is all you need
Arguably Tiagra if it wasnt for the compatability issues

But 105 is fine
Ultegra is for the thinking man with more money than sense

But but but Dura-aces.....
"If I hadnt seen such riches, I could live with being poor"



Cheers

[E21_Ross]

thanks guys much appreciated, some good info there

[louiebaby]

swerni said:

I changed the cassette for a SRAM Apex 11-32 which means I can now almost cycle up walls.

This is what I'll do if I ever get a chance to get out to the Alps. I think the 105's I have are already a Long Cage, but I'll have to check more than a day before I go...

I've just gone from 53/42 to 50/34 on the front, so hills should be a little easier anyway...

[Roman]

shalmaneser said:

They are, however hideously overpriced, and I think the Campag shift is clunky and horrible, but some people (who spend too much time sitting in expensive cafes drinking expressos in their lycra) think it's great. However, if you have an italian bike you have to have Campag, otherwise you'll get laughed at.

Re. Super Record, even pro athletes don't get given this, the only people who have bikes with Super Record have impenetrably confusing jobs based in the city, and are nearly always slow, so if you discount SR then Chorus is the Ultegra level stuff and Athena is the 105 level workhorse.

With you until this bit.

Athena is very reasonably priced - usually slightly cheaper than Ultegra & Record is usually about the same cost as Dura Ace. Look at prices from Ribble, Merlin, CRC etc. Campag are just as good as Shimano value wise.

Campag does have a slightly heavier shifting action than Shimano, it's really down to personal preference which you prefer but if the extra 1nm required by Campag is such a chore you're probably in the wrong sport!

My Campag shifters don't rattle like my Shimano ones and if they did I could buy spares for them unlike Shimano.

Agree with what you say about SR and I'd say the same about Di2

Veloce is the 105 level workhorse & what most people spec on their winter/training bikes, 2011 Centaur is down specced slightly over 2010 and now costs little more than Veloce.

Objectively, all three have their merits though I've not tried Microshift yet.

Really can't be bothered with poncey cafes or brand cliques (I ride all three) - I'd rather just ride!

[E21_Ross]

thanks guys. as per my other thread, i am going to get the bianchi. yes, it may be more expensive, but i love the looks of it, and having ridden a mates 2009 one, the frame is superb. when bits need replacing i'll change them over the years with bits from other group sets but for now the 105 should be suffice. i've had bikes with 105 sets on them before and didn't encounter any issues at all so i don't currently see the need to spend £xxx extra just yet.

thanks again guys, really informative as per usual

[okgo]

Pro athletes dont get super record?

What are you on? Pro riders have the very best kit money can buy. If they're not on di2, then they will be on electric campagnolo groups which is going to be the same level as super record.

I wouldn't worry about the groupset, get 105 and make savings elsewhere!

[rhinochopig]

Best thing you can do to cheap groupsets is fit the best cables you can - you will see the biggest improvement in shift quality IME. IME LX with XTR cables works better than XT with XT cables. I have LX, XT, and XTR on my bikes, all are now fitted with XTR cables and difference is night and day.

[shalmaneser]

okgo said:

Pro athletes dont get super record?

What are you on? Pro riders have the very best kit money can buy. If they're not on di2, then they will be on electric campagnolo groups which is going to be the same level as super record.

I wouldn't worry about the groupset, get 105 and make savings elsewhere!

Lol it was a bit tongue in cheek!

[Ash-man]

hi,think when you move away from the base models,or entry models such as sora and tiagra ,the advantages between ultegra and dura ace is minimall.i have a winter bike running 2008 dura ace and this years bike with the new ultegra which weighs roughly the same.shift is always down to how well set up they are.i am always alot keener to get the best wheel set available at my budget price and always seek advice from my race mates on tyre choice.now a good rolling and climbing wheel set is a real advantage when out on bike.not so convinced by the benefits of the most expensive group set.went for a ride out with mates and one was on a very nice pinnerllo with dura ace d12 for some reason when climbing and down changing kept dropping the chain.prob not set up correct but annoying all the same.Especially on a 8000 pound bike.

[shalmaneser]

rhinochopig said:

Best thing you can do to cheap groupsets is fit the best cables you can - you will see the biggest improvement in shift quality IME. IME LX with XTR cables works better than XT with XT cables. I have LX, XT, and XTR on my bikes, all are now fitted with XTR cables and difference is night and day.

I'd disagree, I've seen nothing to convince me that XTR cables are worth the cash. I replace my cables fairly often and ensure that they're well lubed but the biggest change I've felt is between knackered old cables and new freshly set up ones.

Would definitely recommend getting new cables fairly frequently though to let any groupset work its best.

[hughjayteens]

I have had numerous MTB and roadie groupsets over the years and maybe there is some placebo effect, but I now excluslively run XTR drivetrain on my MTBs and had Dura Ace on my last road bike. It always just 'feels' nicer, from the lever finish, to the action and it certainly lasts well.

If you buy lightly used or wisely online it needn't cost the earth and the only thing I fancy changing mine too is the 2011 XTR 10speed groupset!

[E21_Ross]

shalmaneser said:

I'd disagree, I've seen nothing to convince me that XTR cables are worth the cash. I replace my cables fairly often and ensure that they're well lubed but the biggest change I've felt is between knackered old cables and new freshly set up ones.

Would definitely recommend getting new cables fairly frequently though to let any groupset work its best.

i sometimes lube where the cables meet into the derailleurs/mechs etc, but not along the length of the cable, don't see the point...? i use bilt hamber ferrosol and, in theory, it should do the job perfectly. ironically, went around the mountain bike earlier and did this, just about every single cable, screw, nut etc got some ferrosol, put some around the bottom bracket too (not sure if that was a wise idea...can't see why not though?)

ferrosol is basically WD40 but better in every way, especially lubrication and rust prevention.

thanks again guys, really appreciate all the opinions on this thread keep 'em coming

[Garlick]

Know what? I think too many folk worry about what others think they should have.

There are plenty of folk on here who know the subtle difference between one over another, but for most of us who cover (say) 100 miles of leisure riding a week, we'll be fine with whatever is on our bikes.

My bike has 105 and the poor thing is still better than the rider. I'm a long way off from needing to upgrade and I doubt spending £££ at this stage will make me the king of Richmond Park.

I'm not saying don't, I'm just saying concentrate on your riding and when you start to notice the imperfections, become better than your bike or start riding competitively upgrade. Of course, if you're rich, just go for it!

Not trying to be contraversial, just saying do what's right for you

[E21_Ross]

Garlick said:

Know what? I think too many folk worry about what others think they should have.

There are plenty of folk on here who know the subtle difference between one over another, but for most of us who cover (say) 100 miles of leisure riding a week, we'll be fine with whatever is on our bikes.

My bike has 105 and the poor thing is still better than the rider. I'm a long way off from needing to upgrade and I doubt spending £££ at this stage will make me the king of Richmond Park.

I'm not saying don't, I'm just saying concentrate on your riding and when you start to notice the imperfections, become better than your bike or start riding competitively upgrade. Of course, if you're rich, just go for it!

Not trying to be contraversial, just saying do what's right for you

i think that's exactly it garlick. cycling is my 2nd sport, after running. i'm a half decent cyclist after a 3/4 () decent runner. i'm really beginning to enjoy cycling again though and suspect once uni is finished with at the end of next year it'll become my main sport. until then, i'm sure a 105 group set will do me just fine.

thanks fella!

[okgo]

Also for every guy on a flash bike there will be one on a cheaper one flying past them up the hills and indeed on the flats.

No one component is going to make someone with crap legs fast.

[shalmaneser]

E21_Ross said:

i sometimes lube where the cables meet into the derailleurs/mechs etc, but not along the length of the cable, don't see the point...? i use bilt hamber ferrosol and, in theory, it should do the job perfectly. ironically, went around the mountain bike earlier and did this, just about every single cable, screw, nut etc got some ferrosol, put some around the bottom bracket too (not sure if that was a wise idea...can't see why not though?)

ferrosol is basically WD40 but better in every way, especially lubrication and rust prevention.

thanks again guys, really appreciate all the opinions on this thread keep 'em coming

The main cause of poor shifting (assuming the gears are well set up) is contamination between the inner and outer cables. Water and muck does get in here and gets all ground up causing a lot of friction, causing the return spring on the mech not to work as well, and meaning you need to put more force into pulling the cable. Definitely worth changing every 6 months or so.