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davidcharles

336 posts

78 months

[news] 
Saturday 29th September 2012 quote quote all
Remember that the fn2 has much better steering than the ep3, better wet weather traction due to its vsa, lower vtec crossover, better interior and feels more stable on the road. Also remember most people will have driven or owned a gt spec fn2 (heavier than a standard fn2 due to air con, fogs, auto lights, auto wipers etc etc). Personally I don' t get some of the negative criticism if the fn2, it's a hard riding, thrashy hatch ... Some will like that some won't. As I have said before Honda's mistake wasn't the gt spec fn2 it was the standard spec one not being sparse enough.

Red 4

2,317 posts

71 months

[news] 
Sunday 30th September 2012 quote quote all
davidcharles said:
Remember that the fn2 has much better steering than the ep3, better wet weather traction due to its vsa, lower vtec crossover, better interior and feels more stable on the road. Also remember most people will have driven or owned a gt spec fn2 (heavier than a standard fn2 due to air con, fogs, auto lights, auto wipers etc etc). Personally I don' t get some of the negative criticism if the fn2, it's a hard riding, thrashy hatch.
Because it feels BIG (it is very wide), heavy and very un-Type R'ish

Steering feel is good as is the gearbox, engine (if you like v-tec) and seats... and that's about it

Handling is good if you can live with absolutely zero compliance in the suspension. It was the worst car I have ever owned in that respect. The suspension set-up is ridiculous, very jiggly and crashy. I think Honda forgot to fit shocks or dampers.

PS you forgot to mention electric folding mirrors on the GT (which you will need if you garage the car; it won't fit through a standard garage door without folding the mirrors. It really is that wide !!)


otolith

25,024 posts

88 months

[news] 
Sunday 30th September 2012 quote quote all
I think the FN2 was an attempt to broaden the appeal of the car in a manner that did not harmonise well with the character of the drivetrain. While it's something really special for the enthusiast, I don't think that brilliant engine has mass market appeal. Even with the superb gearbox it's casting pearls before swine.

I also wonder to what extent Honda struggled to make the torsion beam rear suspension work. It's not just the Type-R, the cooking models of that generation got panned for ride quality too. The EP3's ride quality was pretty harsh, especially in the rear, but it was tolerable - perhaps Honda just couldn't apply the same sort of body control without completely ruining the ride? Renault and PSA get away with it, but they've been doing it that way for years.

P1H

295 posts

32 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
I think the FN2 was an attempt to broaden the appeal of the car in a manner that did not harmonise well with the character of the drivetrain. While it's something really special for the enthusiast, I don't think that brilliant engine has mass market appeal. Even with the superb gearbox it's casting pearls before swine.

I also wonder to what extent Honda struggled to make the torsion beam rear suspension work. It's not just the Type-R, the cooking models of that generation got panned for ride quality too. The EP3's ride quality was pretty harsh, especially in the rear, but it was tolerable - perhaps Honda just couldn't apply the same sort of body control without completely ruining the ride? Renault and PSA get away with it, but they've been doing it that way for years.
I think you have hit the nail on the head there. (+ the needless added weight which has probably arisen as part of broadening the appeal)

Type R Tom

649 posts

33 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
To sort the ride a FRS along with new springs really helps, one of the most common mods on civic forums. I've got an FN2 and when I bought second hand in 2009 I test drove all the other hot hatches on the market and for me it gave the best bang per buck out of them all and by a long way.

The Golf, Mini, Focus were better but cost an awful lot more, I'm still pleased with my purchase. I think it has one of the best interiors; most others look boring in comparison!

As for the engine you do need to learn a new way of driving, I find there is just about enough to overtake at 70mph on the motorway and if you need more just drop it a gear. It’s not a motor way cruiser but get it above 5500 rpm on a country lane and you’ll quickly learn to love it.

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Pixelpeep

2,628 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Type R Tom said:
overtake at 70mph on the motorway and if you need more just drop it a gear. It’s not a motor way cruiser but get it above 5500 rpm on a country lane and you’ll quickly learn to love it.
it was two gears for me in the EP3..

agree with that sentiment though - the only place it makes sense was a weekend, empty twisty road and half a tank of shells finest smile

i echo my earlier statement, in standard form it is not a good 'all round' car - which takes away the spirit of a hot hatch really doesn't it?

Type R Tom

649 posts

33 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
It depends what you mean by all rounder. I don’t have to commute in it that regularly but when I do I can get 37mpg on the dash and the cruise control is great.

I can take 4 adults with luggage in fair comfort (space opposed to ride) and put my bike in the back without taking the wheels off.

As I said when I was looking it did represent the best all rounder for me when comparing to the rival, budget, size, speed:

Mini cooper s – fun to drive but too small and a little expensive.
Golf GTi – lovely but couldn’t afford it
Focus ST – only orange ones available in my budget.
Megane – didn’t like the looks

At £14k it was the most I’d ever spent (or probably likely to ever spend again) on a car that I wanted to keep for a few years, I spent a long time thinking about it and weighing up the options. It has its problems but I don’t regret the decision.

otolith

25,024 posts

88 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Pixelpeep said:
i echo my earlier statement, in standard form it is not a good 'all round' car - which takes away the spirit of a hot hatch really doesn't it?
I found it perfectly acceptable for an all-rounder, but then it depends what you want out of a car. For most people, a base model Civic is a perfectly acceptable all-rounder, and apart from the ride quality the type-R model is at least as good in every way at doing the day to day stuff.

If you buy a hot hatch because you can't live with a sports car, the EP3 is fine. If you buy one because you can't afford an Audi RS4, it isn't. I still think that's the basic division between hot hatch buyers - for the former, there are Type-Rs and Renaultsports, for the latter, Golf GTis and Audi S3s.

Pixelpeep

2,628 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
I found it perfectly acceptable for an all-rounder, but then it depends what you want out of a car. For most people, a base model Civic is a perfectly acceptable all-rounder, and apart from the ride quality the type-R model is at least as good in every way at doing the day to day stuff.

If you buy a hot hatch because you can't live with a sports car, the EP3 is fine. If you buy one because you can't afford an Audi RS4, it isn't. I still think that's the basic division between hot hatch buyers - for the former, there are Type-Rs and Renaultsports, for the latter, Golf GTis and Audi S3s.
i realise this may be a can-o-worms but the original Golf GTi was completely practical in every sense but you can have some fun in it at the same time.

My understanding of a hot-hatch is a compromise to give an all round package. Performance, practicality, low running costs and comfort. The Type-R was NOT comfortable on the 12 mile commute to Barking, East London every day. The suspension on them is just not set up for comfort on UK roads.

If you take away something that makes it an all rounder you make it focused. if its focused it's a sports car, hatchback or otherwise.

I am in the 'R32, Audi S3' category and equally because i can't afford an RS4. Actually i can't afford any of them which is why i currently drive an Astra VXR.

Most say 'it depends what you want out of a car' but Hot hatch used to mean you could have everything.

IMO of course smile

davidcharles

336 posts

78 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
to be fair , no type r's are "comfortable". Thats not what they are about. Not many people would buy them as a daily commuter/cruiser. I agree the FN2 is over stiff but it doesn't bother me and a few cheap "mods" can rectify it if it bothers you....the engine and gearbox make up for it anyway!

otolith

25,024 posts

88 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
When MKI Golf GTis stalked the Earth, small family hatches of any spec were fairly spartan and unrefined places to be which didn't really overlap with the bottom end of the exec saloon market. I would pin the branching of the hot hatch market between sporty and luxurious to the arrival of the MKIII Golf VR6.

The EP3 is more like those early hot hatches in character - it isn't that they could do it all and it can't, it is that the expectation of what doing it all includes has changed.

Pixelpeep

2,628 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
The EP3 is more like those early hot hatches in character - it isn't that they could do it all and it can't, it is that the expectation of what doing it all includes has changed.
maybe.

the other issue here is possibly age - im in my 30's and therefore don't want the 'drama' of a hot hatch that others do. so i guess where others are ok with making exceptions, i am not.

just to add, don't want to sound like im down on the Type-R.. i enjoyed (on the whole) my 3 years of ownership it was a great car and never put a foot wrong - its just my age.. ignore me smile

otolith

25,024 posts

88 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
There may be an element of that - I was 29 when I took delivery of my EP3, ten years ago last month.

On the other hand, my daily driver these days is an Elise 111R wink

Pixelpeep

2,628 posts

26 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
otolith said:
On the other hand, my daily driver these days is an Elise 111R wink
You know that very car is what made me realise that i was actually getting older..

The OH and I walked past one a few weeks ago and i caught myself saying to her 'gawd... i couldn't imagine climbing down into that every day....'

WTF is happening to me ?! frown

otolith

25,024 posts

88 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
laugh

It's dead easy to get into, once you've got the knack. Watching people who haven't got the knack trying to get out of it is the funniest bit!

havoc

21,104 posts

119 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Re: ride quality, my ITR is no worse than Becs' MkV GTi on 18"s. But it's noisier and needs more use of the (very nice) gearbox. I've used it as a daily for 4 years now, and my previous one for 3 years some time ago - unless you have to have toys or commute big distances, it's rarely a problem.

What it does give, and this is where the EP and FN fall down for me, is a lot more involvement and feedback than e.g. the Golf. But then most modern performance cars do - was massively disappointed by the Mk3 MX5.


Only changing now because need 4 doors and better crash protection.

rossub

438 posts

74 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Type R Tom said:
It depends what you mean by all rounder. I don’t have to commute in it that regularly but when I do I can get 37mpg on the dash and the cruise control is great.

I can take 4 adults with luggage in fair comfort (space opposed to ride) and put my bike in the back without taking the wheels off.

As I said when I was looking it did represent the best all rounder for me when comparing to the rival, budget, size, speed:

Mini cooper s – fun to drive but too small and a little expensive.
Golf GTi – lovely but couldn’t afford it
Focus ST – only orange ones available in my budget.
Megane – didn’t like the looks

At £14k it was the most I’d ever spent (or probably likely to ever spend again) on a car that I wanted to keep for a few years, I spent a long time thinking about it and weighing up the options. It has its problems but I don’t regret the decision.
Similar situation to me. I got my FN2 last week after months of trying to decide which hot hatch I wanted.

Clio 200 - don't like the interior (bar the recaros) and likely to be unreliable. Reports of poor economy
Cooper s - too small and just a bit girly
Golf gti - too bland and anonymous looking
Seat Leon - never wanted a Seat
Focus st - too thirsty
Civic EP3 - too old now and a bit boy racer-ish
Audi S3 - still too pricey

Civic FN2 - lovely interior, reliable, not too thirsty, plenty of room, good value, quick, good looking IMO

Sure it's not the best type r, but it does a lot of things very well.

vixen1700

8,073 posts

154 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
laugh at some of the comments, I've just turned 46 and love my EP3 on my 40 mile a day commute.

Nothing sensible to add really

Pixelpeep

2,628 posts

26 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
vixen1700 said:
laugh at some of the comments, I've just turned 46 and love my EP3 on my 40 mile a day commute.

Nothing sensible to add really
where do you work?

vixen1700

8,073 posts

154 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Pixelpeep said:
where do you work?
Cambridge, so it's a combination of nice twisty bits and a stretch of quick motorway. A nice EP3 commute. smile

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