Tuning Honda DC2 1800cc for race / circuit
Discussion
Anyone got any experience of tuning these engines for circuit use, how much power can be reliably achieved from these engines, and who are the "names in the biz" in the UK for building and mapping these engines?
Would ideally be looking for a solid 250bhp if possible.
How light could I realistically expect to build a full circuit spec car for.
Finally, what were these years of manufacture of the 1800cc Type-R cars?
Would ideally be looking for a solid 250bhp if possible.
How light could I realistically expect to build a full circuit spec car for.
Finally, what were these years of manufacture of the 1800cc Type-R cars?
One I would imagine is TDI North - they've a K20 running with a K-Pro and turbo. Puts out 550-600 bhp.
Think it's in a CTR, but could be wrong.
I expect you'd get more info over in ITR forums or TypeR Forums
Think it's in a CTR, but could be wrong.
I expect you'd get more info over in ITR forums or TypeR Forums
Edited by PJ S on Sunday 7th October 21:55
itr-dc2.com definitely worth a go. PM Dixon on there...he competes in the Time Attack series in a DC2...did pretty well this year, too!!! 
But the short answer to your question is: Yes, 250bhp at the fly is achievable with enough money and silly enough cams...will probably be a trifle peaky though...
Reliability at that level...no idea...you're talking 140bhp/litre from a n/a engine...it's not going to be like granny's Civic!
If the regs allow, better bet is fit a Jackson Racing supercharger - 250bhp is a lot more straightforward and exploitable from one of them...more with some care and attention.
TBH though, if you're serious about competition then a DC2 is probably overkill as a base-car:-
- It's got stiffening which is redundant as soon as you fit a cage
- It's got a phenomenal engine which is redundant as soon as you change cams and crank.
- It's got bespoke springs/dampers which are going to be replaced.
- It's got great recaros which will be replaced.
...in short, you're taking a superb road-car and changing almost everything that makes it so good on the road. There'll be plenty of equally-good starting points which are shorter, lighter, AND cheaper to buy!
But the short answer to your question is: Yes, 250bhp at the fly is achievable with enough money and silly enough cams...will probably be a trifle peaky though...
Reliability at that level...no idea...you're talking 140bhp/litre from a n/a engine...it's not going to be like granny's Civic!
If the regs allow, better bet is fit a Jackson Racing supercharger - 250bhp is a lot more straightforward and exploitable from one of them...more with some care and attention.
TBH though, if you're serious about competition then a DC2 is probably overkill as a base-car:-
- It's got stiffening which is redundant as soon as you fit a cage
- It's got a phenomenal engine which is redundant as soon as you change cams and crank.
- It's got bespoke springs/dampers which are going to be replaced.
- It's got great recaros which will be replaced.
...in short, you're taking a superb road-car and changing almost everything that makes it so good on the road. There'll be plenty of equally-good starting points which are shorter, lighter, AND cheaper to buy!
havoc said:
TBH though, if you're serious about competition then a DC2 is probably overkill as a base-car:-
- It's got stiffening which is redundant as soon as you fit a cage
- It's got a phenomenal engine which is redundant as soon as you change cams and crank.
- It's got bespoke springs/dampers which are going to be replaced.
- It's got great recaros which will be replaced.
...in short, you're taking a superb road-car and changing almost everything that makes it so good on the road. There'll be plenty of equally-good starting points which are shorter, lighter, AND cheaper to buy!
You make a good argument Havoc. Hadn't thought of it like that.- It's got stiffening which is redundant as soon as you fit a cage
- It's got a phenomenal engine which is redundant as soon as you change cams and crank.
- It's got bespoke springs/dampers which are going to be replaced.
- It's got great recaros which will be replaced.
...in short, you're taking a superb road-car and changing almost everything that makes it so good on the road. There'll be plenty of equally-good starting points which are shorter, lighter, AND cheaper to buy!
The simplified regs mean I want up to 1800cc, and plenty of tuning potential (circa 220+bhp). The smaller and lighter the car the better .... reliability would also benifit the pocket, which was why I suggested the DC2. A 200bhp 106 / C2 is also in consideration.
I was going to say 205Mi16 until you said 1800cc. I'm guessing n/asp too?!?
Next question - does it have to be a 'standard engine', or are transplants allowed? I'm guessing so given the cars you mention...
If transplants, buy an old Civic (EG or EK...same basic frame as the 'teg), buy a B18C1 (5-door VTi engine), and then do everything to the B18C1 you would have done to the B18C6 ('teg engine).
Hell...buy an old Mk1/Mk2 CRX - even smaller and lighter, and the engine fits just fine.
(Worst case (no engine transplants allowed) the B16 VTi engine is a standard fit in Mk2 'rexes, and that's got almost as many tuning options as the 1.8 'teg engine...)
What else:-
- 106Gti not a bad idea...very light. Saxo VTS same car underneath.
- Fiesta Zetec S might be worth investigating...quite low, and pretty wide track for that class of car.
- Better still is maybe a Puma...although I think it's taller...
A few old-school oddball suggestions:-
- At the RallyShow at Chatsworth, I saw a Mk2 Escort with a 4AGE (AE86 Corolla) engine in it. Any in-line small-capacity 4 should fit in there OK...VHPD K-series maybe?!? Tuned Duratec?
- And if old Esky chassis are too pricey, how about something less-loved:-
- Sunbeam
- Chevette
- etc...
...all are lighter than the modern stuff while anything used in the past for race/rally should have a ready-designed cage available for fitting. That said, tinworm will be a bigger concern... Of course, this assumes rwd is permitted...
(In all honesty, a B18 engined 'rex is probably the best compromise)
Next question - does it have to be a 'standard engine', or are transplants allowed? I'm guessing so given the cars you mention...
If transplants, buy an old Civic (EG or EK...same basic frame as the 'teg), buy a B18C1 (5-door VTi engine), and then do everything to the B18C1 you would have done to the B18C6 ('teg engine).
Hell...buy an old Mk1/Mk2 CRX - even smaller and lighter, and the engine fits just fine.
(Worst case (no engine transplants allowed) the B16 VTi engine is a standard fit in Mk2 'rexes, and that's got almost as many tuning options as the 1.8 'teg engine...)
What else:-
- 106Gti not a bad idea...very light. Saxo VTS same car underneath.
- Fiesta Zetec S might be worth investigating...quite low, and pretty wide track for that class of car.
- Better still is maybe a Puma...although I think it's taller...
A few old-school oddball suggestions:-
- At the RallyShow at Chatsworth, I saw a Mk2 Escort with a 4AGE (AE86 Corolla) engine in it. Any in-line small-capacity 4 should fit in there OK...VHPD K-series maybe?!? Tuned Duratec?
- And if old Esky chassis are too pricey, how about something less-loved:-
- Sunbeam
- Chevette
- etc...
...all are lighter than the modern stuff while anything used in the past for race/rally should have a ready-designed cage available for fitting. That said, tinworm will be a bigger concern... Of course, this assumes rwd is permitted...
(In all honesty, a B18 engined 'rex is probably the best compromise)
Hmmm...which does bring the 'teg back into play as there aren't many highly-tunable 1800's around...and cubes DO help in those types of series...plus you can pretty much drive it straight out-of-the-box and do stuff bit-by-bit...
A Mk2 'rex VTi would definitely be worth investigating - very light, and B16 is eminently tunable, although lacks quite the torque of the B18.
A Mk2 'rex VTi would definitely be worth investigating - very light, and B16 is eminently tunable, although lacks quite the torque of the B18.
If you are still considering the DC2 ITR, this could be perfect for you.
http://itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33842
If your not a member, it's a race prepared shell that just requires engine & gearbox for £2500.
I would love to do something like this myself one day, think I need a job that pay's quite a bit more 1st.
http://itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33842
If your not a member, it's a race prepared shell that just requires engine & gearbox for £2500.
I would love to do something like this myself one day, think I need a job that pay's quite a bit more 1st.
If your staying N/A then ITB's, cams and mapping would probably see you near your target, but like others have said, it'll be very peaky. Not so much of an issue on the track I suppose, all depends what you want and what regs allow.
If you can go forced induction you'll attain your power target fairly easily and have a wedge of torque added to boot. Forged pistons and Rods are cheap enough from the US, £250 and £180 respectivly last time I checked plus delivery and customs charges. Also given the power you want only a small turbo would be needed, lag wouldnt be an issue. The B18 block is strong on all accounts too.
You may be able to use something like Hondata for the ECU, its basically a daughterboard type arrangement which enables realtime mapping and adds a whole host of features. The basic models for NA engines start at around £150. The all singing all dancing FI model is £300 and comes with wideband inputs, anti lag, launch control etc etc
If you can go forced induction you'll attain your power target fairly easily and have a wedge of torque added to boot. Forged pistons and Rods are cheap enough from the US, £250 and £180 respectivly last time I checked plus delivery and customs charges. Also given the power you want only a small turbo would be needed, lag wouldnt be an issue. The B18 block is strong on all accounts too.
You may be able to use something like Hondata for the ECU, its basically a daughterboard type arrangement which enables realtime mapping and adds a whole host of features. The basic models for NA engines start at around £150. The all singing all dancing FI model is £300 and comes with wideband inputs, anti lag, launch control etc etc
Roastie ITR said:
If you are still considering the DC2 ITR, this could be perfect for you.
http://itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33842
If your not a member, it's a race prepared shell that just requires engine & gearbox for £2500.
I would love to do something like this myself one day, think I need a job that pay's quite a bit more 1st.
My job barely meets the budget, but sacrificing a good road car, beer in the week, holidays and house upgrades is going to just about stretch there .... Mortgage will take a hit though http://itr-dc2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33842
If your not a member, it's a race prepared shell that just requires engine & gearbox for £2500.
I would love to do something like this myself one day, think I need a job that pay's quite a bit more 1st.
That topic about the race shell seems to have been deleted now, shame. Might be looking for a Civic Type R or Integra DC2 to simply strip out, bolt (or maybe weld) a cage, race seat, battery cut off & extinguisher in and go racing in something like the CSCC "Tin Tops" series. (http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/Tin%20Tops.html)
Don't want to go to any huge expense, just looking for some cheap fun in a robust car. Any ideas? Thought about a CRX challenge car but missed the last decent one that came up & a loyt of them are sheds now.
Don't want to go to any huge expense, just looking for some cheap fun in a robust car. Any ideas? Thought about a CRX challenge car but missed the last decent one that came up & a loyt of them are sheds now.
the teg takes a lot of money to get more than an extra 15bhp.It is a fairly light car to start so stripping to bones will prop not yield as much as other cars. The torsen diff does mean it is fantastic and easy to drive. It seems a car with the VAG 1.8T engine would suit the spec and easier to get more power out of it.
Don't particularly need more power - 200 Bhp would probably be competitive in the top class, except against some Integra DC5s. The light(ish) weight & handling would suffice at this level & there would be plenty of cars that I could probably battle with (MG Rovers, Alfa 156, Renault Clio Sports, Accord Type R etc in the top class & CRX, Rover 216 etc in Class B). I just want to consider a robust VFM car to race without having to spend a fortune. I know that there's lots of upgrades available for Hondas but I just want to consider whether its possible to have some fun cheaply & simply. I know that I'm never going to set the world on fire as a driver but I'm just investigating whether a standard(ish) Civic or DC2 would cut the mustard in a low level club series!!
As a comparison I have a Porsche 944 Turbo that is pretty quick & handles well but crashes about a bit over the bumps 'cause its too stiff for the road, really. On a track day, however, its probably a bit soft. Is a Type R a similar compromise?
As a comparison I have a Porsche 944 Turbo that is pretty quick & handles well but crashes about a bit over the bumps 'cause its too stiff for the road, really. On a track day, however, its probably a bit soft. Is a Type R a similar compromise?
civic type r's dont tend to crash about to much over bumps i found unless they are quite big ones which you should be avoiding in any car! the chassis is very stiff and has minimal role.
the handling in the wet is a bit larey (is that a word?) or can be but its all part of the fun of owning one!
i would love to drive a stripped out version as with even less weight it would have phenominal acceleration for its size and the engine. simple mods to the engine are simple as well! change the mid section of the exhaust for a spoons one (£200 roughly) and you instantly have an extra 20-25bhp bue to the standard mid section being so small!
a racing filter (approx £150 for a v.good one) will add an extra 20-25bhp (and sounds sooo good in v-tech) and you have as good as hit your bhp you wanted in a very lightweight and very good handling car with out adjusting anything else! however adjust things like suspension, brakes, etc (like your bound to do) and it should take most of the cars stated above!
the handling in the wet is a bit larey (is that a word?) or can be but its all part of the fun of owning one!
i would love to drive a stripped out version as with even less weight it would have phenominal acceleration for its size and the engine. simple mods to the engine are simple as well! change the mid section of the exhaust for a spoons one (£200 roughly) and you instantly have an extra 20-25bhp bue to the standard mid section being so small!
a racing filter (approx £150 for a v.good one) will add an extra 20-25bhp (and sounds sooo good in v-tech) and you have as good as hit your bhp you wanted in a very lightweight and very good handling car with out adjusting anything else! however adjust things like suspension, brakes, etc (like your bound to do) and it should take most of the cars stated above!
a few of my mates who have had them have claimed to gain anything from 35-50 bhp from them due to the fact the mid section of the exhaust is actually restricing the engine slightly and giving it slightly better fuel economy. therefore take it away and supposedly you gain more power! im only going from what i've heard but if its true then why not do it?
P.J. said:
I have heard with a filter and exhaust you can get increase in the mid range on a K20 but it needs a Re-map. The 3.5 to 5k is the bit that can gain 25bhp as set up for euro emmisions. Its not a top end gain.
that sounds more realistic.Honda VTEC engines generally dont respond that well to exhaust changes without a remap to take advantage of the new flow, and going too big will kill what torque they have to begin with. Its not like a turbo engine where bigger is generally better due to reduction in back pressure.
WRT to air filters VTEC's are very sensitive to changes in intake temperature, most of the cheaper cone filter type kits result in you sucking in hot air from around the engine, the gains are to be had from the more expensive cold airbox setups with decent cold air feeds and heat shielding.
Edited by Marf on Friday 21st December 09:41
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