EP3 Honda Civic Type R: Are they any good?
Discussion
Guys,
My budget really isn't going to get me a decent E46 M3, or even a half decent 350Z, Ive always loved the look of the Civic Type R EP3 but is its performance any good? Obviously compared to an E46 M3 with 340+BHP I'm guessing not, but is the real world performance of the car sufficient?
My budget is about £5,000 give or take, and REALLY decent CTR's seem to actually be less than that on 2005 plates. I also quite like the practicality of them.
I walk to work as it's a 5 minute journey, and the missus has to catch the bus as there is no parking where she works, so it won't be used constantly. Every other day or so I could imagine, but we do need a car for shopping, trips etc etc...
Personally I would rather get a mint condition Type R than a ropey bargain basement 350Z or M3. My father in law has an S2000 which I have driven extensively quite a few times and I LOVE the Vetec engine. Alot of my mates don't like it but I love having to rev the nuts off of it,
And as it won't be a daily driver but more of a weekend racer I won't be stuck in traffic alot but ragging it around country lanes / B roads etc. (All within the confines of the law of course, and to be honest alot of country lane's 60 Limits are just ridiculous)
Really I want everyone to big them up and to tell me to get off my backside and go and get one,
But yeah, advice and help and buying advice would be really appreciated. Thanks!
My budget really isn't going to get me a decent E46 M3, or even a half decent 350Z, Ive always loved the look of the Civic Type R EP3 but is its performance any good? Obviously compared to an E46 M3 with 340+BHP I'm guessing not, but is the real world performance of the car sufficient?
My budget is about £5,000 give or take, and REALLY decent CTR's seem to actually be less than that on 2005 plates. I also quite like the practicality of them.
I walk to work as it's a 5 minute journey, and the missus has to catch the bus as there is no parking where she works, so it won't be used constantly. Every other day or so I could imagine, but we do need a car for shopping, trips etc etc...
Personally I would rather get a mint condition Type R than a ropey bargain basement 350Z or M3. My father in law has an S2000 which I have driven extensively quite a few times and I LOVE the Vetec engine. Alot of my mates don't like it but I love having to rev the nuts off of it,
And as it won't be a daily driver but more of a weekend racer I won't be stuck in traffic alot but ragging it around country lanes / B roads etc. (All within the confines of the law of course, and to be honest alot of country lane's 60 Limits are just ridiculous)Really I want everyone to big them up and to tell me to get off my backside and go and get one,
But yeah, advice and help and buying advice would be really appreciated. Thanks!
I bought one back in September (came from an MR2 turbo, and interim Pajero 2.8 SWB), and I'm really in two minds about it. On the one hand, when you're in the mood to thrash it, it's quite good fun, and more than capable of giving you a good drive on a B road. Mine is on eibach springs, cat back exhaust and a K&N panel filter.
On the other hand though, the engine has such little torque that driving around town can be a pain in the arse. You really do have the thrash the engine to get anything out of it in reality. Downshifting to easily get past someone on a motorway is pretty common. Also the interior is quite basic, with the premier editions being slightly saved by the lovely Recaro seats. I'm slightly disappointed by it to be honest. Funnily enough I am looking at getting a 350Z or similar in the next few months.
On the other hand though, the engine has such little torque that driving around town can be a pain in the arse. You really do have the thrash the engine to get anything out of it in reality. Downshifting to easily get past someone on a motorway is pretty common. Also the interior is quite basic, with the premier editions being slightly saved by the lovely Recaro seats. I'm slightly disappointed by it to be honest. Funnily enough I am looking at getting a 350Z or similar in the next few months.
Edited by vtecyo on Monday 6th January 12:13
Edited by vtecyo on Monday 6th January 12:15
Had mine 6 - 7 years now, dont recall ever downshifting on the motorway, unless you want to get over 100 quickly !
If you liked the S2000 engine, the CTR engine is much better in everyday use i believe but a little less lively at the top end.
I've used mine as a daily since i had it and ragging it never gets tired, its not the most comfortable cruiser though, but the boot is big and with the seats down it swallows an awful lot of crap !
How about a DC2 - DC5 ? For something a little more special ?
If you liked the S2000 engine, the CTR engine is much better in everyday use i believe but a little less lively at the top end.
I've used mine as a daily since i had it and ragging it never gets tired, its not the most comfortable cruiser though, but the boot is big and with the seats down it swallows an awful lot of crap !
How about a DC2 - DC5 ? For something a little more special ?
If it's onlay occasional use and for mostly fun and shopping I'd be looking at a DC2 Integra Type R instead. It'sll hold it's money better and be more fun and not really any less useful every day as the civc.
Ignore all the "It's rubbish round town" nonsense, off Vtec they're just like any other 2.0 or 1.8 petrol engine. I.E perfectly fine.
Ignore all the "It's rubbish round town" nonsense, off Vtec they're just like any other 2.0 or 1.8 petrol engine. I.E perfectly fine.
vtecyo said:
Yeah I only drive mine every day around Bristol what would I know. 
He's got a point though, out of VTEC it's just like any other mid capacity NA engine, yes it won't have the low rpm torque of a diesel or petrol turbo but I found my ATR to be perfectly tractable in 5th in and around town - I live in Bristol too.After my ATR was written off a few months ago, I'm looking for a CTR or S2000 to replace it.
HorneyMX5 said:
Ignore all the "It's rubbish round town" nonsense, off Vtec they're just like any other 2.0 or 1.8 petrol engine. I.E perfectly fine.
Agree with that, just as easy as any other car around town and with the close ratio box they are surprisingly flexible for around town driving. There not perfect in anyway but as you say you like the revy engines so you should enjoy it and understand why you just ignore the lack of torque comments. There's plenty to choose from so you should find a good one quite easily.Now get off your arse and go get one
Matt_N said:
He's got a point though, out of VTEC it's just like any other mid capacity NA engine, yes it won't have the low rpm torque of a diesel or petrol turbo but I found my ATR to be perfectly tractable in 5th in and around town - I live in Bristol too.
After my ATR was written off a few months ago, I'm looking for a CTR or S2000 to replace it.
The H22 is completely different altogether. I guess it just comes down to personal opinion in the end... I personally find it gutless. But then after a boosted MR2 and a 2.8td pajero, who wouldn't?After my ATR was written off a few months ago, I'm looking for a CTR or S2000 to replace it.
Good fun on a blast though don't get me wrong. I haven't bought a car I hate!
For a weekend hack though, I'd go DC2. Although your Mrs will probably not like it!
Edited by vtecyo on Monday 6th January 14:19
Edited by vtecyo on Monday 6th January 14:20
HorneyMX5 said:
If it's only occasional use and for mostly fun and shopping I'd be looking at a DC2 Integra Type R instead. It'll hold it's money better and be more fun and not really any less useful every day as the civic.
Ignore all the "It's rubbish round town" nonsense, off Vtec they're just like any other 2.0 or 1.8 petrol engine. I.E perfectly fine.
As above - DC2 or DC5. Ignore all the "It's rubbish round town" nonsense, off Vtec they're just like any other 2.0 or 1.8 petrol engine. I.E perfectly fine.
Had 2 DC2s as daily drivers - 9 years and c.100k miles between them. Due to gearing, the 1.8 doesn't feel any less torquey than the UKDM EP3 2.0 (JDM K20s (DC5, FD2) DO feel stronger, IMHO), plus the B18 sounds better, both ITRs have better driving positions and MUCH better steering (DC2 especially), plus a proper LSD which makes a huge difference.
Issue with the DC2 is rust...they're old cars now, but COMPLETELY on condition, and on the owner.
Issue with the DC5 is insurance - JDM car.
Alternatively, what about an E36 M3? Running costs will be a little higher but it's still 300bhp, M-sport engineering, rwd and a practical boot...
vtecyo said:
On the other hand though, the engine has such little torque that driving around town can be a pain in the arse. You really do have the thrash the engine to get anything out of it in reality.
Sorry, but if a Civic Type-R doesn't have enough go at low revs for town driving, you're driving like a bit of a t
t.otolith said:
Sorry, but if a Civic Type-R doesn't have enough go at low revs for town driving, you're driving like a bit of a tt.
You don't need "go" for town driving though so I'm not sure what you're getting at. To me, the engine feels sluggish around town. Am I not allowed an opinion on this?t.It's a VTEC engine, it is gutless low down, but fiery up top. Some people like it, some people don't. Don't cry about it.
A basic 1.4 Civic has more than enough low down performance to be driven around town, and even at peak torque it only has about 3/4 of what the Type-R makes at 3000rpm. I just don't understand how you can find it "sluggish" or that "driving around town can be a pain in the arse" as you drive it carefully and responsibly around Bristol's 20 and 30 mph zones. You're only ever going to be tickling the throttle anyway.
My fault, I think I've phrased it completely wrong to get my point across.
Can I have another go? Here goes...
Out of VTEC, the performance is pretty dire for a hot hatchback, or even a normal hatchback really. The engine is designed to be thrashed, as all the power is at the top end. I liked it when I first got it, but it gets a bit tiresome after a while, and after being used to getting pinned back from 3k RPM up in the seat in the Toyota, VTEC just seems a little disappointing really. Does that make more sense?
It is a good car don't get me wrong, and fantastic fun for a weekend thrash (which seems more what the OP wants), but for me personally, a little more torque would be nice. I drove a Mini Cooper S JCW (supercharged) which was buckets more fun and nicer to drive overall in my opinion.
I'm not very good at explaining things like this but hopefully that's a little more understandable!
Can I have another go? Here goes...
Out of VTEC, the performance is pretty dire for a hot hatchback, or even a normal hatchback really. The engine is designed to be thrashed, as all the power is at the top end. I liked it when I first got it, but it gets a bit tiresome after a while, and after being used to getting pinned back from 3k RPM up in the seat in the Toyota, VTEC just seems a little disappointing really. Does that make more sense?
It is a good car don't get me wrong, and fantastic fun for a weekend thrash (which seems more what the OP wants), but for me personally, a little more torque would be nice. I drove a Mini Cooper S JCW (supercharged) which was buckets more fun and nicer to drive overall in my opinion.
I'm not very good at explaining things like this but hopefully that's a little more understandable!
Edited by vtecyo on Monday 6th January 16:06
Yeah that makes more sense, you like the power delivery of turbo cars.
The Honda Vtec lumps aren't gutless below 5K, they are the same as any normal NA engine you'll find in a focus or Golf. The problem is a percieved one due to the large disparity between on and off Vtec.
You are right of course, it doesn't feel liek a hot hatch off Vtec, but then that's kinda of the whole point. Normal hatchback performance and fuel economy (for the time) while pottering about town, hothatch performance and MPG to suit when "On it".
I think essentially they're marmite cars. I love mine (FN2 Civic) because you really have to drive it to get the performance like picking the right gear for the right situation. It encourages forthought whenever you're out and giving it the beans and when you get it right it really rewards you. But for many people these days they don't want to be stirring the box and just want to floor the throttle and go which the turbo cars deliver really well.
Horses for courses.
FOr anyone thinking of buying any of the Type Rs you really need to drive one (prefferably for a reaonable amount of time) to decide if it's for you or not.
The Honda Vtec lumps aren't gutless below 5K, they are the same as any normal NA engine you'll find in a focus or Golf. The problem is a percieved one due to the large disparity between on and off Vtec.
You are right of course, it doesn't feel liek a hot hatch off Vtec, but then that's kinda of the whole point. Normal hatchback performance and fuel economy (for the time) while pottering about town, hothatch performance and MPG to suit when "On it".
I think essentially they're marmite cars. I love mine (FN2 Civic) because you really have to drive it to get the performance like picking the right gear for the right situation. It encourages forthought whenever you're out and giving it the beans and when you get it right it really rewards you. But for many people these days they don't want to be stirring the box and just want to floor the throttle and go which the turbo cars deliver really well.
Horses for courses.
FOr anyone thinking of buying any of the Type Rs you really need to drive one (prefferably for a reaonable amount of time) to decide if it's for you or not.
If having to rev a car appeals, you'll like a vtec engine.
For a weekend car, stretch your budget and get an S2000, chalk and cheese with the EP3.
If you can't stretch, or need the practically, get a DC2 ITR. If you can't afford one, then the EP3 would be my 3rd choice.
DC5 is out of your budget, but if you could stretch to one, and need practically, consider that too.
Torque on these engines is similar to any NA car of the same capacity, but, it is perhaps more noticeable on these cars as the difference between on/off vtec is night and day.
My daily commute of 12.5 miles each way, I get 1, and only 1 place where I have an opportunity to use VTEC. And even in a straight line (it was damp I think) I managed to break traction, so they're fast cars when wound up (s2k more so than the ctr
)
For a weekend car, stretch your budget and get an S2000, chalk and cheese with the EP3.
If you can't stretch, or need the practically, get a DC2 ITR. If you can't afford one, then the EP3 would be my 3rd choice.
DC5 is out of your budget, but if you could stretch to one, and need practically, consider that too.
Torque on these engines is similar to any NA car of the same capacity, but, it is perhaps more noticeable on these cars as the difference between on/off vtec is night and day.
My daily commute of 12.5 miles each way, I get 1, and only 1 place where I have an opportunity to use VTEC. And even in a straight line (it was damp I think) I managed to break traction, so they're fast cars when wound up (s2k more so than the ctr
)I bought a ep3 brand new in 2003 and ended up keeping it for 5 years. All the chat you hear about it being underpowered around town imo is nonsense. The things to focus on are tyres, the standard bridgestones were terrible in the wet and changed as soon as possible for toyo tr1's. Rear camber arms were a warranty recall, so worth checking that's been done. Headlamp adjusters also go and making a clicking noise on start up so worth checking for. Overall it's a fantastic performance package. You can't compare it with the e46 m3 as that's in a different league performance and running cost wise. The 350z makes a fantastic noise but imo feels very plasticky inside and in the real world there isn't much between that and the ep3 in performance. The s2000 has a much more sense of occasion but again not much in it performance wise.
The Dc2 has been mentioned. I've had one for the past 3 years. I love it, the ep3 feels a lot more modern but the dc2 is far more involved and on a run really is brilliant to drive. My wife has probably been in it 3 times as she hates it, whereas she would drive the ep3 on a daily basis. The LSD on the dc2 makes it a joy to drive in all conditions. Really depends on what your looking for. The ep3 is a great car with a modern feel, the dc2 is a brilliant car with a hardcore feel that will put a smile on your face every time you drive it.
Cheers,
C
The Dc2 has been mentioned. I've had one for the past 3 years. I love it, the ep3 feels a lot more modern but the dc2 is far more involved and on a run really is brilliant to drive. My wife has probably been in it 3 times as she hates it, whereas she would drive the ep3 on a daily basis. The LSD on the dc2 makes it a joy to drive in all conditions. Really depends on what your looking for. The ep3 is a great car with a modern feel, the dc2 is a brilliant car with a hardcore feel that will put a smile on your face every time you drive it.
Cheers,
C
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