Another Giles wins Super pro.
Discussion
Its a really hard one. I'd love to race heads up, and learn how to get the most out of my car. My budget though would not allow me to enter into one of the existing heads up classes, and I am the first acknowledge that I have a whole lot to learn. The smart guys at the track will have forgotten more than I know. I wish that were different. I'd love to have access to the tools and knowledge to do my own machine work and head flow work and to gain a better understanding of how to get the best performance out of the parts and the combination. I tried looking for part time courses in motorsport engineering / technology but I cant find any that I can do. So what I do is put together parts on my very limited budget after talking to people who know a hell of a lot more than me, and trying to scour the internet for information that I can verify and try to gain an understanding of. Then I enter into the class that my times will run, and try and predict what time i'll run if i give it all i can in the current conditions and try for that. I suck at it, but im getting out on track and enjoying the rollercoaster that is Drag Racing. I get enormous amounts of pleasure out of the good runs and the PB's, dont take break outs as the end of the world and try and push on through the harder times just like im sure the heads up racers do. Im far from competitive in my class currently - that may change as i get more experience and things might become more consistent i hope. Im sure there are lots of other racers who are like me in putting together as fast a car as they can afford, and then go out and try and learn as much as they can and have fun doing it. I bet there are lots who'd love to go heads up too. Looking at uk Drag Racing there really arent any options that i can look at and say i could afford. TMD and TMFC arent really classes in the UK, and if you enter those classes at the FIA events then your up against a real challenge with guys who arent far off the best in the world... Pro Mod is alive and hopefully doing well even with a couple of high profile losses - its out of the reach of most in terms of budget though. NFC will be an important class. Looks like the numbers of racers will be healthy and the show will be incredible. Its out of the reach of most though i'd think. I dont know what the solution is to making a heads up class that is affordable enough though.
Tet said:
What's this progression you think is missing? What's the problem you're trying to solve? As I've said repeatedly, there seems to be little evidence that people are avoiding the heads up pro classes because of the type of racing they did at lower levels. In pretty much every case that I've encountered, the reason they don't step up is money. Let's look at the UK drivers that have stepped up to Pro Mod in the years that I've been involved with the sport, and what they were doing before that:
Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET
Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
Plus dont forget yourself and Liam Jones into top fuel already from the sportsman ranks, and Jayne Kay and Pete Walters have done licensing passes in Fuel Funny and TMD too, and Gaby McDonald. Jon Webster too went through all sorts of bracket and index classes before TF, Conrad Stanley before pro stock. I guess the list goes on and on.Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET
Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
Tet said:
What's this progression you think is missing? What's the problem you're trying to solve? As I've said repeatedly, there seems to be little evidence that people are avoiding the heads up pro classes because of the type of racing they did at lower levels. In pretty much every case that I've encountered, the reason they don't step up is money. Let's look at the UK drivers that have stepped up to Pro Mod in the years that I've been involved with the sport, and what they were doing before that:
Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET
Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
That's a fair point Tethys...I suppose if there are people willing to move up it doesn't really matter whether they have raced heads up or in bracket racing...if the desire is there to keep going then they will do so. I still think it would be nice to see a heads up class ladder like there is with sportsman et/pro et/pro mod, however adding yet more classes just wouldn't work...hell im sure there are smarter and more experienced people than me that can sort out what they want!!!Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET
Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
1. Why restrict it to doorslammers? I've never understood the obsession with separating out doorslammers from dragsters, altereds and funny cars.
2. I doubt there are enough cars to make it a viable class.
3. It's likely to suffer the same fate as nearly every other heads up class[1]. Eventually someone will turn up with enough money to build a car that the rest of the field can't touch. And at that point, given it'll probably be running Pro Mod times anyway, there will be pressure to make the carbon fibre brakes[2] etc. mandatory, at which point, what rationale is there for the class to exist?
[1] SuMo was a pretty good attempt to make an affordable heads up class that avoided that trap, but for whatever reason, it never gained the popularity it needed.
[2] FWIW, having now driven cars with them, I'm 100% in favour of them. I was sceptical initially, but the difference they make is huge compared to steel brakes. I've stopped a car from 200+ without a parachute just using the brakes with plenty of room to spare. Were I building a quick car, I'd definitely be going for them even if the class regulations didn't need them.
2. I doubt there are enough cars to make it a viable class.
3. It's likely to suffer the same fate as nearly every other heads up class[1]. Eventually someone will turn up with enough money to build a car that the rest of the field can't touch. And at that point, given it'll probably be running Pro Mod times anyway, there will be pressure to make the carbon fibre brakes[2] etc. mandatory, at which point, what rationale is there for the class to exist?
[1] SuMo was a pretty good attempt to make an affordable heads up class that avoided that trap, but for whatever reason, it never gained the popularity it needed.
[2] FWIW, having now driven cars with them, I'm 100% in favour of them. I was sceptical initially, but the difference they make is huge compared to steel brakes. I've stopped a car from 200+ without a parachute just using the brakes with plenty of room to spare. Were I building a quick car, I'd definitely be going for them even if the class regulations didn't need them.
Edited by Tet on Wednesday 30th September 19:18
prostang said:
Tet the uk is best sticking to bracket racing then So Mr money bags can't come along and kill the class
No, the UK should probably stick to a mix of bracket and heads up classes like it currently has! Yes, there aren't many sportsman heads up classes. That's just the way it is. By all means have fun. There's no point doing it otherwise. But unless you can solve the moneybags problem, in a heads up class you're going to either be very wealthy or you're going to need to rely on luck to win. Look at how much it costs to be competitive in Street Eliminator these days, for example. In years gone by, when there was a scarcity of readily available performance parts, classes like Pro Comp made sense. But in today's world, anyone can pick up the phone and have a 1000bhp engine delivered within a few days, maybe get some turbos for it and hire in an experienced American tuner to ensure it gets down the track. I can't see how you can compete against that with just know-how and ingenuity. If you think I'm wrong, then by all means create a heads up class and show me. But I don't think I am.Tet said:
No, the UK should probably stick to a mix of bracket and heads up classes like it currently has! Yes, there aren't many sportsman heads up classes. That's just the way it is. By all means have fun. There's no point doing it otherwise. But unless you can solve the moneybags problem, in a heads up class you're going to either be very wealthy or you're going to need to rely on luck to win. Look at how much it costs to be competitive in Street Eliminator these days, for example. In years gone by, when there was a scarcity of readily available performance parts, classes like Pro Comp made sense. But in today's world, anyone can pick up the phone and have a 1000bhp engine delivered within a few days, maybe get some turbos for it and hire in an experienced American tuner to ensure it gets down the track. I can't see how you can compete against that with just know-how and ingenuity. If you think I'm wrong, then by all means create a heads up class and show me. But I don't think I am.
The answer to the money bags issue is simple, always has been....."CLASS RULES". Heads up racing has to have rules to equal the cars out and stop exactly what your talking about happening, cars will then ALL have a limited performance capability, and its then down to Skill/knowhow/tuning to extract the best you can from what you all have within the given parameters, thats what racing/winning is all about and Money doesn't come into it, SuMo did it, but was it not for the fact that some racers more than likely got their sums slightly wrong (hp/weight) and couldn't compete with the smaller ci N20 cars it would still be going, this is as I see it from the little I know about it and from what I heard from Rob '55 Chevy on another Forum. Instead of those racers upping there game and having a re-think on their set up they just moaned about not being competitive and killed the class. Street Eliminator is where it is because of a lack of Rules also where the anything goes (the old Gary's Picnic mentality), hence you end up with what it is today. Rules would also work for Street type Heads up classes, a watered down version perhaps of SuMo rules adapted for lesser hp/heavier cars. Rules seem to be a dirty word over here except for the Pro classes, beats me, the answer is staring you all in the face, but perhaps the biggest issue of all is that apart from the Pro boys other racers don't seem willing to accept rules, and as such, its game over and mister money bags takes it home in any form of h-up racing, but I think I've already talked about this previously........Great debate, had it before (with one member more on board) but it still is worth discussing.
As for Comp being expensive : take a Ford Cosworth, bore it up to 2200cc, leave it NA with gasoline injection,
add a 5-speed to make the most of the small powerband, and put it into a wee little dragster chassis.
This is the recipe of one of the winningest cars in german Comp, Peter Sattler even won some races in Sweden
where the field is much bigger and more racers can run way under Index.
Or the other dominating car, Rene Meierhofer´s Little Beretta, running a VERY small blocked V8 at 10.000 rpm,
some sort of a Mini Pro Stocker.
(Both cars were put to shame by Eklund´s Audi in August, and then the swede busted it by redlighting 1st round...*sigh*),
of course he is running a bigger budget but he is on a mission to have the fastest Audi, and does well there.
On the other side of the interesting diversity that is CE you have Silvio Strauch who is basically running
a TMD without the current regulation bells & whistles and is not wringing the last horse out of the block,
but still can run mid-6s at 220mph, well under Index, and with chances of winning and being finacially halfway reasonable.
You have to look at the possible weight break Combos , at the indexes, and of course your wallet,
but you don´t need to sell the house to be competitive in Comp Eliminator.
As for Comp being expensive : take a Ford Cosworth, bore it up to 2200cc, leave it NA with gasoline injection,
add a 5-speed to make the most of the small powerband, and put it into a wee little dragster chassis.
This is the recipe of one of the winningest cars in german Comp, Peter Sattler even won some races in Sweden
where the field is much bigger and more racers can run way under Index.
Or the other dominating car, Rene Meierhofer´s Little Beretta, running a VERY small blocked V8 at 10.000 rpm,
some sort of a Mini Pro Stocker.
(Both cars were put to shame by Eklund´s Audi in August, and then the swede busted it by redlighting 1st round...*sigh*),
of course he is running a bigger budget but he is on a mission to have the fastest Audi, and does well there.
On the other side of the interesting diversity that is CE you have Silvio Strauch who is basically running
a TMD without the current regulation bells & whistles and is not wringing the last horse out of the block,
but still can run mid-6s at 220mph, well under Index, and with chances of winning and being finacially halfway reasonable.
You have to look at the possible weight break Combos , at the indexes, and of course your wallet,
but you don´t need to sell the house to be competitive in Comp Eliminator.
Benni, a voice in the wilderness !
If you have a reasonable understanding of how these cars work there are some pretty soft indexes in Comp and you're correct, you don't have to sell the house.
The decline of Sumo had nothing to do with moaning Les, everyone got on pretty well. The initial weight breaks were structured to try and stay away from the 7.50 e.t. range. A number of the cars had mild steel chassis and we ( Nick and myself ) could see that this would cause problems. For years the teams marched down towards the mid sevens and at the AGM we'd adjust the regulations to slow them down. Next season they'd march back down there again. Eventually it got to a point where the regs were becoming so restrictive that the teams agreed it would be better to update chassis than to keep changing engine regs.
By this time two of the prime movers had switched to Pro Mod and as ever, things like chassis changes take a lot longer than anticipated. The numbers dwindled and eventually, after some dialogue with Ian Marshall it was shifted into Comp.
In any form of motor sport money will obviously bring benefits, however, with appropriate technical regulations, the advantages it brings can be dramatically reduced.
If you have a reasonable understanding of how these cars work there are some pretty soft indexes in Comp and you're correct, you don't have to sell the house.
The decline of Sumo had nothing to do with moaning Les, everyone got on pretty well. The initial weight breaks were structured to try and stay away from the 7.50 e.t. range. A number of the cars had mild steel chassis and we ( Nick and myself ) could see that this would cause problems. For years the teams marched down towards the mid sevens and at the AGM we'd adjust the regulations to slow them down. Next season they'd march back down there again. Eventually it got to a point where the regs were becoming so restrictive that the teams agreed it would be better to update chassis than to keep changing engine regs.
By this time two of the prime movers had switched to Pro Mod and as ever, things like chassis changes take a lot longer than anticipated. The numbers dwindled and eventually, after some dialogue with Ian Marshall it was shifted into Comp.
In any form of motor sport money will obviously bring benefits, however, with appropriate technical regulations, the advantages it brings can be dramatically reduced.
Cheers for putting me right Rob I just listened to the other Rob and thought well he ran in the class, he must know what went on, anyhow, as said this has turned in to an interesting discussion where we can all learn a few things I guess......hope to see you next year in the Pro-Mod pits, I've got a lot to learn.....I've been meaning to say hello to Mr. Garrett for the past 2 yrs as it is, he's the one 1 bought my '69 Cuda from all those yrs ago.....cheers.
what about an index based heads up class...set 3 classes at 11 seconds, 9 seconds and 7 seconds....you can spend all your money getting down to the index, but then when you go under you move up a class, no throttle stops, any type of vehicle allowed, both front and rear engine. I suppose a bit like 9.50 and 8.50 bike, then a jump into SSB
Edited by 37chevy on Thursday 1st October 10:55
I have always wondered why tyre footprint and compounds are not used as a performance limiting regulation. It would certainly mean you could have heads up classes that would run within certain ranges. Street eliminator did go down this route but tyre manufacturers worked towards improving their tyre technology and you ended up with what was basically a slick. It would have worked for fuel car too when they decided to go to 1000ft.
You then have heads up racing that is more reliant on tuning the car to the track and a tighter control over progression.
You then have heads up racing that is more reliant on tuning the car to the track and a tighter control over progression.
Sounds like heads up racing that is more reliant on traction control - which although it may be illegal could still rear its head.
I had a thought of doing something using your PB to form a handicap. So you'd have staggered start but first to the post wins but it relies on an amount of honesty. Running faster may win you a race, but on the next run your up against your new time. I dunno if it could work.
I had a thought of doing something using your PB to form a handicap. So you'd have staggered start but first to the post wins but it relies on an amount of honesty. Running faster may win you a race, but on the next run your up against your new time. I dunno if it could work.
37chevy said:
what about an index based heads up class...set 3 classes at 11 seconds, 9 seconds and 7 seconds....you can spend all your money getting down to the index, but then when you go under you move up a class, no throttle stops, any type of vehicle allowed, both front and rear engine. I suppose a bit like 9.50 and 8.50 bike, then a jump into SSB
We already have that in effect, 10.90 - SG - 8.90, you are just trying to put a band aid on a deep wound when it needs a proper bandage, ...its still not true Heads up racing, there are NO BREAKOUTS in that, just forget the words break out dial-in, index, they do not apply at all and nor does the fact that the cars leave together......US S/SS is bracket racing, only run to their class indexes, like Comp, the only time you get a true heads up race in that is when 2 of the same class cars with the same index run together, then its first to cut the beam.Edited by 37chevy on Thursday 1st October 10:55
I still don't think some of you guys get it you know, "any type of car allowed", No, you cannot have any type of car, (thats what we have now and is why there's so much bracket racing).....any make yes, but as I keep trying to say, the cars have to follow a clear set of rules, that includes weight to engine size, power adder or N/A etc, etc, and that is worked through a formula to equal the cars out......read the SuMo rules and understand what I keep trying to explain, then all will be clear hopefully.
http://www.supermodified.org/rules
Edited by RB446 on Thursday 1st October 12:42
RB446 said:
We already have that in effect, 10.90 - SG - 8.90,
yeh I get that...and I see your point...but what Im saying is that at least with no throttle stops and any TYPE of vehicle ie dragster, funny car, altered, door car, roadster can enter....unlike in super gas and comp then you will get the variety of vehicles and they will have to push to get down to the index rather than dawdling there with an 8 second car to a 10.9 index through a throttle stop (no offence meant to any gas/comp racers!). agreed though a class structure ie you have to run to certain engine specs etc etc is a good thing so its down to the tuning of the car.....implementing it and getting everyone to switch their cars from the current configuration is a different matter!Edited by RB446 on Thursday 1st October 12:42
just out of interest what sort of rules are in outlaw Anglia...seems like a pretty successful heads up class, with a variety of different cars which have developed over time....
When you restrict the car type you restrict the number of racers who can enter into the class - which is something you really dont want in UK drag racing. Were a small island with an even smaller population of drag racers (though still remarkable when you add shipping, tax and import duty to the cost of majority of the parts we need compared to the US racers).
Edited by dorrisdormouse on Thursday 1st October 14:31
dorrisdormouse said:
When you restrict the car type you restrict the number of racers who can enter into the class - which is something you really dont want in UK drag racing. Were a small island with an even smaller population of drag racers (though still remarkable when you add shipping, tax and import duty to the cost of majority of the parts we need compared to the US racers).
And I'm sorry to say,........that is the exact view that gives us what we have today....Edited by dorrisdormouse on Thursday 1st October 14:31
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Ok, so here's a thought... Is a heads up class that often features 2 or 3 cars better for UK drag racing than a bracket class with 30 or 40 cars, with at least 2 or 3 matching the times of the heads up class? Is it better value for the spectators, and does it deliver more money into the track by virtue of 30 racers paying entry fees rather than 3?
As a guy who races in Super Pro I really appreciate all the racers and what they are doing - be it heads up or bracket. I enjoy watching both sorts of races but I'd prefer to race heads up myself if i had the correct resources (money, knowledge, tooling etc). People who know me know i strive to go faster and to learn what I have to do to do so or to be a better racer - still have a way to go but im really so proud of what myself and my team have accomplished running our first 7 second pass this year. When I really started racing I aimed to build a 10 second car, then figured 8's were forever out of my reach, then dared dream that 7's were possible and now I'd like to think that one day I'll run a 6. Doesnt mean that the bracket classes are any less fascinating or the racing any less close. I feel i have plenty of friends from each class ive raced in and ive felt welcome in each one.
As a guy who races in Super Pro I really appreciate all the racers and what they are doing - be it heads up or bracket. I enjoy watching both sorts of races but I'd prefer to race heads up myself if i had the correct resources (money, knowledge, tooling etc). People who know me know i strive to go faster and to learn what I have to do to do so or to be a better racer - still have a way to go but im really so proud of what myself and my team have accomplished running our first 7 second pass this year. When I really started racing I aimed to build a 10 second car, then figured 8's were forever out of my reach, then dared dream that 7's were possible and now I'd like to think that one day I'll run a 6. Doesnt mean that the bracket classes are any less fascinating or the racing any less close. I feel i have plenty of friends from each class ive raced in and ive felt welcome in each one.
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