Another Giles wins Super pro.
Discussion
RB446 said:
And I'm sorry to say,........that is the exact view that gives us what we have today....
____________________________________________________________________________________
thing is, why should the rule book need to be restrictive? I get the running to a rule book thing, but if you choke a class by saying you must have this and cant do that, surely that removes ingenuity?____________________________________________________________________________________
look at f1 v le mans.....f1 rules are so restrictive that its in the finite detail they find the gains. lmp cars are far broader, and at le mans this year the 4 manufacturers in lmp1 bought 4 engine configurations, 3 different hybrid systems, front, rear and 4 wheel drive...the competition was great....
37chevy said:
just out of interest what sort of rules are in outlaw Anglia...seems like a pretty successful heads up class, with a variety of different cars which have developed over time....
Outlaw Anglia has probably the least restrictive set of rules for any class I've seen. In fact, there are just 5 of them:- Body must be based on an Anglia, Pop, Fordson or Prefect
- Wheelbase must be 101" or less
- Driver must sit on one side. No funny car style centre seat
- No funny car style flip up bodies
- No change to the angle of the windscreen
Tet said:
Outlaw Anglia has probably the least restrictive set of rules for any class I've seen. In fact, there are just 5 of them:
Ahh ok- Body must be based on an Anglia, Pop, Fordson or Prefect
- Wheelbase must be 101" or less
- Driver must sit on one side. No funny car style centre seat
- No funny car style flip up bodies
- No change to the angle of the windscreen
Well I suppose it worked for him! It's a catch 22...too many rules and you don't get the car count, not enough cruces and the guy with more money wins.....
....hell its a difficult balance, if there was an easy answer there would be a class out there by now!
Purely from a personal point of view (and there are many views and ways to go drag racing...that's why I love it!) I'd love to see comp eliminator opened up to every type of vehicle....I like the way the class makes you run as fast as you can,,,,doesn't currently allow my type of car though, which is a shame because I see a lot of innovation in. The class
prostang said:
Yes agree on comp eliminator it's very restrictive on certain stuff , we wanted to run in it but it means take 40ci out of the engine which means spending at least £6k
Therein lies another problem, people over here tend to build a car first and then look for somewhere to race it, which inevitably is Pro ET or Super Pro. I lost track of how many Super Mod AGMs I sat at listening to people say they should be allowed to run because their heads have only slightly raised ports or their valves are nearly stock angle etc. I think even if there was a heads-up option, and whatever the rules were, people would try and find some way to justify why they don't quite need to meet them.Rat_Fink_67 said:
Therein lies another problem, people over here tend to build a car first and then look for somewhere to race it, which inevitably is Pro ET or Super Pro. I lost track of how many Super Mod AGMs I sat at listening to people say they should be allowed to run because their heads have only slightly raised ports or their valves are nearly stock angle etc. I think even if there was a heads-up option, and whatever the rules were, people would try and find some way to justify why they don't quite need to meet them.
What happened to innovation and doing things differently though.....thought that was part of drag racing!....what's the point in following the norm if you can build something different and go as quick or quicker? take pro mod.....why do they have to have a v8... Why not allow v6 or straights....open it up and allow for innovation like John Bradshaw tried to do. You want people to develop and push the boundaries don't have a class where you have to have a v8 within certian parameters, exhaust sizes, carbs etc etc...let people be different 37chevy said:
What happened to innovation and doing things differently though.....thought that was part of drag racing!....what's the point in following the norm if you can build something different and go as quick or quicker? take pro mod.....why do they have to have a v8... Why not allow v6 or straights....open it up and allow for innovation like John Bradshaw tried to do. You want people to develop and push the boundaries don't have a class where you have to have a v8 within certian parameters, exhaust sizes, carbs etc etc...let people be different
Because innovation and doing things differently inevitably costs money, which I thought is exactly the opposite of what people want based on this thread?! You can't have it both ways. As Benni mentioned previously, Comp Eliminator is a great playground for those who wish to explore something different. You could run anything from a rotary powered altered to a a straight 6 turbo dragster if you wanted, but Comp gets snubbed because of cost. If you want to qualify number one at the US nationals, then yeah you probably need to be on the ball a bit, the Summer Nats at Santa Pod on the other hand, probably wouldn't require a 7 figure budget. If people want to be different then there are options already. I agree that outlawing John's Nissan from Pro Mod was a bit of a head scratcher, but had it been allowed in and developed in to a 6.1 or 6.2 second runner, do you think it would represent an option that was any cheaper to build or run that a turbo Hemi?! Ekanoo's 5 second six-banger Supra is an amazing bit of kit too, but again, I'd wager that you could assemble a blown Hemi and run it at similar ETs for the same price or less. If you want costs capped then you have to have limits; can you imagine the R&D budgets in pro stock for example if any engine combo was allowed?! They'd probably have a dozen dynos running with a dozen different bespoke engine combos 24/7 until either the middle east ran out of oil for the fuel, or everyone went bankrupt. All opening the door to more engine types would do in Pro Mod is create more parity headaches.
I notice that Street Eliminator has had a bit of a hard time in this thread too, but it's probably my favourite class. Nobody will pretend it's cheap at the sharp end, but what motorsport is when it comes to running at the front? Or any sport really?! Ultimately you've got the fuel and the tyres as limiters, so you can spend as much money as you like, but if you can't get the power down then you're done. I think to assume that money is all that matters in that class does a disservice to those who are successful.
I'd say that to be competitive in Street Eliminator is more down to tuning skills and the ability to read the track and set up your chassis and suspension for the given conditions, than it is simply flexing your wallet. Yes horsepower helps, and that costs money, but if you look at the fact that a single turbo small block Ford can be competitive against a large cube, twin turbo billet monster, it tells the story.
There's a bit of everything in the class, carbs, blowers, turbos and even electric motors! And the fact it's heads up and no breakout does little to deter those at the slower end of the scale to keep chipping away.
I'd say that to be competitive in Street Eliminator is more down to tuning skills and the ability to read the track and set up your chassis and suspension for the given conditions, than it is simply flexing your wallet. Yes horsepower helps, and that costs money, but if you look at the fact that a single turbo small block Ford can be competitive against a large cube, twin turbo billet monster, it tells the story.
There's a bit of everything in the class, carbs, blowers, turbos and even electric motors! And the fact it's heads up and no breakout does little to deter those at the slower end of the scale to keep chipping away.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
Because innovation and doing things differently inevitably costs money, which I thought is exactly the opposite of what people want based on this thread?! You can't have it both ways. As Benni mentioned previously, Comp Eliminator is a great playground for those who wish to explore something different. You could run anything from a rotary powered altered to a a straight 6 turbo dragster if you wanted, but Comp gets snubbed because of cost. If you want to qualify number one at the US nationals, then yeah you probably need to be on the ball a bit, the Summer Nats at Santa Pod on the other hand, probably wouldn't require a 7 figure budget. If people want to be different then there are options already.
I agree that outlawing John's Nissan from Pro Mod was a bit of a head scratcher, but had it been allowed in and developed in to a 6.1 or 6.2 second runner, do you think it would represent an option that was any cheaper to build or run that a turbo Hemi?! Ekanoo's 5 second six-banger Supra is an amazing bit of kit too, but again, I'd wager that you could assemble a blown Hemi and run it at similar ETs for the same price or less. If you want costs capped then you have to have limits; can you imagine the R&D budgets in pro stock for example if any engine combo was allowed?! They'd probably have a dozen dynos running with a dozen different bespoke engine combos 24/7 until either the middle east ran out of oil for the fuel, or everyone went bankrupt. All opening the door to more engine types would do in Pro Mod is create more parity headaches.
I get when your coming from Andy, but I disagree that innovation costs money......bike engines for example cost peanuts compared to big engine cars,,,,,my busa motor costs about 2k on eBay, strap it into my funny car and it will run low 10s, a shot of nitrous and it runs mid 9s......my whole car cost 10k to build! It's a shame that classes like comp eliminator or supergas don't allow for such innovation, especially in the modern era....maybe those rules are out of date, or maybe they don't want to change them because they are affraid of change....who knows! I'd love to run in super gas or comp eliminator if my car was legal but it's not, so I've got pro et, or if I turbo charge or supercharge I've got super pro....I agree that outlawing John's Nissan from Pro Mod was a bit of a head scratcher, but had it been allowed in and developed in to a 6.1 or 6.2 second runner, do you think it would represent an option that was any cheaper to build or run that a turbo Hemi?! Ekanoo's 5 second six-banger Supra is an amazing bit of kit too, but again, I'd wager that you could assemble a blown Hemi and run it at similar ETs for the same price or less. If you want costs capped then you have to have limits; can you imagine the R&D budgets in pro stock for example if any engine combo was allowed?! They'd probably have a dozen dynos running with a dozen different bespoke engine combos 24/7 until either the middle east ran out of oil for the fuel, or everyone went bankrupt. All opening the door to more engine types would do in Pro Mod is create more parity headaches.
...it's a shame that classes available don't cater for different cars....especially in classes that run to an index...it shouldn't really matter what car it is aslong as it runs the numbers
...I would love to run heads up, but as it stands I've got pro et, which like I've said before is a cracking class....would be cool to run a couple of classes if rules allowed tho!
tyre size,tyre size just look at the 10.5 classes, drop to a 8.5inch wide tyre then see who,s brave enough!!!!!!or who can tune their s
t, regarding throttle stops, its a racers class not a spectators, just look at the entries for the super classes always reasonably healthy,interesting point look at what class the majority of top sportsman winners came from or race in. Personally I really enjoy running a throttlestop, with big cubic inch, short wheelbase, you really need to be able to understand the dynamics of how it affects your car,s characteristics,Now throw into the equation the limiting factor of a narrow tyre annnnnnnnd,..........I,ll get me coat,
t, regarding throttle stops, its a racers class not a spectators, just look at the entries for the super classes always reasonably healthy,interesting point look at what class the majority of top sportsman winners came from or race in. Personally I really enjoy running a throttlestop, with big cubic inch, short wheelbase, you really need to be able to understand the dynamics of how it affects your car,s characteristics,Now throw into the equation the limiting factor of a narrow tyre annnnnnnnd,..........I,ll get me coat,Just to follow on from this now old discussion, take a look at this and how its run and tell me this wouldn't work here with perhaps a few minor changes guys.......affordable "Fair" Heads Up the way it should be, and you can build it the way you want to which is what most do anyway.
https://youtu.be/gprFiNJJQ3s
https://youtu.be/gprFiNJJQ3s
Edited by RB446 on Friday 21st October 16:59
Edited by RB446 on Friday 21st October 16:59
Edited by RB446 on Friday 21st October 17:01
Edited by RB446 on Friday 21st October 17:02
Quite unbelievable that this has been dragged back up but you're actually serious aren't you Les?
So you'd like 300 cars to turn up. All of them should "promise" to run as quick as they can on two timed runs. The times won't be shown on the scoreboards. Then someone should pick 16 of them who are grouped close together on ET but really are actually who they like the most and who might look interesting. The rest will get sent home, including some within the bracket who just didn't look right. Then they should run "heads-up" but some guy in the tower will keep looking at the timing computer and will arbitrarily decide if someone has gone too fast BUT of course we won't call that a break-out we'll just make out he is cheating. The winner will be the guy who has the most consistent car, who cuts a decent light and can race the top end without "cheating". This sounds like the perfect solution to championship drag racing does it?
So lets say I turn up to an event run on that system...
I take 300rpm out of the shift and run a little fat for the timed runs. The race director picks 16 cars between 7.60 and 7.80. I'm at the lower end of that with my 7.65. I put the 300rpm back in the shift knowing that will take me down to 7.62. That is enough to get me through the first round against a much slower car. A round later I decide to lean it out a little to make sure of keeping my nose in front. The car will now run 7.58 but the guy in the tower isn't going to say I'm cheating with that. As night draws in the air has come down by almost 1200ft. I go back to the original shift rpm to go no quicker than 7.59. The guy in the other lane who isn't used to running in heat/at altitude runs the setup he came in with and runs his regular numbers at 7.52 and the guy in the tower says he's cheating even though he's run the car exactly the same all night. I go to the final and put the shift rpm back up and lean it out knowing that I can run 7.50 flat. I leave in front of the guy in the other lane and feather the throttle at 800ft but keep the nose in front. I run 7.56 (sounding like I ran it out of the back door and the mph isn't much down) and get to the stripe first. The other guy runs 7.51 and the bloke in the tower says he was cheating anyway so there's no way he could have beat me.
Pinks All Out isn't all-out, heads-up anything. Its bracket racing in such a small bracket it doesn't need a handicapped tree to look close and may as well be index racing (you know like that throttle stop stuff you hate so much). Its a TV show. It is edited so you don't hear any top end games and throttle whomps because they can't be policed by a know-nothing on the start line. Next you'll be wanting no-prep bullst on the return road because you've watched too much Street Outlaws...
I chose to go SuPro racing because I enjoy watching it. Many real drag racing fans do, just like I love Comp Eliminator. I could afford to do all sorts of other racing, but I chose SuPro as I love the tactical nature of the racing at that level. Those who don't understand it usually choose to not understand because it doesn't fit their drag racing political bias. That's fine by me. I don't go around expecting anyone to watch me and find what I do interesting or exciting. If they do, and a few people have come to tell me that they do over the last couple of years, then that is very nice and means we have people watching drag racing who have enough depth to their interest to not just want to see big long noisy cars making flames and scary doorcars struggling to keep it out of the barrier. Those are people like I was. Some of them have 30 years and more sat on the bank or in the stands. They really are quite knowledgeable and a good percentage of them actually like bracket racing. They're not the thousands on the bank for the EuroFinals that keep the sport afloat that is true, but those people weren't SuMo fans either. They are the hard core who are still there watching the final rounds at the National Finals - and they matter.
So you'd like 300 cars to turn up. All of them should "promise" to run as quick as they can on two timed runs. The times won't be shown on the scoreboards. Then someone should pick 16 of them who are grouped close together on ET but really are actually who they like the most and who might look interesting. The rest will get sent home, including some within the bracket who just didn't look right. Then they should run "heads-up" but some guy in the tower will keep looking at the timing computer and will arbitrarily decide if someone has gone too fast BUT of course we won't call that a break-out we'll just make out he is cheating. The winner will be the guy who has the most consistent car, who cuts a decent light and can race the top end without "cheating". This sounds like the perfect solution to championship drag racing does it?
So lets say I turn up to an event run on that system...
I take 300rpm out of the shift and run a little fat for the timed runs. The race director picks 16 cars between 7.60 and 7.80. I'm at the lower end of that with my 7.65. I put the 300rpm back in the shift knowing that will take me down to 7.62. That is enough to get me through the first round against a much slower car. A round later I decide to lean it out a little to make sure of keeping my nose in front. The car will now run 7.58 but the guy in the tower isn't going to say I'm cheating with that. As night draws in the air has come down by almost 1200ft. I go back to the original shift rpm to go no quicker than 7.59. The guy in the other lane who isn't used to running in heat/at altitude runs the setup he came in with and runs his regular numbers at 7.52 and the guy in the tower says he's cheating even though he's run the car exactly the same all night. I go to the final and put the shift rpm back up and lean it out knowing that I can run 7.50 flat. I leave in front of the guy in the other lane and feather the throttle at 800ft but keep the nose in front. I run 7.56 (sounding like I ran it out of the back door and the mph isn't much down) and get to the stripe first. The other guy runs 7.51 and the bloke in the tower says he was cheating anyway so there's no way he could have beat me.
Pinks All Out isn't all-out, heads-up anything. Its bracket racing in such a small bracket it doesn't need a handicapped tree to look close and may as well be index racing (you know like that throttle stop stuff you hate so much). Its a TV show. It is edited so you don't hear any top end games and throttle whomps because they can't be policed by a know-nothing on the start line. Next you'll be wanting no-prep bulls
t on the return road because you've watched too much Street Outlaws...I chose to go SuPro racing because I enjoy watching it. Many real drag racing fans do, just like I love Comp Eliminator. I could afford to do all sorts of other racing, but I chose SuPro as I love the tactical nature of the racing at that level. Those who don't understand it usually choose to not understand because it doesn't fit their drag racing political bias. That's fine by me. I don't go around expecting anyone to watch me and find what I do interesting or exciting. If they do, and a few people have come to tell me that they do over the last couple of years, then that is very nice and means we have people watching drag racing who have enough depth to their interest to not just want to see big long noisy cars making flames and scary doorcars struggling to keep it out of the barrier. Those are people like I was. Some of them have 30 years and more sat on the bank or in the stands. They really are quite knowledgeable and a good percentage of them actually like bracket racing. They're not the thousands on the bank for the EuroFinals that keep the sport afloat that is true, but those people weren't SuMo fans either. They are the hard core who are still there watching the final rounds at the National Finals - and they matter.
Tet said:
What's this progression you think is missing? What's the problem you're trying to solve? As I've said repeatedly, there seems to be little evidence that people are avoiding the heads up pro classes because of the type of racing they did at lower levels. In pretty much every case that I've encountered, the reason they don't step up is money. Let's look at the UK drivers that have stepped up to Pro Mod in the years that I've been involved with the sport, and what they were doing before that:
Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET
Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
I have been reading this thread with great interest having been spectating from 1967, and racing from 1973 -93 These Bracket Vs Heads up Vs Class, vs Rules arguments have always been part of the racing scene.Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET
Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
But what struck me from Tet's post re Pro Mod, is that at least two of those moving up (Paula and Wayne) were part of the Rover V8 championship - Heads up and fairly tight rules..... So they have certainly stayed with it and just keep going faster!
TheMighty said:
Quite unbelievable that this has been dragged back up but you're actually serious aren't you Les?
Pinks All Out isn't all-out, heads-up anything. Its bracket racing in such a small bracket it doesn't need a handicapped tree to look close and may as well be index racing (you know like that throttle stop stuff you hate so much). Its a TV show. It is edited so you don't hear any top end games and throttle whomps because they can't be policed by a know-nothing on the start line. Next you'll be wanting no-prep bullst on the return road because you've watched too much Street Outlaws...
.
So why is it unbelievable that I've bought this up again, I'd like to see fairer heads up racing for the average guy in the Uk, whats wrong with that?, trying to get any form of it with proper rules is out by the look of things, this seems to me a way it could work with some changes as I said. You think its a load of B*llocks, well your entitled to your opinion just as I am, but what a cynical view you have of things. A TV show it may be, and there may be a few things that are edited to make it better viewing, but that aside, it doesn't mean the "idea itself" is bad and couldn't be run here better and properly does it, its a different approach, and you have to look further than what you see on video and what YOU think is or may be going on there, its how its run here that matters and its a glimmer of hope for heads up racing where you can still build what you want and how you want without any constraints with too many specific rules. You may have a point re its B/racing within a tight margin, but We could have a looser spread in ET's which would at least make it somewhat fairer than any other HU type racing thats ever been held here.Pinks All Out isn't all-out, heads-up anything. Its bracket racing in such a small bracket it doesn't need a handicapped tree to look close and may as well be index racing (you know like that throttle stop stuff you hate so much). Its a TV show. It is edited so you don't hear any top end games and throttle whomps because they can't be policed by a know-nothing on the start line. Next you'll be wanting no-prep bulls
t on the return road because you've watched too much Street Outlaws....
As far as getting 300 cars, well thats not going to happen here but you should get enough to run a good Qualy session and then pick an Elim field. We are not talking about 7 sec cars, there's not enough of them so no point, its irrelevant, if you run 7's you can go and run CE or any of the no rules TS heads up races you want that happen here. This is for the majority of door cars that run in the 9>10 sec bracket of which there are plenty of here, and that includes most of the new NSS class thats sprung up along with many others that can run similar times. Yes it will need tweaking to suit us here but your just not giving it a chance at all which is exactly the negative response you get from most when trying to introduce anything else but brackets/index racing.
And lastly, as to your comments about no prep and me watching street outlaws, well I thought I was discussing things with people who could contribute something worthwhile in a sensible discussion about our sport, others may not agree and thats ok, thats what a discussion is all about, but there's no need to bring things down to a lower level......and by the way, yes I think watching Street Outlaws albeit hyped up for the camera is still better than watching brackets/index racing (with throttle stops) even if you know whats going on, its not my thing, but again, thats just me, I don't try to bring people down who do it.
QED
Gassing Station | Drag Racing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff