NSX?

[ferrisbueller]

trackdemon said:

ferrisbueller said:

Jules360 said:

flemke said:

Jules360 said:

So to sum up... gearing too short, sounds like a Honda, iffy suspension set-up, crap brakes, badly sized tyres, poor seats and a rubbish gear lever ...

.....and you think the 355 is shite ???

I see that I failed to make myself clear.

My experience in 355s is not extensive, because I try not to waste my time driving rubbish cars. From the experience that I have had in them, and in NSXs, I would say:

- Type R's gearing is not too short, it is just short relative to standard, and therefore it is not obvious what the bhp difference is between the two.
- Sounds like an NSX. In other words, as good as a 355.
- I mentioned a particular trait of the rear wheels in droop which I would change, or at least explore if I had the time to do so. Overall the car's suspension is vastly superior to the 355's. The NSX's handling is truly world class, even today.
- The brakes are fine for road use. I said that they wouldn't hack it on a track day. In this respect they are like every other normal road car of the period, including the 355, with the sole exception of Porsches.
- No badly sized tyres at all. Bridgestone stopped distributing the original size tyres to Europe, so I changed the wheel size. No big deal.
- I didn't say that the seats were "poor". For my body, one cushion is too thick. The carbon/Kevlar seat shells are well-shaped and beautiful - better than anything I've ever seen in a Ferrari, at least prior to Challenge Stradale, and probably a bit better than those.
- I think they made a wrong choice on the size of the gear lever, although I suspect that many NSX owners would be tickled to have the gear lever that Senna preferred. What's more than slightly more important is the shift quality of the gearbox. I like the Ferrari open gate and semi-agricultural action, but the NSX shift action is the best that I have ever experienced on a road car.

A few other points of comparison, as you seem interested:

- The NSX has proper brake feel, in contrast to the 355's over-servo'd mess.
- The NSX has great steering precision and steering feel, in stark contrast to the 355's over-servo'd mess.
- The 355's engine is bigger and more powerful, so I would have to give it the nod, but there is not a great deal in it.
- The NSX's interior is miles better than the Ferrari's. Ergonomics are superior, looks are a lot better too.
- NSX's driving position and driver vision superb. 355's below average.
- The 355 is the best looking mid-engined road car that Ferrari have made, with the possible exception of the F40. As such, it looks as good as the NSX.
- Then we have build quality. Or, rather, we have Honda build quality, and we have Ferrari...personality. Is the useful life of a 355's cambelts still 5000 miles?
- Finally, we have the appeal of the badge on the bonnet. Here again, the Honda wins.

And of course this superiority is reflected in sales figures and residuals ?

Sales figures, no. Residuals, yes.

I'm not convinced there are more 355's in the world than NSX's given the popularity of the NSX in the US & Japan. Residuals are a non arguement - nobody in their right mind would buy a 60k 355, whereas an NSX is nicely run in at the same point. I like the 355 despite its faults, but its unquestionably not as 'good' a car as an NSX.

Sorry TD, I was being UK specific. I'd still like a 355 - just to look at. I could've stretched to the money for one but running costs are prohibitive, using it as my main mode of transport would've been foolish and I don't see it being a better car than the Honda.

[flemke]

trackdemon said:

I'm not convinced there are more 355's in the world than NSX's given the popularity of the NSX in the US & Japan. Residuals are a non arguement - nobody in their right mind would buy a 60k 355, whereas an NSX is nicely run in at the same point. I like the 355 despite its faults, but its unquestionably not as 'good' a car as an NSX.

355 total build: 11,206
from - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=63&...

NSX total build: 18,531 (as at end '03)
from - Brian Long book

[trackdemon]

flemke said:

trackdemon said:

I'm not convinced there are more 355's in the world than NSX's given the popularity of the NSX in the US & Japan. Residuals are a non arguement - nobody in their right mind would buy a 60k 355, whereas an NSX is nicely run in at the same point. I like the 355 despite its faults, but its unquestionably not as 'good' a car as an NSX.

355 total build: 11,206
from - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=63&...

NSX total build: 18,531 (as at end '03)
from - Brian Long book

thats what I was after: who's needs google!?

[Jules360]

flemke said:

trackdemon said:

I'm not convinced there are more 355's in the world than NSX's given the popularity of the NSX in the US & Japan. Residuals are a non arguement - nobody in their right mind would buy a 60k 355, whereas an NSX is nicely run in at the same point. I like the 355 despite its faults, but its unquestionably not as 'good' a car as an NSX.

355 total build: 11,206
from - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=63&...

NSX total build: 18,531 (as at end '03)
from - Brian Long book

So a 13 year run versus 5 years. For the record, i am not suggesting for a minute that the NSX is a bad car. As i said, i owned a 91 model car for 5 years and thoroughly enjoyed it. However, the 355 that subsequently replaced it was IMO far better. The NSX brakes were generally useless after 5 mins down my favourite country lane but superb over the same road in the 355, braking feel was equally good in both. The 355 is unboubledly quicker and makes a far better noise. In my experience, the NSX's rear lets go with very little warning, something i remember Tiff demonstrating on TG, whereas the 355 gives you far more warning and is more progressive. The 355 looks fantastic, as does the NSX from the front (Ferrari-like?), but awkward at the back with the long overhang to accommodate 2 sets of golf clubs, i believe.
As for the cambelts, they last a lot longer than 5k miles, something i cannot say for a pair of NSX rear tyres ! And Flemke, the gearchange ... the best you have ever experienced ??? Go take some test drives mate.

Edited by Jules360 on Wednesday 18th July 14:25

[nellyleelephant]

HAHA!!

I get the feeling Flemke way have driven a few more cars than just MR2's and NSX's!

[Jules360]

I'm sure he has so have no idea how he came to that conclusion... if you don't like a Ferrari / lambo open gate, then the AM V8's gearchange is way better than an NSX

[trackdemon]

Jules360 said:

I'm sure he has so have no idea how he came to that conclusion... if you don't like a Ferrari / lambo open gate, then the AM V8's gearchange is way better than an NSX

LOL. Quite simply, it is not. "Chunky", "Positive", "Mechanical" are reasonable descriptions of the AMV8 gearchange, as are "Occasionally obstructive" , "Slightly woolly" , "Imprecise".

The NSX gearchange is one of the tactile highlights of driving the car, this is not the case with the AMV8. FWIW I rather like the 355 shift, although it is unnecessarily obstructive on occasion.

[Jules360]

May i enquire how much experience you have of driving an AM V8.. or Ferraris come to that ? I ask as i am surprised by your assertion that their gearchanges are "obstructive" ..... what exactly do you mean ? I have never found them anything but precise and in the case of 355s and 360s, feeling beautifully engineered.

Edited by Jules360 on Wednesday 18th July 16:11

[flemke]

Jules360 said:

May i enquire how much experience you have of driving an AM V8.. or Ferraris come to that ? I ask as i am surprised by your assertion that their gearchanges are "obstructive" ..... what exactly do you mean ? I have never found them anything but precise and in the case of 355s and 360s, feeling beautifully engineered.

You were not addressing me, but I feel obliged to cite the 550 that I collected new from the main dealer's, for something in excess of £170k, IIRC, and on which the gearbox could not be shifted into third gear. At all.
So after I struggled with it for a while,and it got no appreciably better, I took it to Maranello Sales (main UK service agent) to be fettled.
They fettled it and returned it to me. Unfortunately, it still could not be put into third gear. At all.
Then I took it to Bob Houghton, and he sorted it in fifteen minutes.

The 360 has a good shift action, but it is not quite as nice as the NSX's.

[flemke]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The interior of that car is gorgeous. Easy to live with, comfortable, logical, handsome and a bit funky.

I'd be happy to go up against the entire motoring press on this one, although I would feel a bit guilty about fighting unarmed men.

[Jules360]

flemke said:

Jules360 said:

May i enquire how much experience you have of driving an AM V8.. or Ferraris come to that ? I ask as i am surprised by your assertion that their gearchanges are "obstructive" ..... what exactly do you mean ? I have never found them anything but precise and in the case of 355s and 360s, feeling beautifully engineered.

You were not addressing me, but I feel obliged to cite the 550 that I collected new from the main dealer's, for something in excess of £170k, IIRC, and on which the gearbox could not be shifted into third gear. At all.
So after I struggled with it for a while,and it got no appreciably better, I took it to Maranello Sales (main UK service agent) to be fettled.
They fettled it and returned it to me. Unfortunately, it still could not be put into third gear. At all.
Then I took it to Bob Houghton, and he sorted it in fifteen minutes.

The 360 has a good shift action, but it is not quite as nice as the NSX's.

What was wrong with it and why did you accept a new car that would not engage 3rd ?

[flemke]

Jules360 said:

flemke said:

Jules360 said:

May i enquire how much experience you have of driving an AM V8.. or Ferraris come to that ? I ask as i am surprised by your assertion that their gearchanges are "obstructive" ..... what exactly do you mean ? I have never found them anything but precise and in the case of 355s and 360s, feeling beautifully engineered.

You were not addressing me, but I feel obliged to cite the 550 that I collected new from the main dealer's, for something in excess of £170k, IIRC, and on which the gearbox could not be shifted into third gear. At all.
So after I struggled with it for a while,and it got no appreciably better, I took it to Maranello Sales (main UK service agent) to be fettled.
They fettled it and returned it to me. Unfortunately, it still could not be put into third gear. At all.
Then I took it to Bob Houghton, and he sorted it in fifteen minutes.

The 360 has a good shift action, but it is not quite as nice as the NSX's.

What was wrong with it and why did you accept a new car that would not engage 3rd ?

The linkage was not adjusted properly.

You collect a new car, you drive away in...1st.
You then shift up to...2nd.
After a bit you (try to) shift into 3rd. It won't go. You try different clutch techniques, you try different shifting techniques. Still it won't go.
By now you are a distance from the dealer's and, because it's a Saturday, no technician is around anyhow. So you think that this might just be something that needs a bit of bedding in, and you try to drive around it for awhile in the hope that it will improve.

[trackdemon]

Jules360 said:

May i enquire how much experience you have of driving an AM V8.. or Ferraris come to that ? I ask as i am surprised by your assertion that their gearchanges are "obstructive" ..... what exactly do you mean ? I have never found them anything but precise and in the case of 355s and 360s, feeling beautifully engineered.

Edited by Jules360 on Wednesday 18th July 16:11

FWIW something like 750miles, although it doesn't take that much to discern that the gearchange is not the best thing about that car. By obstructive I mean when pressing on engagement and gate definition is not as quick and precise as I'd like, which forced me into a slightly more deliberate gearchange method than I'd normally adopt in the NSX. Its by no means 'bad', but thats my experience.

I don't think I slighted the Ferrari gearshift as such; merely pointed out my own experience. I've done a fair few miles in a 355, and have tried a handful of 360's - the nicest changing one was my friends 110,000kilometer LHD 360. (Older) Ferrari's are always a bit recalcitrant from cold, its all part of the charm isn't it? I do really like the 360 change, it certainly has that nice feel of moving real parts of metal around and of course the classic open gate is pleasing to the eye.

[NoelWatson]

flemke said:

Jules360 said:

So to sum up... gearing too short, sounds like a Honda, iffy suspension set-up, crap brakes, badly sized tyres, poor seats and a rubbish gear lever ...

.....and you think the 355 is shite ???

I see that I failed to make myself clear.

My experience in 355s is not extensive, because I try not to waste my time driving rubbish cars. From the experience that I have had in them, and in NSXs, I would say:

- Type R's gearing is not too short, it is just short relative to standard, and therefore it is not obvious what the bhp difference is between the two.
- Sounds like an NSX. In other words, as good as a 355.
- I mentioned a particular trait of the rear wheels in droop which I would change, or at least explore if I had the time to do so. Overall the car's suspension is vastly superior to the 355's. The NSX's handling is truly world class, even today.
- The brakes are fine for road use. I said that they wouldn't hack it on a track day. In this respect they are like every other normal road car of the period, including the 355, with the sole exception of Porsches.
- No badly sized tyres at all. Bridgestone stopped distributing the original size tyres to Europe, so I changed the wheel size. No big deal.
- I didn't say that the seats were "poor". For my body, one cushion is too thick. The carbon/Kevlar seat shells are well-shaped and beautiful - better than anything I've ever seen in a Ferrari, at least prior to Challenge Stradale, and probably a bit better than those.
- I think they made a wrong choice on the size of the gear lever, although I suspect that many NSX owners would be tickled to have the gear lever that Senna preferred. What's more than slightly more important is the shift quality of the gearbox. I like the Ferrari open gate and semi-agricultural action, but the NSX shift action is the best that I have ever experienced on a road car.

A few other points of comparison, as you seem interested:

- The NSX has proper brake feel, in contrast to the 355's over-servo'd mess.
- The NSX has great steering precision and steering feel, in stark contrast to the 355's over-servo'd mess.
- The 355's engine is bigger and more powerful, so I would have to give it the nod, but there is not a great deal in it.
- The NSX's interior is miles better than the Ferrari's. Ergonomics are superior, looks are a lot better too.
- NSX's driving position and driver vision superb. 355's below average.
- The 355 is the best looking mid-engined road car that Ferrari have made, with the possible exception of the F40. As such, it looks as good as the NSX.
- Then we have build quality. Or, rather, we have Honda build quality, and we have Ferrari...personality. Is the useful life of a 355's cambelts still 5000 miles?
- Finally, we have the appeal of the badge on the bonnet. Here again, the Honda wins.

- The NSX has great steering precision and steering feel, in stark contrast to the 355's over-servo'd mess.

Unfortunately this applies to the Type R only, as the standard X suffers from electric assistance which I feel is the worst aspect of the car. I had more feel in older Peugeot shopping trolleys.

[NoelWatson]

Jules360 said:

flemke said:

trackdemon said:

I'm not convinced there are more 355's in the world than NSX's given the popularity of the NSX in the US & Japan. Residuals are a non arguement - nobody in their right mind would buy a 60k 355, whereas an NSX is nicely run in at the same point. I like the 355 despite its faults, but its unquestionably not as 'good' a car as an NSX.

355 total build: 11,206
from - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=63&...

NSX total build: 18,531 (as at end '03)
from - Brian Long book

So a 13 year run versus 5 years. For the record, i am not suggesting for a minute that the NSX is a bad car. As i said, i owned a 91 model car for 5 years and thoroughly enjoyed it. However, the 355 that subsequently replaced it was IMO far better. The NSX brakes were generally useless after 5 mins down my favourite country lane but superb over the same road in the 355, braking feel was equally good in both. The 355 is unboubledly quicker and makes a far better noise. In my experience, the NSX's rear lets go with very little warning, something i remember Tiff demonstrating on TG, whereas the 355 gives you far more warning and is more progressive. The 355 looks fantastic, as does the NSX from the front (Ferrari-like?), but awkward at the back with the long overhang to accommodate 2 sets of golf clubs, i believe.
As for the cambelts, they last a lot longer than 5k miles, something i cannot say for a pair of NSX rear tyres ! And Flemke, the gearchange ... the best you have ever experienced ??? Go take some test drives mate.

Edited by Jules360 on Wednesday 18th July 14:25

I think the later cars aren't so bad on rear tyres after they reduced the toe/in out (can't remember which)

[AR]

NoelWatson said:

Unfortunately this applies to the Type R only, as the standard X suffers from electric assistance which I feel is the worst aspect of the car. I had more feel in older Peugeot shopping trolleys.

FYI Only the early AT cars had the electric PS, the manual ones up to 1994 are non PAS.

After selling my NSX-R I looked for an early non PAS car as you can't beat the feeling IMHO. My 1999 NSX was PAS and I hated it. Horser for courses I guess.

Cheers,

AR

[trackdemon]

NoelWatson said:

I think the later cars aren't so bad on rear tyres after they reduced the toe/in out (can't remember which)

An easily applied adjustment to earlier cars also - I get well over 4k from the rears now, at the cost of slightly reduced straight line stability.

[Jules360]

flemke said:

Jules360 said:

flemke said:

Jules360 said:

May i enquire how much experience you have of driving an AM V8.. or Ferraris come to that ? I ask as i am surprised by your assertion that their gearchanges are "obstructive" ..... what exactly do you mean ? I have never found them anything but precise and in the case of 355s and 360s, feeling beautifully engineered.

You were not addressing me, but I feel obliged to cite the 550 that I collected new from the main dealer's, for something in excess of £170k, IIRC, and on which the gearbox could not be shifted into third gear. At all.
So after I struggled with it for a while,and it got no appreciably better, I took it to Maranello Sales (main UK service agent) to be fettled.
They fettled it and returned it to me. Unfortunately, it still could not be put into third gear. At all.
Then I took it to Bob Houghton, and he sorted it in fifteen minutes.

The 360 has a good shift action, but it is not quite as nice as the NSX's.

What was wrong with it and why did you accept a new car that would not engage 3rd ?

The linkage was not adjusted properly.

You collect a new car, you drive away in...1st.
You then shift up to...2nd.
After a bit you (try to) shift into 3rd. It won't go. You try different clutch techniques, you try different shifting techniques. Still it won't go.
By now you are a distance from the dealer's and, because it's a Saturday, no technician is around anyhow. So you think that this might just be something that needs a bit of bedding in, and you try to drive around it for awhile in the hope that it will improve.

Thanks for that, i was previously unsure of the order when changing up....anyway, you said you returned the thing to Maranellos for fettling, then got it back none the better. Surely you would then have done a quick about turn and returned the car to them, rather than take it to a non-franchised dealer ???

[flemke]

NoelWatson said:

I think the later cars aren't so bad on rear tyres after they reduced the toe/in out (can't remember which)

Toe-in.
Actually, it's toe-in that helps to give the handling such assurance - in almost any car.
It's true that it tends to induce wear on the outside edges of the rears.
The question, Which is more important - a car that handles beautifully, or extended tyre life?

[flemke]

Jules360 said:

Thanks for that, i was previously unsure of the order when changing up....anyway, you said you returned the thing to Maranellos for fettling, then got it back none the better. Surely you would then have done a quick about turn and returned the car to them, rather than take it to a non-franchised dealer ???

Why would I take my car back to a place that has just proved conclusively that they don't know what they're doing?