traction control revisited

[redvictor]

Turbobird1 said:

traction control just reduces power when cirtain criteria are met usually by retarding the ignition timing momentarily that you wont see or hear,

Which is how it's done, but manually,not automatically.
Sometimes you get it right,sometimes not,which is the name of the game.

TC wrongly takes the human error away, which is what makes it the unknown that is racing.

[redvictor]

trackday addict said:

Yes - someone who has specialised in turbos and efi before I was out of short trousers ....

OK,i now looked at Tony's profile.So humble apologies to the master.. Still,misfires don't need to be part of a turbo cars traction control at all. Not sure about anything else.
And short trousers was last week no?

[trackday addict]

Lol they are in this weather

[tonysoprano]

PMSL Andy

Turbo cars since 1969 and turbo efi since 1987...feck me I am old lol

Seriously though perhaps i should turn my hand to auto boxes

Graham ,perhaps if its the first few feet you are worried about you should get hold if your keyboard warrior and your clutch man ,tell them to get off their arse and go and have a look at the track and do the necessary.........oh sorry I forgot.. its an auto now isnt it. ...a whole new set of problems perhaps and not very easily changed variables!
As regards retard...in my book that means heat which equals more boost which means more wastegate control....what do they say about vicious circles lol.
Oh dear...turbo cars in the uk about to take a significant step forward methinks...sophistication lol..watch this space.

Tony
By the way ,these are my personal views and not those of Brams Racing!

[Turbobird1]

firstly why do you assume im worried about the first few feet??? I dont care how long you have been involved with EFI or turbos you dont need to start telling us how to drag race on here
"Get your keyboard warrior and clutch man to look at the track"

my keyboard warrior won his first pro mod championship in 1999 and knows a thing or two about this track, The project Manager has spent the last 35 years of his life looking at the track and has crewed many champions in pro mod and was a pioneer of the class befour it ever existed in the states,




retard heat boost yes.... but not in the fractions of a second that the retard operates to reduce wheel speed in this scenario,

more difficult with an auto... a new learning curve id call it and you hit the nail on the head it takes a variable out of the equation, but as i have run a clutch in big power cars for a while id say removing a variable and replacing it with a constant makes sence

Edited by Turbobird1 on Monday 8th October 09:14

[dorrisdormouse]

Im not sure this is possible - but if there are enough people within the class who want this maybe you could push for an impartial third party, agreed on by a high % of the teams, to be trained up and freely allowed access to the data stored on your ECU's. If such data logging is not present as is acceptable within the rules then maybe a spec data logger should be required so that the data can be checked by the third party.

[tonysoprano]

Ok Graham

You are the expert and we are novices.

I look forward to competing against you.

Tony

[Turbobird1]

ok if you want to be a baby about it go ahead,

cant take critisism, can make pointed comments but cant take them......
yeah i look forward too

[tonysoprano]

Now now Graham

I am an old git I take criticism every day so it dont bother me. I am not a baby either I dont mind standing up and being counted I just see the problem a different way to you.
Thats life I am afraid if you are right and I am wrong time will tell. I hope you are sucessful next year and if you can get amongst the FIA crowd I will be the first to congratulate you.

Tony

[Turbobird1]

ok well i also am not a shrinking violet..... i have run the car for a year identified problems and taken steps to address those,

with all due respect and i realy do have... what you have acheived with johns cars is outstanding and what you do with jap engines generaly is outstanding BUT those engines have nothing in common with a big pro mod engine when it comes to torque and managing that torque, we can agree to dissagree but your throw away comment that i concider myself an expert and that i concider you novices was frankly not what i expected from a man of your intelegence

so can we put this to bed and stop bickering and get back to the subject of traction controll and how/if it can be policed... bearing in mind that i dont beleive the powers that be will ever make it legal

[tonysoprano]

Yeah sure

I wont be easy to police.....praps not too bad if on motec as its pretty well known. I think the hard bit will be to find an impartial expert. After all we wouldnt want you having a look at our data and vice versa lol

Are none of the existing tech guys good enough to snoop around?

[NitroWars]

Gentlemen, may I refer you to http://www.eurodragster.com/news/news.asp?Story=oc... this may be the starting place for such a discussion.

[Turn7]

I may be being a tad simplistic here,but, if its currently outlawed,surely if you protest that run,then logs will have to be shown?

[slinky]

That's the problem.. How do you know that the log you're looking at (as a tech inspector) is the data you're expecting to see? How do you standardise this across multiple ECUs and software packages? How do you guarantee that data isn't being masked?

[Tet]

With a sealed spec ECU. But that's not an ideal solution, for many reasons.

[slinky]

Tet said:

With a sealed spec ECU. But that's not an ideal solution, for many reasons.

Which was my suggestion (with associated caveats) in my first post on the thread..

Due to the variety of technologies and techniques available for managing engines (and their power output) in Pro Mod, I just don't think that there is a catch all technology solution.

Of course, the tech team and scrutineers could receive training, but it would have to be so extensive and wide reaching that it would be prohibitive in cost terms.

Has anyone ever had a car checked to see whether the throttle pedal actually has a physical linkage to the throttle body / injector hat / carbs? I ask as DBW is prohibited, but I don't recall it being checked for, that's an alternative route by which to manage traction (think closed loop throttle stop with fast actuation).. And I ask/mention that, as, if we agree on a route to disclose ignition logs to the tech crew, a(n unscrupulous) tuner wishing to use an alternative, non-ignition, based route for power management (and therefore traction control) will always work on different routes to achieve their desired results..

[prostang]

Is this not the reason F1 went on to spec ecu because its impossible to police, on the flip side is it not better as a show for the cars to get down the track rather than smoking the tires

[MartynJones]

If the FIA, with all their resources, couldn't prove that traction control was active in F1, and had to adopt a spec ECU, can't see how our tech inpectors/scrutineers can be expected to do it.

However, can't see a spec ECU being viable for ProMod, with the variety of systems in use. And there have been accusations in TAD where everyone uses the same ignition (more or less) ....

Also, I'm not sure that the arguments about who is responsible for eligibility scrutineering were ever resolved. And no, they weren't all trying to take responsibility ... Been told many times that the only way is to protest ...

[MotorPsycho]

Was still accusations towards RedBull of a sneak traction control even using a spec ECU but they couldn't proove anything on the trace. So I can't see much chance of it being policed in drag racing.

Personally I'm 100% against traction control.

[Turbobird1]

i seriously dont believe the only way is to protest,
the rules say its illegal so it should be checked for,
otherwise there is NOTHING to stop any or all of us cheating,
A spec ecu is viable All thats needed in an ecu is basic engine mapping which is fuel, and ignition,, throttle position, ect ect with no drive shaft sensors, no reactive changes during a run possible, a built in two step and a way to map the ignition timing from the start line on a time base
obviously that will cost us all money we dont want to spend
they already have spec turbos in nhra everyone who goes very fast uses the same ecu so its more than lightly when a spec ecu is mandated it will be a variant or the one in use,

its not a case of if rather when we get those same rules and the when will be the day a turbo car goes quicker than a blower car has, and trust me it will only take 1 run from 1 team to seal our fate

Edited by Turbobird1 on Tuesday 9th October 12:04