Another Giles wins Super pro.

[RB446]

Tet said:

I'd claim the same applies the other way around. Drag racing can't be sustained on heads up racing, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Both have their place, and I'd say both are necessary for the health of the sport. One is great for spectators, one is great for racers. You need to appease both camps.

Yes and that is a fair point, but the ratio is all wrong, too much of 1 and not enough of the other to the point where there's nothing much to watch, well for me at least, apart from the bikes which I'm not a massive fan of but can appreciate what they are doing, and the Pro-classes of which there's not many cars. You do need brackets and index racing I agree for the sportsman classes as thats where I learnt a lot from a long time ago and its affordable which is important, we used to have a "Production" class in the early 80's, that could be revived and run similar to US stock rules, most of the cars in SG can run much quicker than 9.90 and are on stops etc., thats the killer, thats what you gotta stop even if you keep all the classes that we have now, ban throttle stops completely and not let cars into a class if they have recorded a run faster than the index/dial-in class they wish to enter, that would stop the backing off brigade, we do not want to see cars running 9.90 at 150mph or 9.90 at 118mph....and if you purposely run slower than you really can to avoid that, well, you shouldn't be racing in my view, how can you say your racing when your backing off, I just cannot see it.

Also you need to tighten up on the allowable ET spread in Pro-ET, 11.99>9.00, and others of which I am not so familiar with, do we really want to see 1 car leave 3 secs before the other in Pro-ET?, no, I don't think so, and I believe Comp is even worse?...all these tweaks would certainly help in my view, it would'nt erradicate the problem but would certainly go some way at least....just needs some more thought put into it and it could be a lot better.

Edited by RB446 on Sunday 27th September 22:43

Edited by RB446 on Sunday 27th September 22:43

Edited by RB446 on Sunday 27th September 22:49

Edited by RB446 on Sunday 27th September 23:27

Edited by RB446 on Sunday 27th September 23:29

[ribaric]

Referring to a point made earlier, I'm sure that no bracket racers really say "there'd be no racing with the ET classes" nor would any claim "Drag racing can't be sustained on bracket racing no matter how much you wish otherwise". These are straw-man arguments in that nobody is making those claims. I think Tet has it spot on with his "One is great for spectators, one is great for racers. You need to appease both camps".

I too am not a lover of throttle stops but the index classes are quite well populated, they clearly enjoy the technology of dialing in to a fixed index so, for me, the numbers tell the story. The ET classes now outnumber all the others by some margin, just as they do in the US, so it would appear sportsman racing has found it's place. I remember all those comp-altered classes, then the "personal index" system, all that happened was people went slower when they could in order to protect their index, just like comp altered does today. We've seen plenty of attempts at heads up racing, Super-Mod, Rover V8, Street Eliminator, Stock and probably many others but they all suffer the same problem. Who will police everything and what happens when a well funded team wipes the floor with everyone else? Perhaps 'more fun/less competition' is then answer, the blown altereds, Outlaw Anglia, gassers and suchlike seem to enjoy themselves without putting too much emphasis on winning. I put a lot of effort and money into a cannonball style competition over here in central Europe (2006-2008) in an attempt to get all the best cars to race together, it ultimately failed because too many declined to enter the show unless they stood a chance of winning. I find that a bit sad but that's the way people are.

[Rat_Fink_67]

Tet said:

I'd claim the same applies the other way around. Drag racing can't be sustained on heads up racing, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Both have their place, and I'd say both are necessary for the health of the sport. One is great for spectators, one is great for racers. You need to appease both camps.

The same does apply the other way round, but then again I never suggested it didn't. My initial point was not to be too hasty before declaring Super Pro ET as the zenith of drag racing. Also, to suggest that all it takes is money to succeed in a heads up class is ridiculous, and takes away from a lot of hard work and skill from the whole team to get it right.

I agree to a point about your Comp Eliminator concerns, but I'd counter the budget argument with Andy Hone. He can run his car 6-7 tenths under the index without melting it to the ground and has a budget as modest as any bracket racer out there. He's achieved it with a lot more thought and hard work than cash.

[prostang]

Out of interest what would Andy hones index be if not running a super mod index ( that only applies in the uk)

[540cortina]

Hmm Super Pro the easy option eh, I'll remember that next season and we'll do better than ~12th after 13 years going at it. Feel free to come have a play and see just how easy it is. ;-)

I think in our ranks a lot of people do want to go quicker but also, we are all generally on a budget, how many times do you see someone go balls out, plough loadsa money into going quicker, have to re-mortgage the house and then disappear off the scene. We'd rather chip away at it as we can afford to do so....

I'm sure if we had the disposable income and free shipping on Summit orders over here then more of us would be heads up like in the States... but we don't. Every class has its place, can't see anything changing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't S/Pro been the best class as a stepping stone for moving to the pro classes too, something to think about....

But we digress, well done Daniel :-)

[Project GTO]

540cortina said:

Hmm Super Pro the easy option eh,

Could have been worse you could have been the Joke class!

[Tet]

prostang said:

Out of interest what would Andy hones index be if not running a super mod index ( that only applies in the uk)

Hard to say without knowing the weight of the car. But somewhere between 7.00s (for AN/A) and 8.52s (for DN/A). The current SM/A index is 8.00s.

[Rat_Fink_67]

prostang said:

Out of interest what would Andy hones index be if not running a super mod index ( that only applies in the uk)

Which is kind of irrelevant because we're erm...in the UK.

[Rat_Fink_67]

540cortina said:

Hmm Super Pro the easy option eh, I'll remember that next season and we'll do better than ~12th after 13 years going at it. Feel free to come have a play and see just how easy it is. ;-)

I've got no desire to come and play in all honesty, because brackets do absolutely nothing for me, each to their own though

We actually ran the Camaro in Super Pro once, at the Main Event in 2006 to test a new clutch for the next Super Mod round. Let's just say we weren't exactly made to feel welcome, and after we won the first round there was more than one team moaning about "interfering with their championship". If that's bracket racing then you can keep it

[Tet]

Rat_Fink_67 said:

Let's just say we weren't exactly made to feel welcome, and after we won the first round there was more than one team moaning about "interfering with their championship.

I've never understood that logic. You have to beat the guy in the other lane. If they're not a regular in your class, that should make your job much easier. If you can't beat them, with your experience of running in the bracket classes vs their testing runs without that experience, then you don't deserve a shot at the championship anyway. The championship isn't run between a set of regular competitors. It's run between *everyone* that enters, whether that be vehicles that normally run in another class, or those that aren't doing the full season and are just turning up for a race or two. I've always welcomed interlopers from other classes, such as the Super Street guys entering SPET at Bug Jam. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

[540cortina]

Each to their own, if we were all the same then life would be boring (coughsupercompinthestatescough) lol

Things must have changed over the last 10 years, I feel the class is very welcoming nowadays, yes we get more entries at the Main Event and Euros but more the merrier, I agree with everything Tet said, and more points available for those who are fighting for a championship, spices things up a bit!

[540cortina]

Project GTO said:

Could have been worse you could have been the Joke class!

True, I fail to see how SE is a joke, apart from the camper race

[RB446]

Tet said:

I've never understood that logic. You have to beat the guy in the other lane. If they're not a regular in your class, that should make your job much easier. If you can't beat them, with your experience of running in the bracket classes vs their testing runs without that experience, then you don't deserve a shot at the championship anyway. The championship isn't run between a set of regular competitors. It's run between *everyone* that enters, whether that be vehicles that normally run in another class, or those that aren't doing the full season and are just turning up for a race or two. I've always welcomed interlopers from other classes, such as the Super Street guys entering SPET at Bug Jam. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

Absolutely spot on, and thats how it should be.....as a sportsman racer myself back in the day, from racing in Street class, to Modified, to 10.90 racing, and to what would've been Super Gas had I not retired in 1990, a lot has changed, people that I've got to know over the past 3yrs, mostly the Mopar crowd, but some Chevy guys as well, there is only 1 guy that I can talk to about anything and everything to do with a race car, I just love to talk technical, as thats where you can learn a lot from other racers etc., especially if your chatting with the "right" person, most today seem to look down at you some, are tight lipped, hard to talk to, and only into their own cliques as though they are the only ones who know what they are doing, and when you ask them anything remotely technical they either walk off, change the subject, or they look at you with a blank expression, no matter, going out and having fun in thier own way is fine and no doubt they enjoy themselves, nothing wrong with that at all, but the truth is that most of these guys out there are underachieving by a long way, they just seem to throw stuff together, do not optimise their cars suspension and end up doing whatever the car will do and leaving it as that and never changing anything to make it better, but lets face it, there's no need to in brackets, what a waste. I always had a thirst for knowledge, and always talked to people who came up to me whilst working on my car, no matter who or what questions they asked, I looked on that as someone showing an interest in my car, this doesn't seem to be the case these days with some people, or at least the crowd I talked to. So I've decided to move up the ladder a bit, and hook up as it were with 1 of my old buddies from back in the day who should finally be out next year with his new Pro-Mod car and hopefully then I will get to talk to "real" racers who know what they are doing and talking about, and who only go 1 way, Faster!.

[rob l]

Christ Almighty Les, have you ever considered a career in politics ?

[RB446]

rob l said:

Christ Almighty Les, have you ever considered a career in politics ?

Is that a compliment or as I suspect that I'm full of BS?

Edited by RB446 on Tuesday 29th September 20:47

[rob l]

Neither Les, I just found some of your observations a little blunt.

The sport has changed a great deal in the last twenty or thirty years. I'm not aware of the specific dates but I would guess that at some time during the late '80's E.T. and Bracket racing was seen as the way forward. Racers adapted to the format and here we are today. In the '70's you watched Alan O'Connor run Top Modified and probably felt some inspiration, the next generation saw him run Super Gas and felt the same. I don't believe most of the teams "throw their stuff together" and messing around "optimising" a combination is a luxury they can't afford. If a 675hp Big Block is only making 660hp on the day then so be it. I'd argue that it makes them better racers not worse.

The issue with the performance based classes is complex. I don't subscribe to the money theory but that's just my opinion. There are a few options for people looking to go down this road, Comp being the most recent, but this style of racing hasn't been part of the sport for nearly 30 years. I guess we'll see if there's an appetite.

[37chevy]

its a difficult one.

jr comp is a good idea Rhiannon and Peter have proved this year that you can run really good times with a bike engine...ive gone down the same route with my funny car which should run low 10s with a stock motor, so a car can be built very cheaply and a new engine wont cost the earth....I certainly couldn't afford the time or money (nor do I have the knowledge) to tinker around with big engine stuff running 6 seconds....so running a smaller car where I don't need to stress over finances suits me fine.....maybe that's just me being lazy but I have to strike a good work/life/racing/economic balance so having a car which needed a lot of attention and a lot of money just would work for me.

in terms of classes Id love to run the car in comp eliminator but the rules don't allow for rear engine funny cars last time I checked...a shame coz I like what the class Is all about. inevitably that leaves me with Pro ET which Is a great class full of diversity and where you don't need to spend vast amounts of money to compete.

I suppose its all about personal preferences and circumstances...I personally prefer bracket racing to index racing....I dislike throttle stops, so seeing a car which is capable of running 8 seconds, only running 10 seconds and dawdling off the startline does nothing for me...

id like to see more heads up racing in the sportsman ranks....you get it with Outlaw Anglia and Street Eliminator and its great to see the progression of the cars over the years, and everyone can take their development at their own pace. with my old altered I ran in the wild bunch, we had heads up and I admit it got a little tiresome racing against 6/7 second cars when I was doing 12s but at least you could pare up with cars of similar speeds in that class and we had come cracking races

I suppose its all about diversity....that's what makes drag racing great, everyone has their own views about how they want to go racing. I like the progression from sportsman et to pro et and onto super pro...its that next step that makes it tough....I used to love super mod because it had a good progression onto pro mod....maybe there is too much index/bracket racing and we need a clearer heads up route where you can start off in a sportsman et style class racing heads up, and then climb to a super mod style class and onto pro mod...

Edited by 37chevy on Wednesday 30th September 11:32

Edited by 37chevy on Wednesday 30th September 11:36

[RB446]

Blunt? perhaps Rob, but it really stems from 1 group of people I got to know as mentioned, I didn't want to attack them personally, although mentioned, as not into that so I generalised a bit, but they are only just my observations and views on performance and people based on what I it was like back then and what I had to work with then to what they have to work with today which is far in excess with ally heads/strokers/tyre tech etc. and in very similar cars to the '69 Cuda, the difference in performance from what I managed then to now is suprisingly minor (3>4 tenths for most, not all of course) which suprised me, perhaps I just put a bit more thought into it then than they do now, who knows, was good that you remembered "The Red Baron"....all the best Les

Edited by RB446 on Wednesday 30th September 13:03

37chev....maybe there is too much index/bracket racing and we need a clearer heads up route where you can start off in a sportsman et style class racing heads up, and then climb to a super mod style class and onto pro mod...

EXACTLY!

Edited by RB446 on Wednesday 30th September 13:10

[Tet]

37chevy said:

I like the progression from sportsman et to pro et and onto super pro...its that next step that makes it tough....I used to love super mod because it had a good progression onto pro mod....maybe there is too much index/bracket racing and we need a clearer heads up route where you can start off in a sportsman et style class racing heads up, and then climb to a super mod style class and onto pro mod...

What's this progression you think is missing? What's the problem you're trying to solve? As I've said repeatedly, there seems to be little evidence that people are avoiding the heads up pro classes because of the type of racing they did at lower levels. In pretty much every case that I've encountered, the reason they don't step up is money. Let's look at the UK drivers that have stepped up to Pro Mod in the years that I've been involved with the sport, and what they were doing before that:

Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET

Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.

[rob l]

Nice to see you getting active again Les, Pro Mod's a great crack. The Firebird's due in for the turbo installation next April and we should start testing towards the end of summer. We're all getting pretty juiced about 2017.

I look forward to knocking heads !

See you next year