Integra dc2 vs dc5?
Discussion
havoc said:
Ummm...that's a tough call. And yes the FD2 replaces the DC2 - needed a 4-door car so either the NSX or DC2 went...which was strangely a harder choice than you'd think!
My FD2 is running on AST suspension, not OE*, so possibly not entirely representative...but then I'd guess 75% of UK cars have modified suspension of some sort... Comparison vs FD2 and MkV GTi as follows:-
- Steering is hyper-responsive - not a super-quick rack like a TVR or S2000, just zero slack in the system...and I do mean zero - I want to get underneath and see if it's rose-jointed not bushed!!! You dial-into it pretty quick, so it's not a problem, but be aware it makes other cars seem 'lazy' afterwards. Feedback not a patch on the DC2, but better than the Golf.
- Throttle response is typical modern DBW - all the response in the top 50% of pedal-travel, like you've got a "Sport" button permanently pressed. Contributes to the "up for it" style of the car, but does mean you need to concentrate to drive smoothly, certainly if you've not got the right shoes on, and doesn't make HnT as intuitive as the DC2...but pedals are better-spaced than the Golf and the brake-pedal is a better platform for HnT. There's also no slack at the top of the pedal, so coming from another car you over-rev for the first 100yds.
- Brakes show similar stopping power to DC2, despite 4-pot Brembos up-front. Initial response not quite as good but once warm they're good and they're beautifully progressive. But to be fair I've not driven a 'mainstream/affordable' road car that has better standard brakes than a DC2, Lotuses excepted.
- Gearshift is very EP3/DC5 - excellent, nice weight/throw/precision. Gate is offset slightly towards the driver vs most other cars I've driven, which makes picking 1st from 3rd tricky initially, but again you pick it up within a few miles.
- Chassis is where I'm a little torn. Push it REALLY hard and the back end gets in on the act in a semi-DC2 way, quelling any understeer through fast corners before it even appears. Smooth / reasonable tarmac in 3rd and 4th gear and the car is SUPERB...like a grown-up DC2...I'd expect this car to take some serious scalps on-track. In the wet the back-end feels even looser (might just be my car's geo), which is fun but not relaxing if you're trying to push in the wet (to be fair, if you're doing that then you should be on your game), but never snappy. Think of it as a DC2-R-R, I guess...
- Traction...is a little disappointing, coming from a DC2. Even with the diff, you'll get some understeer out of roundabouts if you nail it in 2nd (NEVER did in either of my 'tegs) - extra torque and MacPherson struts not double-wishbones to blame, I guess...but whereas in the dry the DC2 just didn't know understeer, the FD2 needs to be coaxed through 2nd gear corners. Similar story off the line in 1st as well - need to pour the power in more than the DC2. Not as bad as the Golf (nor the EP3), but not as infallible as you'd expect a diff-equipped car to be...
- Torque steer...exists, but is a gentle writhing not a proper 'pulling' at the wheel. A little unruly but not nasty...
- Driving position is very good - cabin is driver-focused, controls are in the right places, visibility pretty good (except you've no idea where the bonnet is!) Seat not as good as the DC2's Recaros - a little wider in the cushion, which is nice, but it's got the lever-operated back-tilt like the EP3, which makes it harder to find the right back position, plus you find yourself 'slouching' inadvertently a little more and having to straighten up - I guess the stiffer cushion means more submarining-effect.
- Interior not quite as nice as the Golf but better than even DC5 (DC2 IS archaic) and nicely spacious...similar interior room to Golf, probably an extra inch or so rear legroom, stowage bit better than Golf, boot bigger than E90 saloon with decent aperture. but no folding seats.
- Costs-wise it should have good residuals and will hopefully be typical Honda to run. But then the DC2 won't depreciate if looked after and the Golf's residuals are class-leading. So it's just 2x insurance/tax/MOT to consider in your position.
If the above sounds like I've got a downer on the car to some degree, then I've probably overstated the negatives - it's a real driver's car and is very enjoyable (and a lot more interesting than e.g. a 330i - perhaps no better as an overall ownership experience, but something to make each drive more interesting than it otherwise would be, just like the DC2), it just feels very 'modern' (I'm an analogue chap when it comes to driving, despite being <40) and perhaps a little too stiff / track focused for a 4-door saloon... But compare it to a Megane R26R and I'm sure the +ve's/-ve's would be very different...
My 2p for you is I miss the DC2 - I've done 9 years and nearly 100k across 2 of them, know the car inside out and consider it to be the pinnacle of FWD motoring, bar nothing. If you don't need to sell yours (and assuming it's a good one), then I probably wouldn't. But if you want to change to 1-car only, and you'll do some trackdays in it, then I'd definitely have a very good look at the FD2 - it's as close to a 4-door 'teg as you'll find...
I'm hoping to do some back-to-backs with a friend and his RX8, which should prove informative from a different side of things. Will let you know...
* OE rear dampers are woeful for bumpy UK roads, original Litchfields' solution was replace springs and dampers all round - stiffer springs, adjustable dampers. Current club consensus is stick with OE all-round except for rear dampers, where you fit Koni Yellows. I've got some OE suspension and am going to try this later in the summer as the ASTs are a little TOO stiff for UK bumpy B-roads, meaning you often need to back off shortly before you get to licence-losing speeds as the car feels like it's struggling to keep up with the road...
Thanks very much for taking the time to write the comparison, I really appreciate it. For me what you said pretty much sums up how I feel about the DC2. I've just been out for a forty minute drive on fairly quiet roads and you can just place the car exactly where you want it, plant the throttle and it just sticks. For the money there is very little that gets close to the DC2 in terms of driver involvement. Current values make them utter bargains. My car was owned by a previous ITR-DC2 member and it seems to have been over serviced and pampered which is nice to know.My FD2 is running on AST suspension, not OE*, so possibly not entirely representative...but then I'd guess 75% of UK cars have modified suspension of some sort... Comparison vs FD2 and MkV GTi as follows:-
- Steering is hyper-responsive - not a super-quick rack like a TVR or S2000, just zero slack in the system...and I do mean zero - I want to get underneath and see if it's rose-jointed not bushed!!! You dial-into it pretty quick, so it's not a problem, but be aware it makes other cars seem 'lazy' afterwards. Feedback not a patch on the DC2, but better than the Golf.
- Throttle response is typical modern DBW - all the response in the top 50% of pedal-travel, like you've got a "Sport" button permanently pressed. Contributes to the "up for it" style of the car, but does mean you need to concentrate to drive smoothly, certainly if you've not got the right shoes on, and doesn't make HnT as intuitive as the DC2...but pedals are better-spaced than the Golf and the brake-pedal is a better platform for HnT. There's also no slack at the top of the pedal, so coming from another car you over-rev for the first 100yds.
- Brakes show similar stopping power to DC2, despite 4-pot Brembos up-front. Initial response not quite as good but once warm they're good and they're beautifully progressive. But to be fair I've not driven a 'mainstream/affordable' road car that has better standard brakes than a DC2, Lotuses excepted.
- Gearshift is very EP3/DC5 - excellent, nice weight/throw/precision. Gate is offset slightly towards the driver vs most other cars I've driven, which makes picking 1st from 3rd tricky initially, but again you pick it up within a few miles.
- Chassis is where I'm a little torn. Push it REALLY hard and the back end gets in on the act in a semi-DC2 way, quelling any understeer through fast corners before it even appears. Smooth / reasonable tarmac in 3rd and 4th gear and the car is SUPERB...like a grown-up DC2...I'd expect this car to take some serious scalps on-track. In the wet the back-end feels even looser (might just be my car's geo), which is fun but not relaxing if you're trying to push in the wet (to be fair, if you're doing that then you should be on your game), but never snappy. Think of it as a DC2-R-R, I guess...
- Traction...is a little disappointing, coming from a DC2. Even with the diff, you'll get some understeer out of roundabouts if you nail it in 2nd (NEVER did in either of my 'tegs) - extra torque and MacPherson struts not double-wishbones to blame, I guess...but whereas in the dry the DC2 just didn't know understeer, the FD2 needs to be coaxed through 2nd gear corners. Similar story off the line in 1st as well - need to pour the power in more than the DC2. Not as bad as the Golf (nor the EP3), but not as infallible as you'd expect a diff-equipped car to be...
- Torque steer...exists, but is a gentle writhing not a proper 'pulling' at the wheel. A little unruly but not nasty...
- Driving position is very good - cabin is driver-focused, controls are in the right places, visibility pretty good (except you've no idea where the bonnet is!) Seat not as good as the DC2's Recaros - a little wider in the cushion, which is nice, but it's got the lever-operated back-tilt like the EP3, which makes it harder to find the right back position, plus you find yourself 'slouching' inadvertently a little more and having to straighten up - I guess the stiffer cushion means more submarining-effect.
- Interior not quite as nice as the Golf but better than even DC5 (DC2 IS archaic) and nicely spacious...similar interior room to Golf, probably an extra inch or so rear legroom, stowage bit better than Golf, boot bigger than E90 saloon with decent aperture. but no folding seats.
- Costs-wise it should have good residuals and will hopefully be typical Honda to run. But then the DC2 won't depreciate if looked after and the Golf's residuals are class-leading. So it's just 2x insurance/tax/MOT to consider in your position.
If the above sounds like I've got a downer on the car to some degree, then I've probably overstated the negatives - it's a real driver's car and is very enjoyable (and a lot more interesting than e.g. a 330i - perhaps no better as an overall ownership experience, but something to make each drive more interesting than it otherwise would be, just like the DC2), it just feels very 'modern' (I'm an analogue chap when it comes to driving, despite being <40) and perhaps a little too stiff / track focused for a 4-door saloon... But compare it to a Megane R26R and I'm sure the +ve's/-ve's would be very different...
My 2p for you is I miss the DC2 - I've done 9 years and nearly 100k across 2 of them, know the car inside out and consider it to be the pinnacle of FWD motoring, bar nothing. If you don't need to sell yours (and assuming it's a good one), then I probably wouldn't. But if you want to change to 1-car only, and you'll do some trackdays in it, then I'd definitely have a very good look at the FD2 - it's as close to a 4-door 'teg as you'll find...
I'm hoping to do some back-to-backs with a friend and his RX8, which should prove informative from a different side of things. Will let you know...
* OE rear dampers are woeful for bumpy UK roads, original Litchfields' solution was replace springs and dampers all round - stiffer springs, adjustable dampers. Current club consensus is stick with OE all-round except for rear dampers, where you fit Koni Yellows. I've got some OE suspension and am going to try this later in the summer as the ASTs are a little TOO stiff for UK bumpy B-roads, meaning you often need to back off shortly before you get to licence-losing speeds as the car feels like it's struggling to keep up with the road...
The FD2 seems to tick a lot of boxes, however I didn't realise the seats didn't fold down. That's pretty much the only negative I can see. The fact it has five doors, a decent size boot and Honda reliability means it might well be a car I need to own in the future. The only criticism I can find of the DC2 is that I'd prefer the gear shifter to be an inch higher so it falls to hand. The EP3 shifter had the perfect position for me so coming from that was always going to be a hard act to follow.
Thanks again.
Not a problem. I'd say there's a good chance I may buy a 3rd 'teg in the future if circumstances permit.
Realised earlier I forgot to mention the engine, which is an utter peach...feels a lot more than 10% bigger than the DC2s - nice fat torque curve for a VTEC, yet still pulls at the top-end. 6 ratios probably help too...
Sound...is very fruity with good volume in VTEC, but a lot more metallic than the DC2's 'snarl' (cold winter mornings
...still recall the first VTEC of the day in the 'teg after she'd warmed up, coming off a Dual-carriageway roundabout and winding up through 2nd and 3rd...and :cough: ...). Think 4-pot versions of E46 M3 vs NSX, if that's a good reference point. It's got a little bit of touring car to it, but also a bit of chavvy after-market, if you were being unkind.
Realised earlier I forgot to mention the engine, which is an utter peach...feels a lot more than 10% bigger than the DC2s - nice fat torque curve for a VTEC, yet still pulls at the top-end. 6 ratios probably help too...
Sound...is very fruity with good volume in VTEC, but a lot more metallic than the DC2's 'snarl' (cold winter mornings
...still recall the first VTEC of the day in the 'teg after she'd warmed up, coming off a Dual-carriageway roundabout and winding up through 2nd and 3rd...and :cough: ...). Think 4-pot versions of E46 M3 vs NSX, if that's a good reference point. It's got a little bit of touring car to it, but also a bit of chavvy after-market, if you were being unkind.havoc said:
Not a problem. I'd say there's a good chance I may buy a 3rd 'teg in the future if circumstances permit.
Realised earlier I forgot to mention the engine, which is an utter peach...feels a lot more than 10% bigger than the DC2s - nice fat torque curve for a VTEC, yet still pulls at the top-end. 6 ratios probably help too...
Sound...is very fruity with good volume in VTEC, but a lot more metallic than the DC2's 'snarl' (cold winter mornings ...still recall the first VTEC of the day in the 'teg after she'd warmed up, coming off a Dual-carriageway roundabout and winding up through 2nd and 3rd...and :cough: ...). Think 4-pot versions of E46 M3 vs NSX, if that's a good reference point. It's got a little bit of touring car to it, but also a bit of chavvy after-market, if you were being unkind.
I think the B series sounds more mechanical. There's more of an electrical whine (hard to describe) to the K20. I noticed it when DC5's and EP3's were being moved about when my car was serviced. Realised earlier I forgot to mention the engine, which is an utter peach...feels a lot more than 10% bigger than the DC2s - nice fat torque curve for a VTEC, yet still pulls at the top-end. 6 ratios probably help too...
Sound...is very fruity with good volume in VTEC, but a lot more metallic than the DC2's 'snarl' (cold winter mornings
...still recall the first VTEC of the day in the 'teg after she'd warmed up, coming off a Dual-carriageway roundabout and winding up through 2nd and 3rd...and :cough: ...). Think 4-pot versions of E46 M3 vs NSX, if that's a good reference point. It's got a little bit of touring car to it, but also a bit of chavvy after-market, if you were being unkind.That would complete the garage rather nicely DC2, FD2 and NSX.
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