traction control revisited

[Turbobird1]

actually this thread was about traction control its use off and looking for an effective way we can police it before something we dont like is enforced upon us,
This is not a thread about John bradshaw or anyone else,
or any other subject,
running consistent sixes has no relevance to this thread, it takes 1400/1500 hp and a decent set up to do that. we did that 10 years ago with nothing special at all and a 2650lb door car at shakey it realy wasnt hard or even cost a lot of money,
Running consistant 6.0s @ 250 on bad tracks might have some, but as that isnt happening at the moment its not the issue
this is not about who is but more about who has it and not relying on trust that someone (read anyone) wont use it in the future,

Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 10:07

[37chevy]

Turbobird1 said:

actually this thread was about traction control its use off and looking for an effective way we can police it before something we dont like is enforced upon us,
This is not a thread about John bradshaw or anyone else,
or any other subject,
running consistent sixes has no relevance to this thread, it takes 1400/1500 hp and a decent set up to do that. we did that 10 years ago with nothing special at all and a 2650lb door car at shakey it realy wasnt hard or even cost a lot of money,
Running consistant 6.0s @ 250 on bad tracks might have some, but as that isnt happening at the moment its not the issue
this is not about who is but more about who has it and not relying on trust that someone (read anyone) wont use it in the future,

Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 10:07

I realise that graham, I was responding to johns comments about Fred

But yeh back on topic. Traction control is an incredibly difficult one to police....I don't like it, but maybe someone had a point when they said legalise it...it's the only true way to police it, either that or make everyone use the same sealed ecu unit??

[trackday addict]

Appreciate that Graham but if people want to crap the thread with crap then either remove it or sorry I'm going to put them straight.

If there is no rules set then anyone is free to look at our data logging info from any run in the future after they have put £250 on the roof of the car first - nothing like putting their money where their mouth is

[Burndown]

I think the ignition retard box that the fuel cars have to use in NHRA can detectt if traction control is being used and it shuts itself down and can't be used for 24 hours.

Maybe there is a way around this but that would be the sort of thing that could be done, manufacturers would need to be involved, tamper seals etc.

Then a Tech Inspector checks the box, not a racepak trace which would be down to interpretation.

Edited by Burndown on Sunday 7th October 13:03

Edited by Burndown on Sunday 7th October 13:04

[Turbobird1]

trackday addict said:

Appreciate that Graham but if people want to crap the thread with crap then either remove it or sorry I'm going to put them straight.

If there is no rules set then anyone is free to look at our data logging info from any run in the future after they have put £250 on the roof of the car first - nothing like putting their money where their mouth is

I was suggesting that we should look at making it easier for them to police us befour someone says f.this for a game of soldiers you will all use fred blogs efi system and like it,
wait till RB dissapears from nhra pro mod totaly all of his influence will be gone see how long we get away with what we do then,
it was only RB that made sure they still had 88 mm turbos the nhra wanted smaller,
we live in dangerous times

Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 18:54

[Turbobird1]

Burndown said:

I think the ignition retard box that the fuel cars have to use in NHRA can detectt if traction control is being used and it shuts itself down and can't be used for 24 hours.

Maybe there is a way around this but that would be the sort of thing that could be done, manufacturers would need to be involved, tamper seals etc.

Then a Tech Inspector checks the box, not a racepak trace which would be down to interpretation.

Edited by Burndown on Sunday 7th October 13:03

Edited by Burndown on Sunday 7th October 13:04

we dont use any ignition retard box with EFI,
the only way to guarentee no one was using it would be a control ECU
which is why im asking is there any way we can police ourselves or help the tech guys to police us,

[Turn7]

Apart from a spec ecu then, the only other way is a standardised form of logging - maybe a spec logger box that only records two or three varibales that would show TC in use ? Im not tech enough to know all the systems you guys use here.

[redvictor]

Turn7 said:

Apart from a spec ecu then, the only other way is a standardised form of logging - maybe a spec logger box that only records two or three varibales that would show TC in use ? Im not tech enough to know all the systems you guys use here.

So who are you going to make spend 1000's of pounds on the ECU that isn't the spec one?
If there is that much suspicion then the tech guys need to get up to speed with the ECU's out there. Remember there's a traction control system used in ADRL that's available too.
The way it's being discussed here it's like someone IS cheating already.
Is there any evidence of that?

[tonysoprano]

I really dont know what all the fuss is about. A car with traction enabled and working stands out like a sore thumb misfiring for 50% of the run!
Besides I thought drag racing was all about the quickest run. Let it move on to modern times and leave the nostalgia behind.

Tony

[Turn7]

redvictor said:

Turn7 said:

Apart from a spec ecu then, the only other way is a standardised form of logging - maybe a spec logger box that only records two or three varibales that would show TC in use ? Im not tech enough to know all the systems you guys use here.

So who are you going to make spend 1000's of pounds on the ECU that isn't the spec one?
If there is that much suspicion then the tech guys need to get up to speed with the ECU's out there. Remember there's a traction control system used in ADRL that's available too.
The way it's being discussed here it's like someone IS cheating already.
Is there any evidence of that?

Andy, I was thinking more a standalone box that purely recorded,leaving ECU to choice. You and Graham know more about Promod than most others here, and if you cant think of a way , then its clearly going to be very difficult to police.

Can I ask why its deemed as undesireable ? as Mr Soprano says - it is about getting down the track ?

How is TC deemed to be differnt than say, a Leanders clutch or a billet blower ?
Im not trying to be stupid here, Im genuinely interested,

[redvictor]

Turn7 said:

Andy, I was thinking more a standalone box that purely recorded,leaving ECU to choice. You and Graham know more about Promod than most others here, and if you cant think of a way , then its clearly going to be very difficult to police.

Can I ask why its deemed as undesireable ? as Mr Soprano says - it is about getting down the track ?

How is TC deemed to be differnt than say, a Leanders clutch or a billet blower ?
Im not trying to be stupid here, Im genuinely interested,

The ECU i use, and the one that Graham uses has a recorder in them. Everything can be looked at within the boxes we own already.It's up to the tech people to get their heads around them if they deem that checks should be made. I have no problem with a tech guy looking at our data/ecu to confirm we are not using TC.

My opinion is that getting down the track should be the reserve of the team/driver. Traction control takes all the control of the clutch/converter/ign tune up out of the hands of the team/driver. That is a step too far IMO.
If you cannot get down a slippery track then you should have to use your smarts,not a electronic device that requires no human input..

[Turbobird1]

redvictor said:

So who are you going to make spend 1000's of pounds on the ECU that isn't the spec one?
If there is that much suspicion then the tech guys need to get up to speed with the ECU's out there. Remember there's a traction control system used in ADRL that's available too.
The way it's being discussed here it's like someone IS cheating already.
Is there any evidence of that?

Andy i have never said anyone IS cheating im saying we are all capable of cheating if we wanted, and there should be some threat of being caught otherwise its a free for all,
its a bit like engine size, valve size, no one ever checks but we all know they can any time so we stick to the rules imagine getting caught running 600 ci in legal pro mod youd never be able to show your face,
well it should be the same threat for TC, at the moment there is no threat of being caught so someone unscrupulous could say what the hell lets use it no one will ever know and at the moment thats true....

i make you right Andy the tech guys need to be conversant with the different ecu's
and we could help that by being transparent and inviting them to look over our relevent data so they could get a feel for what to look for,


A missfire wouldnt be at all evident in an turbo EFI car

Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 20:03

[trackday addict]

So - a single type class approved ECU is not attractive as that could mean big bills for some having to change (not to mention them and their crew having to relearn software traits etc)

is it realistic to expect a tech guy to know 100% what they are looking at & looking for with various different ecu's ? - i dont know is the answer, is there someone who who step up & take ownership between now & the start of next year ?

If there is great & i'm sure we would all be happy for them to visit or call us all respectively to take as many notes & to get up to speed. The perfect time to review data would be straight after a run on weigh in (but would this slow things down to much & endanger turn around times for the next round ?) or in the pits straight after a run.

If this happens they MUST be 1000% upto speed so they do not have the wool pulled over their eyes or worse still mistakenly accuse anyone (mud sticks) due to them not understanding or misinterpreting anything.

Is every run the answer or should it be limited to suspicious runs only ie. whole field struggling & one car blows all into the weeds ? (then you run hacking off a team who may well have guessed it right ...)

Any tc control could be used on non turbo cars as well right ? - so it needs to be consistent throughout.

[tonysoprano]

"Couldt detect a misfire"
Well a blind deaf man couldnt!
It would show up blatently on an individual egt trace anyway.

Tony

[redvictor]

tonysoprano said:

"Couldt detect a misfire"
Well a blind deaf man couldnt!
It would show up blatently on an individual egt trace anyway.

Tony

You don't understand how EFI works on a turbo engine then..

[redvictor]

Turbobird1 said:

Andy i have never said anyone IS cheating im saying we are all capable of cheating if we wanted, and there should be some threat of being caught otherwise its a free for all,
its a bit like engine size, valve size, no one ever checks but we all know they can any time so we stick to the rules imagine getting caught running 600 ci in legal pro mod youd never be able to show your face,
well it should be the same threat for TC, at the moment there is no threat of being caught so someone unscrupulous could say what the hell lets use it no one will ever know and at the moment thats true....

i make you right Andy the tech guys need to be conversant with the different ecu's
and we could help that by being transparent and inviting them to look over our relevent data so they could get a feel for what to look for,


A missfire wouldnt be at all evident in an turbo EFI car

Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 20:03

Well, on a Motec it's clear wether TC is enabled or not. You just need to look at were it is in the software. I can show any tech guy that if he wants to pop into our pit.

[Turbobird1]

all this talk about misfires
firstly a induced misfire will only occur when a rev limit is hit,
on a blower car with individual pipes you can see it as unburnt fuel exiting the headers
in a turbo car you wont see anything, and that's if there's a misfire
traction control just reduces power when cirtain criteria are met usually by retarding the ignition timing momentarily that you wont see or hear,
misfiring 50% of the run was mentioned earlier
actually at best you'd use it to control wheel speed in the first 300 ft by reducing power, no misfire no header signature no nothing,

[trackday addict]

Pmsl - What !!

redvictor said:

You don't understand how EFI works on a turbo engine then..

[redvictor]

trackday addict said:

Did you look who i quoted John?

[trackday addict]

Yes - someone who has specialised in turbos and efi before I was out of short trousers ....